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Single Frequency Networks and AM HD Radio?

W

wbz1030

Guest
Is it possible to set up a single frequency network with multiple AM (mediumwave) transmitters running in an all digital AM HD Radio mode?

I know there have been many studies and tests done on this for FM using the iBiquity system and DRM+ system.

Thanks.

(Please let keep the AM HD Radio bashing to a minimum. This is a theoretical technical question.)
 
The things that would concern me the most are:

(1) Transmission is not instantaneous - at night, skywave would cause the signals to be received at different signal strengths and different times. This would create jitter on the digital signal, and if the jitter was bad enough, there is no way for the system to stay locked. It is also impossible to time the various skywaves, because every location in the country would require the signals to be delayed differently.

(2) Adjacent channel interference would still be a factor. Unless 1 to 2 frequencies either side of the single frequency were vacated, interference would still potentially cause a loss of lock.

(3) Would the frequency be blank internationally, or just domestically? If not - then unfriendly governments like Cuba could still put a station on the air, interfering with digital reception.

(4) Interference from natural and man-made sources would still be problematic. One lightning storm in the vicinity, and digital transmission is done until the weather passes. Also the same man-made sources of interference - CFL's for example - will cause loss of lock.

(5) AM is even worse at penetrating buildings than FM. So there would still be no advantage for the office worker.
 
To clarify - the question is in applications of a local single frequency networks. That is a network of lower powered, medium wave transmitters (as opposed to a single, relatively higher power transmitter) that is optimized for local area coverage.

So to comment on your points brought up thus far,

> (1) Transmission is not instantaneous - at night, skywave would cause the signals to be received at different signal strengths
> and different times. This would create jitter on the digital signal, and if the jitter was bad enough, there is no way for the
> system to stay locked. It is also impossible to time the various skywaves, because every location in the country would require
> the signals to be delayed differently.

This is all true. However, let's consider the network is relatively low powered and the network uses lower efficiency antenna that minimize skywave propagation. The goal is to maximize local area coverage.

> (2) Adjacent channel interference would still be a factor. Unless 1 to 2 frequencies either side of the single frequency were
> vacated, interference would still potentially cause a loss of lock.

This potentially could be a factor at nighttime. Let's assume the SFN is purely operated in an all digital mode which occupies a 10 kHz (or a 20 kHz) bandwidth. Let's also assume the receiving radio has adequate adjacent and alternate channel selectivity. Adjacent channel interference would also be a problem for an analog AM station as well.

> (3) Would the frequency be blank internationally, or just domestically? If not - then unfriendly governments like Cuba could
> still put a station on the air, interfering with digital reception.

Let's again assume a local channel case where external interference (on channel) is not an issue. Cuba has put on stations that had (or continues) to be an issue with analog AM stations as well.

> (4) Interference from natural and man-made sources would still be problematic. One lightning storm in the vicinity, and
> digital transmission is done until the weather passes. Also the same man-made sources of interference - CFL's for example - will
> cause loss of lock.

This is already an issue with AM HD Radio the way it is implemented now. One of the goals of a SFN would be to increase the local signal strength distributed more equally across the intended coverage area than a single (big stick) approach.

> (5) AM is even worse at penetrating buildings than FM. So there would still be no advantage for the office worker.

Again one of the goals of a SFN would be to increase the local signal strength distributed more equally across the intended coverage area than a single (big stick) approach. There may be a better chance, with a SFN approach, at building penetration in the medium wave (AM) band.
 
wbz1030, if you want to keep the tone of this thread civil, kindly refrain from referring to HD-opposing parties here as engaging in "bashing." That is, if you don't want to be called names in retort.

I gather from your sig that you are officially connected with WBZ-HD?
 
wbz1030 said:
To clarify - the question is in applications of a local single frequency networks. That is a network of lower powered, medium wave transmitters (as opposed to a single, relatively higher power transmitter) that is optimized for local area coverage.

So to comment on your points brought up thus far,

> (1) Transmission is not instantaneous - at night, skywave would cause the signals to be received at different signal strengths
> and different times. This would create jitter on the digital signal, and if the jitter was bad enough, there is no way for the
> system to stay locked. It is also impossible to time the various skywaves, because every location in the country would require
> the signals to be delayed differently.

This is all true. However, let's consider the network is relatively low powered and the network uses lower efficiency antenna that minimize skywave propagation. The goal is to maximize local area coverage.

> (2) Adjacent channel interference would still be a factor. Unless 1 to 2 frequencies either side of the single frequency were
> vacated, interference would still potentially cause a loss of lock.

This potentially could be a factor at nighttime. Let's assume the SFN is purely operated in an all digital mode which occupies a 10 kHz (or a 20 kHz) bandwidth. Let's also assume the receiving radio has adequate adjacent and alternate channel selectivity. Adjacent channel interference would also be a problem for an analog AM station as well.

> (3) Would the frequency be blank internationally, or just domestically? If not - then unfriendly governments like Cuba could
> still put a station on the air, interfering with digital reception.

Let's again assume a local channel case where external interference (on channel) is not an issue. Cuba has put on stations that had (or continues) to be an issue with analog AM stations as well.

> (4) Interference from natural and man-made sources would still be problematic. One lightning storm in the vicinity, and
> digital transmission is done until the weather passes. Also the same man-made sources of interference - CFL's for example - will
> cause loss of lock.

This is already an issue with AM HD Radio the way it is implemented now. One of the goals of a SFN would be to increase the local signal strength distributed more equally across the intended coverage area than a single (big stick) approach.

> (5) AM is even worse at penetrating buildings than FM. So there would still be no advantage for the office worker.

Again one of the goals of a SFN would be to increase the local signal strength distributed more equally across the intended coverage area than a single (big stick) approach. There may be a better chance, with a SFN approach, at building penetration in the medium wave (AM) band.

First of all WBZ1030, thanks for bringing something more of an intellectual and technical discussion to this board, whether your ideas play out or not. To me it's a welcome change from reading the same anti, or pro-IBOC mantras.

I believe even if one were able to provide a "distributed" or cellular approach to delivering digitally modulated signals in the Medium Wave broadcast band, there would be two hurdles: One that comes to mind is the need to sync and delay all the individual carriers so you don't end up with lost bits due to cancellation from carrier shift and overlap. The other would be just the physics already presented here. Unless one put a sub-transmitter on every floor, of every office building in a market, you would still have problems with reception of Medium Wave signals due to the Faraday effect combined with terrestrial noise at those wavelengths.

Several years ago I got an expermental license, and attempted to build an on-channel booster for an AM station that my friends owned. Obviously we couldn't exceed the allocated RMS for the station, but the idea ibeing that we could fill-in the downtown corridor with additional field strength. Even with the analog signal and the main and booster oscillators locked to GPS, plus audio delay added to the main station to match the booster audio, there was still a +- one cycle shift in the audio at the carriers and audio where the field strength of the main station, equaled the booster. Unfortunately the overlap area was too large to ignore, and in the end became a deal-breaker. Unlike FM or DTV booster stations, at low frequencies and the associated ground wave, just using terrain to create a barrier between the main and booster won't solve the problem. Using the conventional thinking with the existing IBOC algorithms, I suspect decoding the fragile bitstream would be a problem with any frequency shift.

Okay so that is in my view why it wouldn't work, now let's look at how it could work... There isn't any practical way to get around the Faraday cage physics issues of buildings, tunnels, etc., but there may be a way to overcome the overlap shift packet delivery issues. The solution would involve massive Bit Error Correction on the transmit and receive sides, in that the packets would be repeated multiples over time on the transmit side. On the receive side, the demodulating device would have a decent sized cache, (buffer), which wouldn't be able to play the audio out until it all arrives at the device, (QOS). Obviously the latency would not allow this to fit within the traditional live radio model, and would be more of a MP3 and QOS file delivery process.
 
wbz1030 said:
Is it possible to set up a single frequency network with multiple AM (mediumwave) transmitters running in an all digital AM HD Radio mode?

I know there have been many studies and tests done on this for FM using the iBiquity system and DRM+ system.

Thanks.

(Please let keep the AM HD Radio bashing to a minimum. This is a theoretical technical question.)

Why is WBZ going to shut off their hash maker any time soon? Used to be a decent sounding station until it was turned on, it used to come in better also.
This is not HD bashing, hash is the name for HD's best and most well known effect on adjacent channels on the the AM band.
 
For those who are wondering, I am not associated with WBZ radio, CBS Radio, nor iBiquity. I am not even associated with any type of broadcasting field nor amateur radio. (Although, I did listen in on WBZ radio from several states away when I was a kid with a little transistor radio)

However, I am an RF engineer (in a totally un-related field), so I do have a technical background and I am familiar with various modulation and transmission methods. I just have a technical question to ask.
 
In addition to the problems rbruce mentions, the logistics of constructing new (efficient) medium wave transmit antennas would be a major hurdle to overcome if an AM broadcaster were to build an SFN to improve market coverage. AM transmitter facilities usually require a few acres of open land, fairly tall radiators, and lots of buried copper -- but VHF transmit antennas can be attached to existing rental towers.

Yes, there are shortened MW antennas available, such as Valcom whips, but their narrower bandwidth might cause problems with a digital signal.

For this and other reasons, I favor the proposal to move AM digital operations to a VHF band, as discussed in this post:

http://www.radio-info.com/smf/index.php/topic,106320.0.html
 
> In addition to the problems rbruce mentions, the logistics of constructing new (efficient) medium wave transmit
> antennas would be a major hurdle to overcome if an AM broadcaster were to build an SFN to improve market coverage.
> AM transmitter facilities usually require a few acres of open land, fairly tall radiators, and lots of buried copper --
> but VHF transmit antennas can be attached to existing rental towers.
> Yes, there are shortened MW antennas available, such as Valcom whips, but their narrower bandwidth might cause
> problems with a digital signal.

Larger antenna structures are an issue at AM (medium wave) frequencies. However, for a distributed SFN we would be talking about several in-efficient antenna scattered in a pattern around a coverage area. There has also been research in recent years into less obtrusive structures such as this...

http://www.antennasonline.com/images/star-h.pdf

> For this and other reasons, I favor the proposal to move AM digital operations to a VHF band...

That is a good solution. I agree.

However, let us assume the situation is as it is now where a station owns a license for broadcasting on a single medium wave frequency in a given area. Can the quality of service be increased with a digital only SFN type coverage on medium wave over using a single, higher power transmitter? What is the optimal arrangement of a digital only SFN on medium wave (if it could be done)? That is - a network of two, three, four transmitter sites running 100w - 1kW each to equal one 5kw - 10kW - 25 kW single transmitter coverage area.
 
Play Freebird said:
For this and other reasons, I favor the proposal to move AM digital operations to a VHF band

That's wonderful, and when the public gets to vote on such an idea, we know which way you'll go.

But the public DOESN'T get to vote on these matters. The government has decided, in its own selfish way, that it doesn't care about AM & FM radio, and that it wants to sell the VHF band for billions of dollars.

So they let the AM & FM folks basically do whatever they want (unless they say bad words), and the devote the majority of their time fighting amongst themselves, often in the very media they're supposed to regulate.

And they wonder why their approval ratings are so low.
 
TheBigA said:
But the public DOESN'T get to vote on these matters. The government has decided, in its own selfish way, that it doesn't care about AM & FM radio, and that it wants to sell the VHF band for billions of dollars.

Actually - one of the prime candidates for the use of the spectrum will be mobile Internet broadband. I'm really looking foward to the possibility - the lower band you go in channels 2-6, the better the propagation to the point that what was originally channel 1 was unusable, and channel 2 is almost unusable. This has some really nice implications for broadband in the car. Of course I will be using it to stream stations that have formats I like more than what is available now. It truly will be stations from all over the world, in your car. Whatever format you like.

Who knows - maybe stations that are marginal in their local market will develop an internet following and make money beyond their wildest dreams.
 
rbrucecarter5 said:
Who knows - maybe stations that are marginal in their local market will develop an internet following and make money beyond their wildest dreams.

I think that will happen. On a normal month, even my little LPFM stations gets between 20,000 and 30,000 tune-ins on the Internet. I get emails every day from people all around the world that are listening. That is without actually promoting it. Right now, it does not make any significant money for us, but I can see how it could. If web radio in your car becomes universal, this could be huge.

I know that if I had a choice of paying for XM/Sirius or Internet in my car, all things being equal, I'd pick the Internet. I think most people would. I'm currently paying for XM, but I'd switch in a heartbeat if I could. If it were about the same price, wouldn’t you?.

By the way, our station does jump through the hoops of fire imposed by Sound Exchange to stream on the Web. It isn't pleasant, but it is not an insurmountable hurdle, even for a small station. Despite rumors to the contrary, RIAA will probably not kill Internet radio.
 
rbrucecarter5 said:
TheBigA said:
But the public DOESN'T get to vote on these matters. The government has decided, in its own selfish way, that it doesn't care about AM & FM radio, and that it wants to sell the VHF band for billions of dollars.

Actually - one of the prime candidates for the use of the spectrum will be mobile Internet broadband. I'm really looking foward to the possibility - the lower band you go in channels 2-6, the better the propagation to the point that what was originally channel 1 was unusable, and channel 2 is almost unusable. This has some really nice implications for broadband in the car. Of course I will be using it to stream stations that have formats I like more than what is available now. It truly will be stations from all over the world, in your car. Whatever format you like.

Who knows - maybe stations that are marginal in their local market will develop an internet following and make money beyond their wildest dreams.

There are already allocations for this type of service in the vacated UHF band. This is moot unless all DTV vacates channel 6.
 
wbz1030 said:
However, let us assume the situation is as it is now where a station owns a license for broadcasting on a single medium wave frequency in a given area. Can the quality of service be increased with a digital only SFN type coverage on medium wave over using a single, higher power transmitter? What is the optimal arrangement of a digital only SFN on medium wave (if it could be done)? That is - a network of two, three, four transmitter sites running 100w - 1kW each to equal one 5kw - 10kW - 25 kW single transmitter coverage area.

I haven't looked for much info on this, but a good place to start might be in the library of BBC tech papers. Analog medium-wave SFNs have been operating in the UK for many years (example: Virgin Radio on 1215 kHz) so it would seem that some research has been done to determine if these could go digital.
 
wbz1030 said:
Is it possible to set up a single frequency network with multiple AM (mediumwave) transmitters running in an all digital AM HD Radio mode?

I know there have been many studies and tests done on this for FM using the iBiquity system and DRM+ system.

The answer is yes, it would be technically feasible, especially if you're only after extended groundwave coverage... skywave is more iffy, of course. The DRM system in particular was designed to facilitate SFN operation. One obvious application would be to drop an SFN coverage booster into the middle of a city, to help overcome high urban noise levels and building penetration losses.
 
I'm with rbrucecarter5 (and others) here. Even if the signals left their respective antennas in perfect sync, they'd soon lose sync, and interfere with one another.

It's one of the biggest problems with C-Quam AM Stereo. The carrier and sidebands leave the tower in perfect sync, with actually quite remarkable sound quality. A few miles out, even in broad daylight, carrier and sideband phase and amplitude relationships begin to randomly shift, causing what old guys here remember was called "platform motion"...i.e. the stereo image shifts back and forth from left to right randomly. Ya' could get seasick listening!

Now compound the problem with multiple transmitters and antennas, radiating from different locations. While signals may leave in bit-locked perfect sync, I see no way they'd stay that way for long. Nature beats the crap out of mediumwave signals! With standard AM, it doesn't make much difference. Wtih other modulation types, it makes ALL the difference!
 
Mike Walker said:
I'm with rbrucecarter5 (and others) here. Even if the signals left their respective antennas in perfect sync, they'd soon lose sync, and interfere with one another.

It's one of the biggest problems with C-Quam AM Stereo. The carrier and sidebands leave the tower in perfect sync, with actually quite remarkable sound quality. A few miles out, even in broad daylight, carrier and sideband phase and amplitude relationships begin to randomly shift, causing what old guys here remember was called "platform motion"...i.e. the stereo image shifts back and forth from left to right randomly. Ya' could get seasick listening!

Now compound the problem with multiple transmitters and antennas, radiating from different locations. While signals may leave in bit-locked perfect sync, I see no way they'd stay that way for long. Nature beats the crap out of mediumwave signals! With standard AM, it doesn't make much difference. Wtih other modulation types, it makes ALL the difference!

You guys are applying analog thinking to the SFN concept. :)

With analog modulation techniques, it's true that multipath (whether from reflections or from multiple transmitters) spells nothing but trouble. Digital transmission using OFDM is different - it eats multipath for breakfast. :) You do need synchronization between transmitters, but that is easily obtained with GPS - and you can also use on-channel repeaters, that require no synchronization (just some isolation between input and output, so they don't turn into an oscillator!). The main requirement in an OFDM SFN is that the transmitters be spaced such that the propagation delay between them is less than the OFDM "guard interval". In the DRM system, this parameter is a minimum of 2.7 ms (maximum spacing of about 800 km), so this would not be a problem for typical AM scenarios.
 
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