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Semi-interesting discussion on 98.5 vs WEEI
- Thread starter EnterCommunicator
- Start date
Dan Kennedy: "You can't miss how awful WEEI's signal is. I don't know why Entercom hasn't
moved them to an FM signal" (in Boston)
'GBH didn't have to go far to get footage of Kahn and Hokey Wolfe; EEI is right across the street!
moved them to an FM signal" (in Boston)
'GBH didn't have to go far to get footage of Kahn and Hokey Wolfe; EEI is right across the street!
MassMusicMan
Banned
LOL at "98 point 5" and "N-E-S-N." Sheesh, at least pretend that you actually care about commercial stations.
I agree WEEI needs a FM signal in Boston. On the website linked in the first post people commented they listen to 98.5 because of the stronger signal. I know WEEI has two things over WBZ and thats Red Sox and Celtics.
M
musicman3355
Guest
The question is, what station would Entercom flip for a simulcast of 'EEI? I highly doubt they would flip WKAF/WAAF, and Mike FM is doing pretty well with its format.
At the risk of rehashing an often-discussed topic, there isn't a solid, obvious move for Entercom to make when it comes to getting the WEEI content onto an FM signal. I suppose that's rather the point: if there were a solid, obvious move...it would've been done already! ;D
But Entercom owns 680, 850, 93.7, 97.7, and 107.3. Only the AM properties are truly "Boston" signals, and both have significant coverage issues in the Metrowest markets due to historical issues. Both 680 and 850 were built long ago when there was very little population west of their transmitters, and have virtually no chance of ever moving their transmitters or improving their westbound signals.
In any major city, including Boston, having your signal be physically located close to the population center...usually "downtown"...is important because you frequently have a lot of steel and concrete that causes severe multipath interference issues to FM signals. Plus, in Boston's case, you have the cluster of stations on the Prudential tower causing a significant zone of blanketing interference to all non-Pru stations, right over the population center.
With that in mind, neither 93.7 nor 97.7 are technically close enough to truly be solid "Boston" signals. 93.7 is further away (Saugus, where Rt.1 crosses Rt.128) but is is a higher-wattage (34,000 watts) Class B signal. 97.7 is closer (Great Blue Hill) but is a weaker (2050 watts) Class A signal. 97.7 especially is far too small to use on its own for the purpose of competing with 98.5; realistically it needs to be paired with a bigger signal, hence why its simulcasting 107.3. Speaking of 107.3, it has a great signal across most of central Mass and is decent across a lot of eastern Mass, but it loses too much in Boston proper and needs that 97.7 simulcast.
Now, toss in the formats and things get even more bleak. 93.7 has, by all accounts, a profitable format in the DJ-less "Mike". It's not a super-high ratings-getter, but it does well enough and the absence of staff means lower gross can still mean greater net revenue.
107.3/97.7 also have a long-standing and, allegedly, profitable rock format. Given the demise of WBCN, one wonders just how profitable the rock music format is these days...but even so, the 107.3/97.7 simulcast is not the equivalent to 98.5's superior, centrally-located signal. Would it be a big improvement over 850? Undoubtedly. But that brings to our next problem:
If you move WEEI off 850, what does Entercom then put on 850? Liberal talk has generally fared poorly across the US, and did badly in Boston when Air America existed. Granted, AA was on a pair of gawdawful signals...but I've always thought the audience for libtalk was already loyal to the solid NPR outlets Boston has; even if AA was on a great signal it probably would've have done well enough to succeed. Putting conservative talk on 850 just means they compete with themselves given what's on 680...and 680's ratings haven't done terribly well to begin with, especially considering there's a strong competitor on 96.9. Putting a sports format (presumably a different one from the WEEI-proper format) again just means they're competing with themselves. And there really aren't any other serious format options for 850 besides those three; all the others are niche formats that won't bring anywhere near the revenue a signal that big should command.
I suppose Entercom could try and sell 850 but they'd get a pittance for it: 99.5 up in Lowell went for only $14mil to WGBH last year. I can't imagine 850 would sell for more than that...quite possibly a lot less.
On the flip side, they could try and buy another FM signal. One of the true "Boston" stations. But who'd sell? The only owners of signals worth looking at are Harvard University (WHRB, and actually it's an alumni council that's legally separate from Harvard), CBS, Clear Channel and Greater Media. WHRB, will - of course - NEVER sell their signal. CBS won't because they own 98.5 and they won't sell to a direct competitor. Clear Channel and Greater Media might sell...but the price would very high because all their Boston FM signals are, supposedly, reasonably profitable and thus they have no reason to sell until Entercom overpays substantially.
So in the end, Entercom is really stuck between a rock and a hard place here. There are very good reasons why they should have their flagship product (WEEI) on an FM signal but there's very, very big obstacles in the way of that. Things would have to get much worse...either in 850's ratings or overall economically...before it could be really justified.
But Entercom owns 680, 850, 93.7, 97.7, and 107.3. Only the AM properties are truly "Boston" signals, and both have significant coverage issues in the Metrowest markets due to historical issues. Both 680 and 850 were built long ago when there was very little population west of their transmitters, and have virtually no chance of ever moving their transmitters or improving their westbound signals.
In any major city, including Boston, having your signal be physically located close to the population center...usually "downtown"...is important because you frequently have a lot of steel and concrete that causes severe multipath interference issues to FM signals. Plus, in Boston's case, you have the cluster of stations on the Prudential tower causing a significant zone of blanketing interference to all non-Pru stations, right over the population center.
With that in mind, neither 93.7 nor 97.7 are technically close enough to truly be solid "Boston" signals. 93.7 is further away (Saugus, where Rt.1 crosses Rt.128) but is is a higher-wattage (34,000 watts) Class B signal. 97.7 is closer (Great Blue Hill) but is a weaker (2050 watts) Class A signal. 97.7 especially is far too small to use on its own for the purpose of competing with 98.5; realistically it needs to be paired with a bigger signal, hence why its simulcasting 107.3. Speaking of 107.3, it has a great signal across most of central Mass and is decent across a lot of eastern Mass, but it loses too much in Boston proper and needs that 97.7 simulcast.
Now, toss in the formats and things get even more bleak. 93.7 has, by all accounts, a profitable format in the DJ-less "Mike". It's not a super-high ratings-getter, but it does well enough and the absence of staff means lower gross can still mean greater net revenue.
107.3/97.7 also have a long-standing and, allegedly, profitable rock format. Given the demise of WBCN, one wonders just how profitable the rock music format is these days...but even so, the 107.3/97.7 simulcast is not the equivalent to 98.5's superior, centrally-located signal. Would it be a big improvement over 850? Undoubtedly. But that brings to our next problem:
If you move WEEI off 850, what does Entercom then put on 850? Liberal talk has generally fared poorly across the US, and did badly in Boston when Air America existed. Granted, AA was on a pair of gawdawful signals...but I've always thought the audience for libtalk was already loyal to the solid NPR outlets Boston has; even if AA was on a great signal it probably would've have done well enough to succeed. Putting conservative talk on 850 just means they compete with themselves given what's on 680...and 680's ratings haven't done terribly well to begin with, especially considering there's a strong competitor on 96.9. Putting a sports format (presumably a different one from the WEEI-proper format) again just means they're competing with themselves. And there really aren't any other serious format options for 850 besides those three; all the others are niche formats that won't bring anywhere near the revenue a signal that big should command.
I suppose Entercom could try and sell 850 but they'd get a pittance for it: 99.5 up in Lowell went for only $14mil to WGBH last year. I can't imagine 850 would sell for more than that...quite possibly a lot less.
On the flip side, they could try and buy another FM signal. One of the true "Boston" stations. But who'd sell? The only owners of signals worth looking at are Harvard University (WHRB, and actually it's an alumni council that's legally separate from Harvard), CBS, Clear Channel and Greater Media. WHRB, will - of course - NEVER sell their signal. CBS won't because they own 98.5 and they won't sell to a direct competitor. Clear Channel and Greater Media might sell...but the price would very high because all their Boston FM signals are, supposedly, reasonably profitable and thus they have no reason to sell until Entercom overpays substantially.
So in the end, Entercom is really stuck between a rock and a hard place here. There are very good reasons why they should have their flagship product (WEEI) on an FM signal but there's very, very big obstacles in the way of that. Things would have to get much worse...either in 850's ratings or overall economically...before it could be really justified.
The 93.7 trans. location is in Peabody not Saugus, actually. Lakeland Park Dr is just off rt 1
and you can get to it off Rt 128 by taking Centennial Dr exit to Farm Rd., etc. Also it is very
close to I-95 (this is just north of the spot where 95 separates from 128 to proceed north)
Agreed about the location of the 680 and 850 sticks and the population of Boston; indeed there
is a move to the suburbs and the exurbs and it is here where people may have trouble
picking it up, but a lot of area in Boston proper is covered fine with these signals (even if
Howie says "you can't pick us up west of Kenmore Sq. at night". An exaggeration.) Signals
like 1200 and the recently upgraded 1060 can cover a lot of people--even if 1200 seems to
send its signal to the fishies, remember there's a town called Boston right in the path! It can do
well even up here in Beverly. And I was getting 1060 up in Manchester NH recently (car radio,
little interference)
93.7 may not be considered a Boston signal but it's only 17 miles from downtown*;
not too many towns away. From Peabody: Saugus, Revere, Boston. I would agree 97.7 might have to be paired with another signal (in re-broadcasting or broadcasting WEEI)
And yes Mike does well for EEI. But I wish they'd just alter it slightly: Carry the Mike music but
pick up Sox games at least (// with 850). Why not? Just the games, they don't even really need the pre- or post-games... Or would it turn off the audience that wants to hear In Da Klub or You Give Love
a Bad Name or The Tide Is High?
Agreed with the rest of your rock and hard place scenarios. btw it was said recently the Sox
and EEI did a re-working of the contract that may extend it a couple years beyond what they had. One intent was obvious: Entercom didn't want to lose Sox to a company WITH a powerful FM in the area.
CBS, 98.5
You do mention the multi-path FM signal issues in Boston, etc. In my own case as I've explained
I work in N. Reading but can't really pick up WEEI on workroom floor (WRKO? A little, with a mini
FM transmitter to help). 104.9? Not on workroom floor. Even bringing in that HD portable
and trying to get WEEI on the WMKK HD-3, nope. Nope. But if they were on 93.7...
If the Pats have a Monday night football game, I can hear it on 98.5. The Red Sox could be in
the World Series and I'd have trouble getting it on workroom floor...unless maybe they shifted
'em to RKO, and even then...
*--Google maps says it's 16.9 miles from Lakeland Park Dr. to Beacon St., Boston via US 1 to Rt 99 etc
and you can get to it off Rt 128 by taking Centennial Dr exit to Farm Rd., etc. Also it is very
close to I-95 (this is just north of the spot where 95 separates from 128 to proceed north)
Agreed about the location of the 680 and 850 sticks and the population of Boston; indeed there
is a move to the suburbs and the exurbs and it is here where people may have trouble
picking it up, but a lot of area in Boston proper is covered fine with these signals (even if
Howie says "you can't pick us up west of Kenmore Sq. at night". An exaggeration.) Signals
like 1200 and the recently upgraded 1060 can cover a lot of people--even if 1200 seems to
send its signal to the fishies, remember there's a town called Boston right in the path! It can do
well even up here in Beverly. And I was getting 1060 up in Manchester NH recently (car radio,
little interference)
93.7 may not be considered a Boston signal but it's only 17 miles from downtown*;
not too many towns away. From Peabody: Saugus, Revere, Boston. I would agree 97.7 might have to be paired with another signal (in re-broadcasting or broadcasting WEEI)
And yes Mike does well for EEI. But I wish they'd just alter it slightly: Carry the Mike music but
pick up Sox games at least (// with 850). Why not? Just the games, they don't even really need the pre- or post-games... Or would it turn off the audience that wants to hear In Da Klub or You Give Love
a Bad Name or The Tide Is High?
Agreed with the rest of your rock and hard place scenarios. btw it was said recently the Sox
and EEI did a re-working of the contract that may extend it a couple years beyond what they had. One intent was obvious: Entercom didn't want to lose Sox to a company WITH a powerful FM in the area.
CBS, 98.5
You do mention the multi-path FM signal issues in Boston, etc. In my own case as I've explained
I work in N. Reading but can't really pick up WEEI on workroom floor (WRKO? A little, with a mini
FM transmitter to help). 104.9? Not on workroom floor. Even bringing in that HD portable
and trying to get WEEI on the WMKK HD-3, nope. Nope. But if they were on 93.7...
If the Pats have a Monday night football game, I can hear it on 98.5. The Red Sox could be in
the World Series and I'd have trouble getting it on workroom floor...unless maybe they shifted
'em to RKO, and even then...
*--Google maps says it's 16.9 miles from Lakeland Park Dr. to Beacon St., Boston via US 1 to Rt 99 etc
Back in 2004 I worked in an office building in Burlington right on the Bedford line. Perhaps a mile or so north of the Burlington Mall. The place was full of CRT computer monitors and desktop computers and server computers like a lot of white-collar companies. And I couldn't even get WRKO 680, day or night, despite being able to SEE the towers from my desk quite easily. And I had a good tabletop radio on my desk, and I checked: we weren't in the null of their pattern. Forget about WEEI 850 several miles to the south or even WBZ's 1030 flamethrower signal.
However, one guy who sat in a window cube put his radio on the windowsill and could get most AM stations easily. Move it six inches inward and everything disappeared into a roar of static. AM radio is just very, very susceptible to RF interference. It's also beaten hard by buildings with a lot of metal in their construction; like most office buildings or industrial buildings.
Both WEEI and WRKO do cover a lot of people, this is true. What they don't cover is Metrowest (not after dark). And Metrowest is a pretty lucrative area: Wellesley, Weston, Concord, etc. It hurts quite a lot to not be heard in those towns. Adding another AM that could be heard in Metrowest after dark wouldn't hurt...that's why the Sox are on WCRN. But the bottom line is that no AM signal in Boston (save for perhaps WBZ 1030) can realistically compete with a solid FM signal. The inherent limitations of AM are just too big to overcome.
However, one guy who sat in a window cube put his radio on the windowsill and could get most AM stations easily. Move it six inches inward and everything disappeared into a roar of static. AM radio is just very, very susceptible to RF interference. It's also beaten hard by buildings with a lot of metal in their construction; like most office buildings or industrial buildings.
Both WEEI and WRKO do cover a lot of people, this is true. What they don't cover is Metrowest (not after dark). And Metrowest is a pretty lucrative area: Wellesley, Weston, Concord, etc. It hurts quite a lot to not be heard in those towns. Adding another AM that could be heard in Metrowest after dark wouldn't hurt...that's why the Sox are on WCRN. But the bottom line is that no AM signal in Boston (save for perhaps WBZ 1030) can realistically compete with a solid FM signal. The inherent limitations of AM are just too big to overcome.
We have had people complain here about not being able to pick up some AM stations at work due to
"new lighting" etc...From 1986-90 we were fine because our post office facility was in Woburn and I think the games were on WRKO--and we could actually see the RKO sticks from the parking lot! Later got moved to EEI, then back to RKO--but soon enough back to EEI and I _assure_ you
the presence of a competitor to WEEI had nothing to do with it :
Amazing you couldn't pick up RKO despite being so close to the sticks!
(Keep in mind where I am, we CAN put a radio nr edge of building--or certainly in lunch room--
and pick up WEEI and we can either stop in to hear the score, or record it (mini boom box) and
hear back later. On one of the baseball playoff games, I found I could pick up WEEI only if
I stood the radio "on end", right up against edge of the building.
Dear WEEI: I might be able to listen to you. IF I COULD PICK YOU UP.
The lunchroom at work has big windows and I sit near them. I could pick up some of the
distant stations, too, like 1050 NYC, 1210 Phil, etc.
The location I mentioned nr edge of building could pick up stations from NY, Chicago, or
Phil. if we tried, though we couldn't stay there and listen to the game. Again, use the
AM-FM-Cass. mini boombox to hear back later. Swell. Thanks Entercom! Yeah I'd much
rather hear I Ain't No Holla Back Girl on 93.7 instead.
>>What they don't cover is Metrowest (not after dark).
As I found out one Martin Luther King day when the Celts had a 3 pm game on WRKO (flagship
at the time). I was out for a drive and for awhile picked up Howie on what was then WEIM 1280,
but that faded as I headed toward Weston, Wellesley, etc. (and eventually toward Boston).
Finally the game ended and I could hear Howie on 680. It was maybe 5:30, 5:45...I don't think he had WCRN yet. Oh
and speaking of WCRN...
>>.that's why the Sox are on WCRN
They are _no longer on WCRN_*. I think they weren't on at all this past year. They were on
the AM 1440 in Worc but not on 830. 830 is being used by Entercom for those listeners
who can't pick up Howie after dark; he tells listeners to tune to 830 (or 95.1 from the Cape)
to hear his show "when our signal fades away as it does very early this time of year".
Anyway, the Sox were not on WCRN this year.
http://www.ask.com/wiki/WCRN
>>From 2007 through 2009, WCRN shared the Worcester affiliation of the Boston Red Sox radio network with WEEI satellite station WVEI
But not 2010.
I'll add that in the room in the back where we put a radio to try and pick up the Sox on WEEI,
even that was very tough. But not far away we could pick up one station clear as a bell,
just to the right of WEEI...the one that had John "It is High, It Is Far, It is Gone" Sterling
and Suzyn "Rajah Clemens is In George Steinbrenner's Box, Oh My Goodness Gracious"
Waldman. WCBS. That's right, the Yanks came in well. Sox? Not so much. But why should
listeners in North Reading get a good signal of the hometown team...?
*--someone on here named "WCRiNsider" was saying WCRN lost the Sox. Didn't believe him.
Guess what; he was right!
"new lighting" etc...From 1986-90 we were fine because our post office facility was in Woburn and I think the games were on WRKO--and we could actually see the RKO sticks from the parking lot! Later got moved to EEI, then back to RKO--but soon enough back to EEI and I _assure_ you
the presence of a competitor to WEEI had nothing to do with it :
Amazing you couldn't pick up RKO despite being so close to the sticks!
(Keep in mind where I am, we CAN put a radio nr edge of building--or certainly in lunch room--
and pick up WEEI and we can either stop in to hear the score, or record it (mini boom box) and
hear back later. On one of the baseball playoff games, I found I could pick up WEEI only if
I stood the radio "on end", right up against edge of the building.
Dear WEEI: I might be able to listen to you. IF I COULD PICK YOU UP.
The lunchroom at work has big windows and I sit near them. I could pick up some of the
distant stations, too, like 1050 NYC, 1210 Phil, etc.
The location I mentioned nr edge of building could pick up stations from NY, Chicago, or
Phil. if we tried, though we couldn't stay there and listen to the game. Again, use the
AM-FM-Cass. mini boombox to hear back later. Swell. Thanks Entercom! Yeah I'd much
rather hear I Ain't No Holla Back Girl on 93.7 instead.
>>What they don't cover is Metrowest (not after dark).
As I found out one Martin Luther King day when the Celts had a 3 pm game on WRKO (flagship
at the time). I was out for a drive and for awhile picked up Howie on what was then WEIM 1280,
but that faded as I headed toward Weston, Wellesley, etc. (and eventually toward Boston).
Finally the game ended and I could hear Howie on 680. It was maybe 5:30, 5:45...I don't think he had WCRN yet. Oh
and speaking of WCRN...
>>.that's why the Sox are on WCRN
They are _no longer on WCRN_*. I think they weren't on at all this past year. They were on
the AM 1440 in Worc but not on 830. 830 is being used by Entercom for those listeners
who can't pick up Howie after dark; he tells listeners to tune to 830 (or 95.1 from the Cape)
to hear his show "when our signal fades away as it does very early this time of year".
Anyway, the Sox were not on WCRN this year.
http://www.ask.com/wiki/WCRN
>>From 2007 through 2009, WCRN shared the Worcester affiliation of the Boston Red Sox radio network with WEEI satellite station WVEI
But not 2010.
I'll add that in the room in the back where we put a radio to try and pick up the Sox on WEEI,
even that was very tough. But not far away we could pick up one station clear as a bell,
just to the right of WEEI...the one that had John "It is High, It Is Far, It is Gone" Sterling
and Suzyn "Rajah Clemens is In George Steinbrenner's Box, Oh My Goodness Gracious"
Waldman. WCBS. That's right, the Yanks came in well. Sox? Not so much. But why should
listeners in North Reading get a good signal of the hometown team...?
*--someone on here named "WCRiNsider" was saying WCRN lost the Sox. Didn't believe him.
Guess what; he was right!
Ah. I didn't know about WCRN not having the Sox anymore...I live near Rochester, rather well outside WCRN's range. : What little Sox listening I can do is solely by lousy skywave from WTIC. And it's pretty lousy...I'm still within the skywave/groundwave interference zone, but just 20 miles to the west the groundwave disappears and WTIC comes in pretty strong after dark.
Oh how I wish WBZ AM had the Sox...I can get WBZ in HD in some places around here!
What little Sox listening I can do is solely by lousy skywave from WTIC. And it's pretty lousy...I'm still within the skywave/groundwave interference zone, but just 20 miles to the west the groundwave disappears and WTIC comes in pretty strong after dark.Oh how I wish WBZ AM had the Sox...I can get WBZ in HD in some places around here!
That would be great if WBZ 1030 had the Red Sox. Why doesn't CBS Radio Boston ever get the radio rights? A lot of markets where CBS has radio stations they have the rights to the baseball team. NY Mets on WFAN, NY Yanks on WCBS, St. Louis Cards on KMOX, Phillies on WPHT, not sure where else they have rights.
If CBS got the Red Sox they would prob put it on their sports FM for signal quality and the fact that the FM is a sports station. WBZ-AM used to have Bruins but they and Patriots (were on WBCN)
shifted to 98.5 and it allows WBZ-AM to do talk (Dan Rea)....though I know what you mean.
It would put the Sox on in many states etc
aaron: yup, no prob; I have managed to pick up WTIC when traveling in Ohio, etc.; not always clear. I know one time I was in Baltimore area and tuned to 1080 to hear primary election
results (Joe Lieberman, etc.) and it came in faintly (no splashover from WBAL but this was
maybe before I-BlOCk? If they have IBOC)
shifted to 98.5 and it allows WBZ-AM to do talk (Dan Rea)....though I know what you mean.
It would put the Sox on in many states etc
aaron: yup, no prob; I have managed to pick up WTIC when traveling in Ohio, etc.; not always clear. I know one time I was in Baltimore area and tuned to 1080 to hear primary election
results (Joe Lieberman, etc.) and it came in faintly (no splashover from WBAL but this was
maybe before I-BlOCk? If they have IBOC)
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