Should WEEI drop AM?

[ssetta]

With all this talk and promotion about WEEI's new FM simulcast on 93.7, once the switch finally takes place, do you really think anyone will still be listening on AM 850? I somehow don't think so. Many modern radios that you buy do not have AM tuners in them, and usually if they do, they suck and can barely pick up any stations. I remember years and years ago, WEEI used to be on 590 AM, and WHDH used to be on 850. If I can recall, WEEI was simulcasting on both 590 and 850, but eventually gave up the 590 signal, though I don't know if that was originally planned. But who would listen to AM if they can have FM?

 

[raccoonradio]

Interesting question; I think the simulcast of 590 and 850 lasted about a week or so just so people could get used to new frequency ("don't forget we're now on 850 with a stronger signal"). Agreed about AM
tuners, etc., and the way people regard AM these days.

If 93.7 and the various other WEEI outlets can cover areas well, then there may be no need. I noticed
on my car stereo yesterday _by day_ in Reading, N. Reading area, nice strong signal on 850. By DAY.
Then of course, power line interference and all.

The suggestion has been made to make 850 ESPN 24/7; but in effect WEEI would be competing against itself. Would the ratings of Dennis and Callahan be dragged down a bit by people listening to Mike
and Mike on 850? Maybe not that much but they want to boast of high ratings to advertisers. (And btw
if people "write down" what they listen to in a ratings diary if they simply write WEEI does the AM or
FM get credit? Or do they have to write down freq too?) I don't know, can the PPMs machines that
record that info automatically?

Anyway: WEEI AM would serve one purpose: Spillover sports play by play etc.
Scenario: Next Mon, when the new FM premieres, Westwood One has 2 NFL games. WEEI can't
have the Pats-Dolphins due to Pats/WBZ-FM agreement, but there's a second game, Denv.-Oak.
WRKO will probably wind up carrying that, as both WEEIs will probably talk Pats. But suppose
it's another Mon night and they want Planet Mikey on WEEI-FM; they could run MNF on WEEI AM.
Or: Celts on the AM, Sox on the FM. Or this scenario--playoffs, Sox are off (or eliminated):
WEEI FM: Planet Mikey
WEEI AM: Playoffs, New York v Detroit or Milwaukee v Atlanta

What are the other options for WEEI AM without a simulcast?
"Mike 850 we play everything". Prob not, as it would be AM--people wouldn't want that. I will say
there are Mike fans upset about the WEEI move. But would they put a format like Mike on AM?

True Oldies
Prog Talk (make some on this board happy!)
Simulcast of WRKO (why? They cover about the same areas)
Maybe sell off to someone who'll put ethnic or religious on there or something

 

[Gadon]

I suspect the simultcast will stay intact on 850, since the 93.7 signal's strength is more towards the north of Boston and into southern NH, while 850 does fill in many gaps between 93.7 and the 103.7 Westerly / Providence signal. The 850 could eventually clear a lot of the ESPN Radio schedule, since ESPN has not been on a full power strong signal in Boston. Mike-FM was a smaller revenue cash register for Entercom than WEEI, though it did contribute well, and the bottom line for all of this is 'dah money'..

 

[mgpt6]

They will keep 850AM for conflicts that used to go to WRKO. BC Sports home will be 850AM just as PC Basketball is home on 103.7 FM in RI.Can see Mikey on 93.7 while BC BBall is on 850. RKO Talk fans will be happy with almost no more sports pre-empting talk shows.
What will be on WAAF/WKAF HD-2 on Monday, WRKO or Mike FM?

 

[mgpt6]

In the car at night, 93.7 is so much clearer than 850 in brockton. 93.7 does get into the range where 103.7 is clear in Southern Mass.

 

[raccoonradio]

One poss would be, for HD2s:
93.7: Funkytown or Mike
97.7: Mike or Funkytown
107.3: WRKO (since RKO is weak to the west at night)
Tuning in on my HD portable last night here in Beverly there was a "signal" on the WMKK 93.7 HD-3
but no sound.

Who knows they may not bother to keep an HD2 for Mike but it did have a lot of fans. They put
Funkytown on as a bit of keeping Star 93.7 going

There may still be the occasional sports bump to RKO; as I said, on Mon night I would think both
AM and FM signals of EEI would be talking Pats with RKO carrying the second MNF game. But, yes.

 

[Eli Polonsky]

Tuning in on my HD portable last night here in Beverly there was a "signal" on the WMKK 93.7 HD-3
but no sound.

I'm not getting that now, just their HD1 and HD2, but since they used to have WEEI on the HD3, they could have fired it up again for brief testing with a blank carrier, with plans to put other programming on it.

Or, I have noticed that sometimes my Insignia portable creates its own "phantom" blank HD3 signals on stations that definitely do not, and have never, run any HD3.

 

[MR. JAROME_CALVIN]

What they should do on both

On 850AM, Keep Dennis and Callahan, Celtics Game and Red Sox Games, Celtics Post Game and Red Sox Post Game shows, put all these on both 850am and 93.7 Keep all their local shows and College Sports...


on 850am At all other times (Overnights) put "ESPN Radio"

on 93.7 At all other times (Overnights) Put "Yahoo Sports Radio" Because they sound more energized, they sound more alive and more attention grabbing than "ESPN Radio"


To make things easier, put "Yahoo Sports Radio" on all their stations and disregard "ESPN Radio" all together. Other than the games on "ESPN Radio" I know they're famous and all, other than the games, most of their shows need to be more interactive by phone. Other than that, most of ESPN Radio shows sound way to (dry)

I don't mean to say anything bad, take a few minutes of your time, listen to all those Networks, and later, come back here and tell us which one you like better and why?

For a (Famous) station like W E E I who's been around for quite a long time, they would sound way more alive and way more better with something like "Fox Sports Radio" or "Yahoo Sports Radio" That's what I would do if I were them. Put "Yahoo Sports Radio" on both (overnights)

 

[raccoonradio]

Eli: yes prob a phantom HD-3 signal

Laurojrm: ESPN radio will be on overnights on both AM and FM no matter what. As for Yahoo Sports Radio overnight,
who knows, maybe they'd try that or poss. just stick with ESPN

ESPN's shows may sound dry but I like the play by play incl baseball playoffs. You won't get that via YSR.

 

[MR. JAROME_CALVIN]

yeah yeah yeah, me too, I also like the Play-By-Play that ESPN does, that's about the only good thing I like about them. I do like "Baseball Night" and Football Night. Other than that, most of their shows sounds too dry

 

[thirdendorsed]

With all this talk and promotion about WEEI's new FM simulcast on 93.7, once the switch finally takes place, do you really think anyone will still be listening on AM 850? I somehow don't think so. Many modern radios that you buy do not have AM tuners in them, and usually if they do, they suck and can barely pick up any stations. I remember years and years ago, WEEI used to be on 590 AM, and WHDH used to be on 850. If I can recall, WEEI was simulcasting on both 590 and 850, but eventually gave up the 590 signal, though I don't know if that was originally planned. But who would listen to AM if they can have FM?

Radio boards are wonderful things. They let people who have absolutely no idea what they are talking about babble on.

First, the shift of WEEI from its heritage position at 590 to 850 was not a case of simulcasting and eventually giving up. The American Radio crowd "bought' the intellectual property of WEEI, told employees it would not impact them, then, consistent with its grand tradition of constantly lying, moved the format to 850 and gassed many long-term employees of both WHDH and WRKO. There was a brief simulcast period during the transition before WEEI's owners went all biz, a plan which was announced at the time of the WEEI frequency swap. The simulcast was not long term, so nobody "gave up." The sports radio format migrated to a stronger signal, since the WHDH "information station" concept was a disaster. American needed programing and, being woefully inadequate at producing it on AM, had to go out and buy it for its failing 850 signal while they figure out how to monetize the towers.

Second, the "clarity" of the FM signal is a double-edged sword. WEEI has a lot of mouth-breathers and fat people whose wheezing will become amazingly apparent on FM. The poor mic technique one can get away with on AM is a disaster on FM. I predict near-constant tweaking of the FM processing to reach a balance between room noise and slobbering. People may actually find the AM signal less harsh on their ears.

Third, ESPN as a standalone sports station in Boston makes less sense for the network than the current position of riding second call on a local sports outlet. They'll make more money with their long-form events being aired on a successful sports station than they will pulling a point-five-share as the third player in the format. it will also make more money for Entercom. The ESPN radio profit center is not all-day listening in major markets. It is filling the gaps between drive-times in smaller markets that cannot sustain the talent and production costs of full time sports radio and getting long-form events on attractive signals in major markets at night when there is no local sports PBP.

Fourth, the decline and fall of AM radio in Boston is a function of a bunch of lousy operators taking over prime signals.

590, 680 and 850 should be viable frequencies, two are 50KW with good dial position, albeit less than stellar patterns, and the 590 frequency is strong in much of the metro. After selling its sportsradio format, WEEI rushed headlong into specialty broadcasting, and never forget that Salem is in the specialty broadcasting business. 680 never really recovered from RKO General's problems as it was grabbed after the FCC revocation decision by a group of people who were barely-functioning idiots in the radio business. WBUR's growth is not due to signal, it is due to the buffoons at American radio blowing up a thoughtful talk station in favor of a desire for its conception of "hot talk" with such things as the Vicki Jones/Howie Carr disaster, the Leykis idiocy and a variety of morning shows that gutted the news element to crawl all over the perceived humor of non-professionals (ozone/moes) who knew nothing about holding an audience. When Sconnix cashed out, 850 became first an adjunct to a television operation, the erstwhile WNEV, which was also run by amateurs and was a spectacular failure until its sale to Ansin, who went to the other extreme and destroyed journalism in television news in Boston. The former "Voice of the City" became a toy of the incompetent "let's try radio" crowd at American Radio who took over right around the time the station was drifting through four AM radio GMs in three years.

 

[reelyreal]

Second, the "clarity" of the FM signal is a double-edged sword. WEEI has a lot of mouth-breathers and fat people whose wheezing will become amazingly apparent on FM. The poor mic technique one can get away with on AM is a disaster on FM. I predict near-constant tweaking of the FM processing to reach a balance between room noise and slobbering. People may actually find the AM signal less harsh on their ears.

Honestly, that's such a minor issue. It sounds more like a nit-pick. However, if you think it's a legit issue, I'd point to the 7 year FM simulcast in Providence which not only sounds wonderful, it pulls in ratings and cash.

 

[ChrisNH]

Aside from a small handful of clear-channel stations, AM radio is like that Liberal wet-dream, high-speed rail: A swell idea for urban folks; not so good for everyone else.

 

[bigtom101]

Aside from a small handful of clear-channel stations, AM radio is like that Liberal wet-dream, high-speed rail: A swell idea for urban folks; not so good for everyone else.

Given the noise floor in most urban areas, I'd say the 50kw AM's are better for rural areas than the city.

 

[Laurence Glavin]

I forget whether I posted it here or at the Boston Radio Interest Group, but I suggested that AM facilitiues with rare exceptions remained unchanged for decades, while the FMs went to the Pru or TV towers, and maybe even different types of dual-polarized antenna over the years. AM 590 has been at Wellington Circle since before WWII; AM 680 has been in Burlington since the WLAW days; WBZ-AM seems to have built the towers for 990, but they're undoubtedly fine for 1030; AM 1150 was a disaster when it started in Lexington and is so today. In Boston, one station totally revamped its array and we have WWZN-AM 1510 that's still horrendous in the market at night, but better than it would have been if it stayed in North Quincy next to AM 1260. And the aforementioned AM 850 is also a near septagenarian at its Needham site. Of course the decline in AM listening undercut the financials of the medium, and so broadcasters stuck with the towers and arrays they built or inherited. Would WEEI-AM 850's signal improve if they carefully found an undeveloped site and installed a totally new ground system and built entirely new towers at the optimum height? Dan says that they're not all the same height as is. As the only lower-case-c clear channel in boston, WBZ had the right to build a single-stick tower west of the City that may not have made it to Milwaukee at night as well but might have covered more land and reached more people clearly when the population moved west (and there'd have neen no AM 1060).

 

[carmen]

Radio boards are wonderful things. They let people who have absolutely no idea what they are talking about babble on.

WEEI should drop AM no question, i'd like to hear KOA after dark

 

[reelyreal]

Of course the decline in AM listening undercut the financials of the medium, and so broadcasters stuck with the towers and arrays they built or inherited. Would WEEI-AM 850's signal improve if they carefully found an undeveloped site and installed a totally new ground system and built entirely new towers at the optimum height?

There's one of the problems... the sheer cost! AM's will always be incredibly expensive to build due to the scale of the system. FM's will always be cheaper (by comparison) to build. Could you imagine trying to buy several acres in suburban Boston, then trying to get the local gov to let you build freakin' towers? Look at the Mount Wayte Ave. facility in Framingham... almost never happened! It's not cost effective, and the improvement in signal wouldn't be that earth-shattering.

 

[Rusty Muck]

Third, ESPN as a standalone sports station in Boston makes less sense for the network than the current position of riding second call on a local sports outlet. They'll make more money with their long-form events being aired on a successful sports station than they will pulling a point-five-share as the third player in the format. it will also make more money for Entercom. The ESPN radio profit center is not all-day listening in major markets. It is filling the gaps between drive-times in smaller markets that cannot sustain the talent and production costs of full time sports radio and getting long-form events on attractive signals in major markets at night when there is no local sports PBP.

In San Francisco, Cumulus has been very successful operating a second-tier "brother" to their all-sports KNBR/680. Offically KTCT/1050 (and 50kW days to boot), it's billed as "KNBR 1050" alongside "KNBR 680." KTCT clears all of "Mike and Mike," Cowherd, serves as Rome's SF outlet, and simulcasts KNBR's afternoon drive show outright.

Plus they air all spillover PBP and all of the ESPN PBP offerings (some are simulcast with KNBR). Weekends are for the most part directly simulcast, as both run ESPN Radio outside of any PBP.

Other arrangements have been set up in Washington, DC (WTEM/980 "ESPN 980" now has WSPZ/570 "SportsTalk 570"... carries all ESPN programming and YSR's morning show, hosted by WTEM staffer Steve Czaban) Baltimore (WJZ/105.7 "105.7 The Fan" has WJZ/1300 "ESPN 1300," a 24/7 relay of ESPN Radio) and Cleveland (WKNR/850 "ESPN 850" has WWGK/1540 "ESPN 1540 KNR2," which carries all spillover ESPN Radio programming, nevermind WWGK is inaudible in much of the Cleveland metropolitan area).


Remember that ESPN came to WEEI by default after WAMG went belly-up, and neither WWZN nor the Sports Hub were interested. ESPN prefers a full-market clearance for their programming, especially "Mike and Mike" and Cowherd. Why else have they maintained an "ESPNBoston.com" website AND webstream totally independent of WEEI?

Theoretically, if 850 went to a 24/7 ESPN relay, running "Mike and Mike" on 850 will do no damage to Dennis and Callahan, and poses zero threat to Toucher and Rich. Ditto with any of ESPN Radio's offerings - and that's usually the case with most of their shows on a nationwide basis. "Mike & Mike" undercut themselves by being on TV, internet streaming, and virtually everywhere else that their show becomes almost irrelevant.

It's all about protecting the WEEI brand and making ESPN Radio happy, too - plus giving 850 something else to run, as being a 24/7 simulcast of 93.7 will make no sense.

 

[reelyreal]

As the only lower-case-c clear channel in boston, WBZ had the right to build a single-stick tower west of the City that may not have made it to Milwaukee at night as well but might have covered more land and reached more people clearly when the population moved west (and there'd have neen no AM 1060).

WBZ is the only high power AM in the Boston area without a null to the south or west. By using the Hull site to the east of Boston, they have an incredible salt-water path to Boston (nothing but water between it and the city.) In using the simple cardioid pattern, they put a stronger field strength over the city and west into the suburbs. The only area of MA that suffers is the Cape. The Hull site is the most ideal site for WBZ, that's why it is hands down the BEST AM signal in Boston.

Also, Westinghouse worked pretty damn hard to keep 1060 off the air. For more than 15 years they prevented the 25kw night signal from being licensed, as they owned co-channel KYW as well. Even today, the 25kw never materialized as a result of the constant challenges, and today they only have the CP for 2500 watts.

 

[DanStrassberg]

Would WEEI-AM 850's signal improve if they carefully found an undeveloped site and installed a totally new ground system and built entirely new towers at the optimum height? Dan says that they're not all the same height as is. As the only lower-case-c clear channel in boston, WBZ had the right to build a single-stick tower west of the City that may not have made it to Milwaukee at night as well but might have covered more land and reached more people clearly when the population moved west (and there'd have neen no AM 1060).

First off, in the period between 1930 or so and 1937 or so, WBZ's transmitter was in Millis. AFAIK, Westinghouse never built tall towers there. WBZ had a long-wire antenna, which was customary in the day--two self-supporting towers of moderate height with a horizontal wire (the antenna) stretched between them. Had the company's engineers not had a better idea (move to Hull and build a directional setup with half-wave towers there), WBZ could have replaced the long-wire with a single vertical radiator. The fact was, though, that the ground conductivity near Millis is not spectacular and Millis is kind of far from downtown Boston, so WBZ would not have the legendary signal it has today had it simply replaced its longwire with a single tall vertical antenna at its then-existing site.

As for WEEI, Yes the towers are of unequal heights--going from west to east, the heights are 640', 600', and 560'. This was not some stupid design mistake or the result of a bizarre zoning regulation. It was an attempt to build a non-fade antenna system. Didn't work out. It is generally agreed that the fading performance is no better than it would have been if all three towers had been 600' (~187 degrees at 850). The efficiency is apparently a little better than that, however. Back in 1947, when the array was first commissioned, it was determined that the effective height of all three towers was 207 degrees. Within the past year or so, WEEI held a CP to change the registration so that FCC considered each tower to be its actual height. As far as I can tell, the work was successfully completed but no change was made in the registration. Perhaps this had something to do with the FCC's widely despised "ratchet rule," which requires AMs that make significant changes to their facilities to reduce (ratchet down) interference to co- and first-adjaceent-channel stations. I believe that the ratchet rule was what torpedoed a move of WEEI to the WRKO site that ARS contemplated a decade or more ago. Such a move, if it could be implemented, would signficantly improve WEEI's coverage in a lot of areas--MetroWest at night NOT included. That would be an area where the night signal would get a bit worse.

In any event, other than the WRKO site, there is no site that Entercom could obtain at any reasonable price and probably no workable site that Entercom could obtain at ANY price. (Remember the decade-long fight over adding SHORT towers at 750 Sawmill Brook Parkway?). Except--possibly--for the WRKO site, I know of no site--available or not--from which WEEI could improve its signal. Any move would invoke the ratchet rule, which would result in a reduction of the signal strength in areas where WEEI needs the coverage.