Short spaced stations

[schmave]

Speaking of Detroit/Windsor, Lima's WBKS-FM (93.9) is only 103 air miles from 100,000-watt CKLW (93.9). WBKS' tower is actually north of Lima in Ottawa County.
Here in central Ohio, you have W277BV (103.3) and WZVL (103.7) in Zanesville only about 37 miles east of Columbus' WNND (103.5). They completely take out 103.5 with a few miles of Zanesville and only 35 miles from the tower. WZVL allegedly is directional, but I have heard it on I-70 within sight of WNND's tower.

 

[Steve Green NEPA]

There was a thread on one Radio-Info board about the idea of WRAW 1340 Reading, WHAT 1340 Philadelphia and WMID 1340 Atlantic City co-existing.
Indeed, it's 103 miles from A/C to Reading. But Philadelphia is in between those cities!
All three were licensed back in the days when 'Class IV' stations were just 250 watts. Now, of course, that's been 1000 watts for some time. Oddly, there is no real overlap despite the power increases.

Similar situation on 1490 between WDLC Port Jervis NY and WKNY Kingston NY (my alma mater :- )
They're 52 miles apart, and also were licensed for 250 watts way back then. But even at 1000 watts there's no overlap today.

Weirdest I'd seen for a while was the old WALE 1400 and WBSM 1420, in SE Massachusetts. WALE was one of those holdover 250-watters, now 1000 watts. But WBSM was 5000 watts. It cannot be anything but a :20 minute commute between those two cities.

The 'How Far Is It' site says that Dover NJ and Pompton Lakes are 16 miles apart. Yet, for years, WRAN 1510 Dover and WKER 1500 Pompton Lakes co-existed. Both were directional, but, wow -- 16 miles? That defines shoehorning.

As ftballfan said, the northeast is packed like sardines on the dials.
Long ago, neither WJLK 1310 Asbury Park NJ nor WCAM Camden NJ had holes in their shoes despite both being 1000 watts omni and 61 miles apart.
This largesse must have impressed some people in Parsippany NJ to the extent (same state) that THEY put a third station on 1310.
WPRJ was the original call. They signed on in the 70s.

The AM dial indeed is packed, Ftballfan. And with all the translators and move-ins, the FM dial is catching up to AM.

 

[BobOnTheJob]

And with all the translators and move-ins, the FM dial is catching up to AM.

Let's not forget the IBOC hiss which clobbers 2 channels per transmitter. And the FCC seems heck bent on cramming 10 pounds of flour in a 5 pound sack "in the public interest". We know where they stand on the quality vs quantity argument.

 

[davideduardo]

Weirdest I'd seen for a while was the old WALE 1400 and WBSM 1420, in SE Massachusetts. WALE was one of those holdover 250-watters, now 1000 watts. But WBSM was 5000 watts. It cannot be anything but a :20 minute commute between those two cities.

That's not so strange at all.

In most of the Western Hemisphere, separations like that in the same market occurred (or did occur before the AM herd began thinning in most other places).

The best example is in Mexico City.

690 100 kw
710 10 kw
730 100 kw.

... all licensed to the same city.

 

[radioman148]

Weirdest I'd seen for a while was the old WALE 1400 and WBSM 1420, in SE Massachusetts. WALE was one of those holdover 250-watters, now 1000 watts. But WBSM was 5000 watts. It cannot be anything but a :20 minute commute between those two cities.

That's not so strange at all.

In most of the Western Hemisphere, separations like that in the same market occurred (or did occur before the AM herd began thinning in most other places).

The best example is in Mexico City.

690 100 kw
710 10 kw
730 100 kw.

... all licensed to the same city.

When I was first in Mexico City in the 60s I witnessed those short spaced AMs. I've never seen that anywhere else although I've heard it was fairly common in South America.

 

[charlestondxman]

You have 107.9 in Hilton Head and 107.9 south of Myrtle Beach, both 50kw or over signals. There is some overlap.

 

[davideduardo]

When I was first in Mexico City in the 60s I witnessed those short spaced AMs. I've never seen that anywhere else although I've heard it was fairly common in South America.

Those stations are not "short spaced" as the rules allowed their assignment. Back in the 60's, XEN-690 was 20 kw, XEMP-710 was 1 kw and XEX at its current 100 kw level. Since then, both 60' and 710 have been allowed to raise power.

I owned HCRM 570 and HCSP 590, both licensed to Quito, Ecuador. There were many instances of 20 kc separation when I built both of those... the dial had these examples: 530-550-590-610, 720-740-760, 785-805-835, 1070-1090-1111, 1140-1160-1180, 1310-1330, 1410-1430 and 1520-1540.

Many, many more examples existed in cities with lots of AMs... Guatemala City was one city with many, as was Tegucigalpa and also Panama City as well as Peru and Bolivia.

 

[radioman148]

When I was first in Mexico City in the 60s I witnessed those short spaced AMs. I've never seen that anywhere else although I've heard it was fairly common in South America.

Those stations are not "short spaced" as the rules allowed their assignment. Back in the 60's, XEN-690 was 20 kw, XEMP-710 was 1 kw and XEX at its current 100 kw level. Since then, both 60' and 710 have been allowed to raise power.

I owned HCRM 570 and HCSP 590, both licensed to Quito, Ecuador. There were many instances of 20 kc separation when I built both of those... the dial had these examples: 530-550-590-610, 720-740-760, 785-805-835, 1070-1090-1111, 1140-1160-1180, 1310-1330, 1410-1430 and 1520-1540.

Many, many more examples existed in cities with lots of AMs... Guatemala City was one city with many, as was Tegucigalpa and also Panama City as well as Peru and Bolivia.

Until I was in Mexico City I had never witnessed stations that close together on the low end of the AM dial. I had seen examples of 20kc on the high end, but never the low end until then.

 

[ftballfan]

1070AM in the South is quite crowded. There are 50kW (day) AMs in Memphis, Birmingham, Chattanooga, and Greenville (SC)

 

[Steve Green NEPA]

@ Ftballfan (whose fault this all was )
That 105.7 York station destroys semi-local WMGH Tamaqua on 105.5 in these parts. For we folks in the hills, WQXA has a huge signal. Perhaps the Balt and York stations are directional?

And correct about 101.1 in NYC and Philly. Driving north on U.S. 206 (a pretty alternative to U.S. 1 or the NJ Turnpike) I'd get Philadelphia going uphill, and WCBS-FM going downhill.

Word was that WHTZ 100.3 in NYC took some action against WKSZ 100.3 Philadelphia for using the slogan 'Z-100'.
Huh?
Apparently, WHTZ either won the case or WKSZ decided not to contest it. The skirmish happened back in the diary days of the ratings. WHTZ's legal ID is for New Jersey, and maybe they were provincial about that same intermediate stretch of north-central New Jersey where the 101.1's play tag.
(Even though, of course, WHTZ buries their association with their beloved Newark. They may as well whisper it at TOH ID time. If they were any more New York they'd have the New Year's Eve ball dropping from their tower).

More on NJ, FtballFan :
For decades, Camden and Trenton have had first-adjacents -- the omni WCAM 1310 and the directional WIMG 1300. They're 27 miles apart. Minor overlap, though.

If you want overlap, and a bit of irony :
I was driving from Northeast Philly to work one time -- at WKSZ, lol, of all places ! On the drive down I-95 on the car radio I took omni WBCB 1490 Levittown all the way into Philly until it got incinerated by the directional beam of WDAS 1480.
But once past the huge lobe of WDAS .... maybe about two miles worth of splash .... in came WBCB again, on the other side of the WDAS megaphone!

 

[Schroedingers Cat]

Theoretically, at least as far as contour overlap goes, in the US, two stations could have the same COL and be 30 kHz apart. They would have to both cover the COL with a 5 mV/m contour, but the 25 mV/m contours cannot overlap. In practice, the preclusive effect of the COL signal requirements and the contour overlap rule make it difficult if not impossible to have two stations less than 40 kHz apart in the same city. Rules further back had central business district and factory area coverage rules that would have precluded it completely. With 250 watts for example, the 25 mV/m contour may only go out about 3 miles, so they would have to be at least 6 miles apart. In most cities, that might be difficult, and if the they were both 1000 watts, even more difficult to locate in the sme COL. With a 50 kW former Class I-A station, the 25 mV/m may go out 25 miles or more, precluding even a 250 watt station less than about 28 miles away.

 

[Schroedingers Cat]

When I was a kid, we were driving back from Northern Michigan and listening to the Detroit Tigers on WKMF 1470 Flint up around Houghton Lake. The station has a pretty good signal for being that far up the dial, being 5000 watts and directional toward the NNW, but when we drove through Midland, the station ID came on without having heard any network echo or made any dial change and it was another Tiger affiliate WMDN 1490 Midland. Within a few miles, WKMF 1470 returned.

 

[bobdavcav]

A few from my area,
96.1 KXXO and CHKG I'm not sure if they're technically shortspaced. Same with the others below.
97.7 KOMO-FM and CBUF
99.3 KDDS and CFOX. All about 220 miles apart, class C signals.
Talk about a crowded frequency, I don't think I've ever seen anything as bad as 94.5 in my area. CFBT C, K233BU, KRXY A, KLYK A, and KMGE can't remember if they're listed as a C or C0. In contrast, 96.1 only has 3 signals over that same distance, 2 C signals and a C0.
Another suspicious spacing is KHHK and KIT-FM in the Yakima area. KHHK is a C3, and Kit-FM is an A on a second-adjacent. They are no more than 25 miles apart.

 

[trusty]

Is there any other market besides Chicago (http://www.radio-locator.com/cgi-bin/locate?select=city&city=chicago&state=il&x=13&y=5) that has so many stations crammed into the noncommercial end of the FM dial? Granted, most all are translator power but not translator calls.

Is there an overlap problem there?

 

[HadYourPhil]

How about 1130, with Minneapolis, Milwaukee, Detroit and New York? At one time, all of them were 50kw and the first three were quite directional.

 

[ftballfan]

A few from my area,
96.1 KXXO and CHKG I'm not sure if they're technically shortspaced. Same with the others below.
97.7 KOMO-FM and CBUF
99.3 KDDS and CFOX. All about 220 miles apart, class C signals.
Talk about a crowded frequency, I don't think I've ever seen anything as bad as 94.5 in my area. CFBT C, K233BU, KRXY A, KLYK A, and KMGE can't remember if they're listed as a C or C0. In contrast, 96.1 only has 3 signals over that same distance, 2 C signals and a C0.
Another suspicious spacing is KHHK and KIT-FM in the Yakima area. KHHK is a C3, and Kit-FM is an A on a second-adjacent. They are no more than 25 miles apart.

The minimum spacing between two full Class C stations on a co-channel is about 180 miles, and the minimum spacing between a C3 and an A second adjacent is 26 miles.

 

[1L6E6VHF]

How about 1130, with Minneapolis, Milwaukee, Detroit and New York? At one time, all of them were 50kw and the first three were quite directional.

Hard to call stations spaced 250-500 miles apart "short spaced" IMHO. All of these stations (including WINS) are extremely directional at night, and not all are 50kW at night (WDFN, in particular, has never been more than 10kW night, and its nighttime directional pattern provides a poor signal to the eastside city and suburbs, and outright misses some of the western burbs).

 

[1L6E6VHF]

Theoretically, at least as far as contour overlap goes, in the US, two stations could have the same COL and be 30 kHz apart. They would have to both cover the COL with a 5 mV/m contour, but the 25 mV/m contours cannot overlap. In practice, the preclusive effect of the COL signal requirements and the contour overlap rule make it difficult if not impossible to have two stations less than 40 kHz apart in the same city. Rules further back had central business district and factory area coverage rules that would have precluded it completely. With 250 watts for example, the 25 mV/m contour may only go out about 3 miles, so they would have to be at least 6 miles apart. In most cities, that might be difficult, and if the they were both 1000 watts, even more difficult to locate in the sme COL. With a 50 kW former Class I-A station, the 25 mV/m may go out 25 miles or more, precluding even a 250 watt station less than about 28 miles away.

I was surprised to learn about the third-adjacent, 25 mV/m restriction when I did. If anything, it would seem that stations on third adjacents would be better off nearly co-located - so each station would be almost as strong at the other it their whole coverage areas. If I were trying reach part of a market with my 1 mV/m signal, then I would be worried if a third adjacent had its stick right in that area. I've come to believe that the third-adjacent rule was less an anti-interference rule with a "birth control" rule.

Put another way, if it weren't there, would-be radio tycoons would have built a radio station in Detroit at every third channel on the dial, which would have meant NO local radio for Toledo, Flint, Port Huron or Ann Arbor, as every channel not used in Detroit would be first-adjacent to a Detroit station, it would have been impossible to protect the Detroit stations' .5 mV contours from a .25 mV contour.

The second-adjacent (5mV, 5mV) standard was a bad idea, too, but that is a far more complicated discussion.

 

[cyberdad]

I agree that NY-DET-CHI-MPLS aren't exactly what would normally considered short-spaced. And as for NY, I assume you mean WBBR instead of WINS, since we're talking about 1130.

Anyway, with regard to the Midwest 1130s. David Eduardo has commented previously on what all went into this engineering accomplishment. Particularly adding WISN to the channel in 1965 (in a move from 1150). The final result worked pretty well in terms of the stations co-existing fairly well without interfering with each other. KWKH is the "main culprit"....at least for WISN and KTCN. Although the drawback is serious nulls....especially at night. I'm a little over 30 miles from the WISN 10kw nighttime sticks in an area with very good ground conductivity, and I almost never hear even a whiff of them. (Day signal is quite good, however).

 

[1L6E6VHF]

I agree that NY-DET-CHI-MPLS aren't exactly what would normally considered short-spaced. And as for NY, I assume you mean WBBR instead of WINS, since we're talking about 1130.
,snip.

Thank you - too bad I can't edit it out. I hate getting old!