• Get involved.
    We want your input!
    Apply for Membership and join the conversations about everything related to broadcasting.

    After we receive your registration, a moderator will review it. After your registration is approved, you will be permitted to post.
    If you use a disposable or false email address, your registration will be rejected.

    After your membership is approved, please take a minute to tell us a little bit about yourself.
    https://www.radiodiscussions.com/forums/introduce-yourself.1088/

    Thanks in advance and have fun!
    RadioDiscussions Administrators

Signal Mix up

N

NeonKnight

Guest
Here's an odd thing that has happened many times and I'm wondering if anyone has an answer. I'm watching a program on KMEX right now and during the commercial, it abruptly changes into a transmission on Dodger baseball in English, then suddenly changes back into the program normally on. I've seen this on many other channels, a brief interruption with another program appearing, then suddenly disappearing, like the signals getting crossed.
Why does this happen?
 
> Here's an odd thing that has happened many times and I'm
> wondering if anyone has an answer. I'm watching a program
> on KMEX right now and during the commercial, it abruptly
> changes into a transmission on Dodger baseball in English,
> then suddenly changes back into the program normally on.
> I've seen this on many other channels, a brief interruption
> with another program appearing, then suddenly disappearing,
> like the signals getting crossed.
> Why does this happen?

Based on experience, I'd guess there's a playful master control
operator somewhere.

I once worked with a guy who, when the late-nite movies were
running a cowboys-and-indians movie would cut between the
period battle scenes to one of several WW-II tanks and
aircraft film. Maybe only a second or so but it sure drove
viewers nuts believing they had not seen what they just saw!

Of course it COULD be accidental...and, like, I never inhaled....
<P ID="signature">______________
Yes, and even the fleas on their children's pets, the cockroaches under their sinks and the fleas on their camels.</P>
 
> > Here's an odd thing that has happened many times and I'm
> > wondering if anyone has an answer. I'm watching a program
>
> > on KMEX right now and during the commercial, it abruptly
> > changes into a transmission on Dodger baseball in English,
>
> > then suddenly changes back into the program normally on.
> > I've seen this on many other channels, a brief
> interruption
> > with another program appearing, then suddenly
> disappearing,
> > like the signals getting crossed.
> > Why does this happen?
>
> Based on experience, I'd guess there's a playful master
> control
> operator somewhere.
>
> I once worked with a guy who, when the late-nite movies were
>
> running a cowboys-and-indians movie would cut between the
> period battle scenes to one of several WW-II tanks and
> aircraft film. Maybe only a second or so but it sure drove
> viewers nuts believing they had not seen what they just saw!
>
> I used to be a master control engineer at a small TV station in Upstate N. Y. At this station the engineer had to do everything. Do all the switching (except news) set up cameras, Load all the VCRs and and films plus be on the transmitter log.
> One night I was training a new guy. He was pretty much set to go. While we were on the nightly network news we taped the news briefs that aired later and I would set up the local shows that ran 7-8. I was pretty busy. The shows were Jokers Wild and Tic Tac Dough. I took the tapes off the shelf and gave them to the new guy. He loaded the 7:30 show (Tic Tac)by mistake and then he switched the 6:58 break while I handled a controversy with the news dept. So on goes the 7:30 show instead of the 7:00 show. It ran about two minutes before I noticed it. I grabbed the 7:00 show, put it on the quad machine and fast forward it to about where it should be time wise. I then ran over to the master control board and just put it on the air. So it went something like this.... Wink Martindale on Tic Tac Dough asking the question, "What are pickels made of? And suddenly Jack Barry on the screen saying that's right! Albany is the correct answer!. You know we didn't get one phone call.
 
> >
> > I used to be a master control engineer at a small TV
> station in Upstate N. Y. At this station the engineer had to
> do everything. Do all the switching (except news) set up
> cameras, Load all the VCRs and and films plus be on the
> transmitter log.
> > One night I was training a new guy. He was pretty much
> set to go. While we were on the nightly network news we
> taped the news briefs that aired later and I would set up
> the local shows that ran 7-8. I was pretty busy. The shows
> were Jokers Wild and Tic Tac Dough. I took the tapes off
> the shelf and gave them to the new guy. He loaded the 7:30
> show (Tic Tac)by mistake and then he switched the 6:58 break
> while I handled a controversy with the news dept. So on
> goes the 7:30 show instead of the 7:00 show. It ran about
> two minutes before I noticed it. I grabbed the 7:00 show,
> put it on the quad machine and fast forward it to about
> where it should be time wise. I then ran over to the master
> control board and just put it on the air. So it went
> something like this.... Wink Martindale on Tic Tac Dough
> asking the question, "What are pickels made of? And suddenly
> Jack Barry on the screen saying that's right! Albany is the
> correct answer!. You know we didn't get one phone call.
>

Ahhhhhhh, so it's you mischevous gremlins all along eh? I thought for some strange reason the signals flying around out there just invade one another.
Who knew?
 
Re: Signal Mix up-some possible causes

> Here's an odd thing that has happened many times and I'm
> wondering if anyone has an answer. I'm watching a program
> on KMEX right now and during the commercial, it abruptly
> changes into a transmission on Dodger baseball in English,
> then suddenly changes back into the program normally on.
> I've seen this on many other channels, a brief interruption
> with another program appearing, then suddenly disappearing,
> like the signals getting crossed.
> Why does this happen?
>

A couple of things come to mind...

TV stations have tons of signals coming in from all sorts of places. Push a button, something different's on the air.

I'm north of Sacramento so I don't know whether KMEX carries the Dodgers at any time which might explain why the video was the Dodgers, but regardless... someone in Master Control could have accidentally hit one of the MC switcher buttons and you saw whatever was feeding that input at the time, until someone saw the glitch and hit the input with the correct program. An "oops!"

Could be a big oops depending on the attitude of the engineering and program managers.

Back in the days of FCC logging requirements it would have been an item that needed logging, if I'm recalling my experience correctly.

Or maybe there was some glitch in the automation programming, if the station has automation generally running the show. That's what's in control most of the time when stations shift to a server-based airplay model.

If you're watching cable or satellite channels, you'll may see a commercial break that has either the start of the first spot in a break run for a second (maybe a syllable or two) and then different commercial starts.

OR... you'll see the end of a commercial, then a cut to the last few syllables of a commercial just ending, then back to program.

That's what happens when the clock in the local or regional commercial insertion system is not synchronized with the network.

Broadcast and cable networks have "avails" (commercial slots) available for local stations, cable systems and satellite providers to put their own content into.

It's annoying, especially if you were actually interested in the thing that got "clipped."

It happens also on some poorly operated radio stations that take a lot of satellite programming.

Then, one of the issues is that with three or four networks being switched to and from, few to none might arrive at the station at the exact time, so the "top of the hour" on one network could be earlier or later than another by a fraction of a second or more.

The number of sattelite hops affects the delay... so even if all the networks were actually "synced" to one common time source, the trip to space and back (sometimes more than once) can delay one network against another... or the locally established time.

Many networks fire a "time sync" signal of some kind around 58:00 to help reset local station automation... but that doesn't guarantee clipping will be avoided.

A good operator (management or button pusher) will tweak the automation timing to correct the problem so you'd never be aware of the problem.

Sloppy operaters don't.

What's also more of a problem is sudden major jumps in audio levels when a switch to a locally inserted commercial on cable or satellite. You can't grab the remote fast enough!

In the analog realm, audio processing (compressors and limiters) would tend to minimize the jump from the listener's end of things... but I don't recall a box designed to be hung on the output of a purely digital situation... yet.

Ted.
 
Re: Signal Mix up-some possible causes

> I'm north of Sacramento so I don't know whether KMEX carries
> the Dodgers at any time which might explain why the video
> was the Dodgers, but regardless... someone in Master Control
> could have accidentally hit one of the MC switcher buttons
> and you saw whatever was feeding that input at the time,
> until someone saw the glitch and hit the input with the
> correct program. An "oops!"
>
> Could be a big oops depending on the attitude of the
> engineering and program managers.

Well I remember my days in TV when traffic would schedule
73-seconds of spots/ID in a 63-second network avail and the
master control operator would be reprimanded for having
clipped network or for failing to run a 10-second spot.
A total no-win situation which, of itself, justified having
a union.<P ID="signature">______________
Appoint a special prosecutor NOW! For any imagined offense by anybody. The trial lawyers need the work; they multiply like rats!</P>
 
Re: Signal Mix up-some possible causes

> ...maybe there was some glitch in the automation
> programming, if the station has automation generally running
> the show. That's what's in control most of the time when
> stations shift to a server-based airplay model.
>
> ...one of the issues is that with three or four networks
> being switched to and from, few to none might arrive at the
> station at the exact time, so the "top of the hour" on one
> network could be earlier or later than another by a fraction
> of a second or more.
>

In some cases, there may be bugs which caused everything to go haywire at a station that uses satellite and/or automation. At the Michigan Buzzboard (http://www.mibuzzboard.com/), someone mentioned that, a couple of months ago, the syndicated "Lionel" show on WJIM-AM in Lansing MI would, after the show started, run for 3 seconds, then go to commercial, then return to the show for 3 seconds more, then cut to commercial, then so on, until they reached the top-of-hour ID -- about 45 minutes too early. After the ID, it was dead air until network news came on. This happened every night until the station's programmers decide to replace it with Dr. Dean Edell. The fault was ultimately not the station's equipment, but rather the feed from WOR, which had faulty cues for automation equipment, leading WJIM to drop the show until WOR fixed the problem.
 
Status
This thread has been closed due to inactivity. You can create a new thread to discuss this topic.


Back
Top Bottom