Short spaced stations

[cyberdad]

]

Thank you - too bad I can't edit it out. I hate getting old!

"Senior Moments"....don't you just love 'em. I knew what you meant and I think so did everyone else. If David is lurking here, maybe he could give us a thumbnail recap of how WISN got sandwiched in between Detroit and Minneapolis. It certainly worked, while I can't get WISN at all at night 30 miles from their sticks...the put a fine signal over the Milwaukee metro and points north.

 

[radioman148]

]

Thank you - too bad I can't edit it out. I hate getting old!

"Senior Moments"....don't you just love 'em. I knew what you meant and I think so did everyone else. If David is lurking here, maybe he could give us a thumbnail recap of how WISN got sandwiched in between Detroit and Minneapolis. It certainly worked, while I can't get WISN at all at night 30 miles from their sticks...the put a fine signal over the Milwaukee metro and points north.

I can vouch for the fact that WISN's signal into the near north Chicago suburbs is non existent at night, but very good during the day. The station I most often hear at night on 1130 is WBBR. As Cyberdad pointed out WISN's signal north of Milwaukee is very good at night as I've heard it up in central & northern Wisconsin.

 

[Schroedingers Cat]

The thing that amazes me about the WDFN-WISN situation is that WDFN radiates more than the Class B minimum for 50 kW toward Milwaukee, and that there was no Critical Hours reduction requirement toward WBBR (WNEW).

One rumor I heard was that the owners of WDFN (WCAR) offered to switch frequencies with WFDF 910 back around the time WCAR went from 1 kW ND-D in Pontiac to 50/10 DA-2 in Gibraltar/Detroit. WCAR would have been 5 kW DA-2 on 910, presumably from some location closer to Detroit than Gibraltar. WFDF could have been 50 kW NONDIRECTIONAL days on 1130, and up to 10 kW night depending on how many towers they wanted to put up. Even with 1 kW night, WFDF would have probably had to move again post NARBA if it wanted a good signal toward Flint on 1130. As it had an NIF on the order of 4 mV/m on 910 mainly from WGBI, and there was no KGLC, it would have been an improvement in the daytime only, and long ago it could have been 5 kW night more easily than by moving to 1130. WFDF has more power night now than it could have ever had on 1130. It's just too bad Riverview wouldn't approve the towers at the WJR site. I'm sure 1L6E6VHF has some opinions on that. I think it was pre WFRO 900.

 

[rfry]

It's just too bad Riverview wouldn't approve the towers at the WJR site.

WJR doesn't have a huge amount of real estate there. For that and other reasons, it would be surprising if WJR would permit another AM operation on their plot of land -- even if the municipality of Riverview had no problem with it.

 

[Schroedingers Cat]

WFDF was coowned with WJR at the time by ABC/Disney. They apparently tried to get zoning for eight towers there, and were turned down by Riverview. Not sure if adjacent parcels were necessary. There was no application filed there because of the zoning issue. From that location, the east side of Detroit and Macomb County would have received a much better signal. It is unclear whether they would have had to wait for a Major Change window or whether a Minor Change daytime application could have put a 5 mV/m back over Flint from that location with the tower height that could have been approved in the meantime. Another advantage would have been that measured contours could have been used where advantageous, and a much better idea of actual coverage would have been possible. I also suspect that actual conductivity is better the closer you get to the Detroit River and Lake Erie. The soil changes quickly to a less loamy clay soil the further west you go.

 

[dx1ng]

The thing that amazes me about the WDFN-WISN situation is that WDFN radiates more than the Class B minimum for 50 kW toward Milwaukee, and that there was no Critical Hours reduction requirement toward WBBR (WNEW).

I am a regular listener here in Poughkeepsie,NY to New York's WBBR-1130. WBBR's signal is fine in the car during the day, and quite good at night, but at critical hours, gets really clobbered by WDFN. During those months of the year when I am driving to/from work either in the first hour or so after WDFN goes to its day pattern, or the last hour before going to the night pattern in the afternoon, more often than not, WDFN renders WBBR unlistenable.

 

[Schroedingers Cat]

The thing that amazes me about the WDFN-WISN situation is that WDFN radiates more than the Class B minimum for 50 kW toward Milwaukee, and that there was no Critical Hours reduction requirement toward WBBR (WNEW).

I am a regular listener here in Poughkeepsie,NY to New York's WBBR-1130. WBBR's signal is fine in the car during the day, and quite good at night, but at critical hours, gets really clobbered by WDFN. During those months of the year when I am driving to/from work either in the first hour or so after WDFN goes to its day pattern, or the last hour before going to the night pattern in the afternoon, more often than not, WDFN renders WBBR unlistenable.

Now I understand. Critical hours regulations didn't take effect until 1959. It only applies to stations authorized after that. Not sure what would happen if they had to relocate. There was a moratorium on new stations on Class I-A frequencies. No sure what years that was in effect. It seems like it ended in the 1980s. But before that, there were only a handful of Class II stations on Class I-A frequencies, so it was less of an issue on those channels. Class II stations with more than 5000 watts on Class I-A frequencies were rare before then. WAIT 820, WKAR 870, and WRFD 880 come to mind with 5000 watts. Increases to 10000 watts came after about 1960 (WKAR 870 and WKNX 1210 come to mind. They also went directional at that point).

 

[1L6E6VHF]

It's just too bad Riverview wouldn't approve the towers at the WJR site.

WJR doesn't have a huge amount of real estate there. For that and other reasons, it would be surprising if WJR would permit another AM operation on their plot of land -- even if the municipality of Riverview had no problem with it.

That's what I was just thinking - WJR's plot of land can't be wide enough (east-west) to fit the exact same array Disney actually built at Carleton. I have no idea how deep (north-south) their property is, so perhaps an array two wide and four deep would have been a possibility.

What is interesting is what some people I knew in Carleton had told me then. The proposed towers may have been referred to as "the new WJR towers", and that, supposedly, the work crews at the site were even being told they were building the site for WJR. One thought that came up was that ABC had been looking to diplex WJR with WFDF on the new Carleton array, freeing up the Riverview site for non-radio development. Further still, that the Carleton array could be used by WJR as a directional array to protect WSB and WABC, especially if WJR had to change frequency to 750 kHz, if the AM bandplan were to change to 30 kHz channel spacing, so that AM IBOC could actually work!

I never knew that they had ever planned to use the Riverview site.

I have relatives who live about a mile from the WFDF transmitter, right in the major lobe (no place for a DXer, their TV picture is marred by lines from the leakage through the inputs). The soil there is just awful. Not just one kind of soil, but a mottled mess of some clay, some podzol, some alluvium, and a lot of beach sand!

It's interesting to hear that WFDF is clobbering WBBR on CH. Their daytime DA pattern in the NYC radial is well below that of their best (NNE) radial.

 

[Schroedingers Cat]

I think it's WDFN clobbering WBBR.

That sounds like they filled a swampy area with a lot of fill dirt from elsewhere. I saw the area you were talking about when I went down there when it was being built. That's probably why there is a 2:1 winter summer field strength.

Yes, there was a rumor that WJR wanted to go directional as the reason for all the towers. There were a lot of crazier ideas floating around then, like WBZ being broken down like WOWO as a Class A to upgrade WXYT on 1030 fulltime, and swapping 1270 to WUFL. I guess that's what happens when you let one company own too many stations. They start doing things like that.