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Sixties/Seventies versus Seventies/Eighties; where to go?

K

kturnerga

Guest
Hi !
I am wanting to suggest a format for my favorite station. It plays a little Sixties, Seventies (especially late Seventies), Eighties, and some newer material. It is billed as Adult Contemporary but is top heavy on Seventies. I want it to junk all but Seventies and either Eighties or Sixties. I heard that the Sixties oldies is a burnt-out format. Our demo here is baby-boomer working-class Southern age 34-60. Where do I go with this; what format has the best mix?
KT
 
These days, most classic hit stations are featuring some mid-late 60's, mostly 70's and some contemporary 80's. This is a great mix! The early-mid 60's and late 50's are supposedly targeted now to the 55+ crowd.
If your demo is to age 60, then stick a few of these in too, but every so often.

I would not go into anything past 1986/87 yet...except a rare contemporary. Play more early 80's, since this was the highlight of the true 80's sound. Have themed weekends too, for example (all 70's, Sat. night disco, all motown, all #1 songs, Top 500..etc....)

The 60's are not burnt out, just certain songs (heavy, repetitive airplay). Play them, but not so frequent.
Just a suggestion.

Stations with heavy repetition burn me out. There are hundreds upon hundreds, if not thousands of big hits & songs to play from this wonderful era...choose your best!!
 
Thank you for the reply. Sixties and Seventies may be the way (post 1967). I wonder why the repetitive playing of tracks; is it the company that sends out playlists, MP3s or did someone buy some Time Life AM Gold after seeing the late night commercials?

I have my favorite Seventies; "Ride Captain Ride", "Crackerbox Palace", "Edmund Fitzgerald", and whatever is Al Green, Barry White, Captain and Tennille, Carpenters, or Olivia Newton-John. Nobody can tell me I have to listen to the "It's Raining Men" song every day of the freakin' week.

I listen to an old KHJ or WLS aircheck from the Seventies and want to throw a rock at that AC station. We have another oldies station which is an AM that goes dark with the sun and still another south of Macon GA which has a poor signal (and programmed by Jones).
KT
 
kturnerga Thank you for the reply. Sixties and Seventies may be the way (post 1967). I wonder why the repetitive playing of tracks; is it the company that sends out playlists, MP3s or did someone buy some Time Life AM Gold after seeing the late night commercials?

You're welcome..

The repetition is caused by stations testing average citizens on which songs should and should not be aired. Playlists are based on "Mediabase" and these playlists are as a result of this testing..They supposedly test around 100 people and get the results this way, several times a year. Personally, I think this severely limits the amount of songs that can be aired, thus the frequent repetition of songs on a daily basis. Many oldies and classic hits stations only rotate about 400-500 songs, aside from themed weekends

I'm no expert on this subject, but I've been told this on other posts.

Grab one of those Joel Whitburn books that lists all the songs & artists that charted on the Hot 100....Very valuable tool.
 
oldies76 said:
Grab one of those Joel Whitburn books that lists all the songs & artists that charted on the Hot 100....Very valuable tool.

Ouch! You can't mention charts on this board. The radio programming "experts" will go ballistic.
 
TheFonz said:
oldies76 said:
Grab one of those Joel Whitburn books that lists all the songs & artists that charted on the Hot 100....Very valuable tool.

Ouch! You can't mention charts on this board. The radio programming "experts" will go ballistic.

There are two reasons for that...

One: the charts are national, radio stations are mostly local. The lists for individual stations in the late 50's and well into the 60's were quite different, even on the big hits.

Two: the national trade charts were so influenced by record company shennagans in that period that they are often best taken with many, many grains of salt.
 
oldies76 said:
The repetition is caused by stations testing average citizens on which songs should and should not be aired.

Wrong, wrong and wrong.

Oldies stations or classic hits stations test people who actually listen to this type of format within a very tight age span, ususally 35 to 55. These are not just "average citizins" but people who like oldies and listen to them on the radio.

The people who participate in music tests are not asked whether the songs should be aired or not, but, rather, how much they would like to hear the song on the radio today. In the best of testing methodologies, they score from 1 to 100.

Playlists are based on "Mediabase"

Other way around. MediaBase is based on playlists. MediaBase logs what stations play.

and these playlists are as a result of this testing..

What mediabase reports is what stations play. The reasons any station plays the songs they do are likely a combination of fit, lack of negatives, positive appeal, era, the PD's vision for the station, etc.

They supposedly test around 100 people and get the results this way, several times a year. Personally, I think this severely limits the amount of songs that can be aired, thus the frequent repetition of songs on a daily basis.

Why would the number of persons at a test or the frequency of testing affect the number of songs? A station can test 1500 songs, and if only 400 are positive enough for play, then they play 400 songs.

Many oldies and classic hits stations only rotate about 400-500 songs, aside from themed weekends

That is because there are no more songs that are hits today.

I'm no expert on this subject,

No, you are not an expert. You don't even listen to explanations very well, as evidenced by this entire post.

Grab one of those Joel Whitburn books that lists all the songs & artists that charted on the Hot 100....Very valuable tool.

Actually, fairly useless for programming today unless you are from Mars and don't know the songs. The Whitburn book or any other chart book show what charted way back then. They do not take into account regional differences, and they don't take into account the record company games that were played to get songs charted.

But most of all, an oldies or classic hits station today will only play those songs from the past that people want to hear today.
 
DavidEduardo said:
These are not just "average citizins" but people who like oldies and listen to them on the radio.

But most of all, an oldies or classic hits station today will only play those songs from the past that people want to hear today.

These are the "LCD", least common denominator listeners, barely listening, who listen only enough to tune away when something they don't remember comes on. MANY, MANY people are listening for something more interesting and challenging. They won't be served ever by the present system.
If they listen to oldies at all, it is for the "wow" songs.

Where do the music testing services find a such a big bunch of squares to test?
There is apparently no effort to test hipsters. Perhaps they are the wrong demo.

Even Mc Donald's knew they had to widen their menu a bit, not everyone wants a hamburger, fries and a Coke.
Why is it more important in radio to serve the LCD while alienating the active, engaged listener?

How come almost none of my friends enjoy the worn out oldies but enjoy the cooler, more obscure stuff?
How come major market radio has been dis-serving hipsters for the last 25 years?

If you think it hasn't, you are firmly planted in squaresville. Enjoy your 500 officially sanctioned oldies but don't ask me to.
 
If the national charts don't take into account regional differences, then use a source that does! Radio station surveys (format appropriate, of course) for the time period in question. Such surveys are posted all over the internet!

Where this becomes a problem is when the big chains try to program (via satellite) all their stations across the country with just one feed, and then must rely on the LCD to tell them what to play!
 
Tom Wells said:
Even Mc Donald's knew they had to widen their menu a bit, not everyone wants a hamburger, fries and a Coke.
Why is it more important in radio to serve the LCD while alienating the active, engaged listener?

Is that so? How many "new" items have they introduced over the years that were still on the menu a year later?
I'll bet 90+% of their business is in burgers, fries, Coke & egg McMuffins.
 
That reminds me they sold a lot of My Girls, Brown Eyed Girls, Unchained Melodys, and Pretty Womans. But since I don't listen a lot (anymore) to the "Classic Hits" format of 2008, what ARE the songs which are getting the most airplay. Can't be the ones I just mentioned anymore, right? So what 70s oldie are ppl going to soon be sick of in a month after 200 plays in 30 days?
 
Oldbones said:
Tom Wells said:
Even Mc Donald's knew they had to widen their menu a bit, not everyone wants a hamburger, fries and a Coke.
Why is it more important in radio to serve the LCD while alienating the active, engaged listener?

Is that so? How many "new" items have they introduced over the years that were still on the menu a year later?
I'll bet 90+% of their business is in burgers, fries, Coke & egg McMuffins.
Supposedly, a lobster sandwich (McLobster?) is on the menu at a McDonald's in Maine! I don't know because I've never been there, but my parents told me this.

So there might be something to this whole "regionalism" thing after all!
 
firepoint525 said:
Supposedly, a lobster sandwich (McLobster?) is on the menu at a McDonald's in Maine! I don't know because I've never been there, but my parents told me this.

So there might be something to this whole "regionalism" thing after all!

Yep. If you go around the world, you find things like the McPalta in Argentina... a Big Mac with avocado in place of the shredded green stuff.
 
firepoint525 said:
If the national charts don't take into account regional differences, then use a source that does! Radio station surveys (format appropriate, of course) for the time period in question. Such surveys are posted all over the internet!

The national charts from the 50's and 60's and into the 70's were based mostly on sales, not airplay. And sales was readily manipulated by the record companies with generous returns, free product, incentives to report sales that di dnot exist, etc.

Radio station lists were often a big part fiction... no sales base, just a list of what the station was playing, often based on nothing more than the PDs opinion. In competitive markets, stations often faked their lists so competitors would not know the rotations.

Where this becomes a problem is when the big chains try to program (via satellite) all their stations across the country with just one feed, and then must rely on the LCD to tell them what to play!

In large markets, this seldom happens. Satellite delivered formats tend to be either talk shows or for much smaller markets or small stations or suburban stations in the larger markets or, like Smooth Jazz, niche formats that are hard to do locally. I have no idea what the "LCD" comment refers to; stations play the songs that the largest number of oldies fans want to hear.
 
Tom Wells said:
These are the "LCD", least common denominator listeners, barely listening, who listen only enough to tune away when something they don't remember comes on.

Music test participants are generally mostly or totally P1 listeners to the station and must, generally, be in the top two or three quintiles of the P1 segment of the audience. P1's by nature are the heaviest listeners, those who produce about 75% of all quarter hours listened although they are only around 35% of the cume. Test participants are, then, the heaviest listeners because they produce the bulk of listening.

MANY, MANY people are listening for something more interesting and challenging.

Actually, that is untrue. Listeners to oldies who have been in peceptual projcets I am familiar with want very familiar songs that they sing along with and that, in many cases, evoke pleasant memories. Essentially none are looking for songs that were no both big hits and are enduring in value today. In fact, most listeners are embarassed by the Big John and Yummy Yummy type of songs.

They won't be served ever by the present system. If they listen to oldies at all, it is for the "wow" songs.

"Oh Wow" songs are only accepted by most if a good reason is given for playing them and if they are played about once a year in the daypart that the individual lister tunes in. Remember that the average listener spends 5 to 8 hours a week with their favorite station, so they will hear the fastest rotated songs every two to three weeks at the most.

Where do the music testing services find a such a big bunch of squares to test?

Research companies use local research recruiters who do recruiting for a living... for radio, for consumer goods, for political parties, for government funding, etc. The take the recruit specifications and find people who fit the spec... for oldies it would be something like 50% each men and women, 35 to 54, with age balance on each 5 year subset, P1 to the station and listen for more than 7 or even 8 hours a week (making them typical P1s). If the market is heavily Hispanic, a percentage of recruits may be requered to be Hispanic, too.

There is apparently no effort to test hipsters. Perhaps they are the wrong demo.

The only usable demo for oldies is 35-54. As far as I know, essentially all oldies listeners would not be considered hip... they are conservative, less given to change, not terribly accepting of newer music types, etc.

Even Mc Donald's knew they had to widen their menu a bit, not everyone wants a hamburger, fries and a Coke.
Why is it more important in radio to serve the LCD while alienating the active, engaged listener?

Variety on the radio menu comes from listening to different stations, not by making one station unlistenable. If you go to McFonalds for a burger, you do not have to eat a salad. On radio, you have to listen to everything presented... you can't skip it like things you dislike or are not in the mood for on a menu. Bad, bad analogy.

How come almost none of my friends enjoy the worn out oldies but enjoy the cooler, more obscure stuff?
How come major market radio has been dis-serving hipsters for the last 25 years?

Because there are very, very, very, very, very (did I say "very?") few of them. Those of us who program only wish our competitor would start playing a deep playlist with lots of obscure songs or deep cuts.

If you think it hasn't, you are firmly planted in squaresville. Enjoy your 500 officially sanctioned oldies but don't ask me to.

Fine, then go away. Radio could never please folks like you, not just today.
 
Supposedly, discussing the charts here is taboo, but I'm going to, anyway. Up until 1958, Billboard published at least four different charts: the "best sellers," the "jockeys," a "juke box" survey, and one called the "top 100." And then, in 1958, they unveiled the Hot 100, which they have published ever since. Apparently, they condensed these others down into the Hot 100. The "best sellers" was obviously a sales chart; "jockeys" was apparently a survey of disc jockeys; "juke box" is self-explanatory, although I have no idea how it was calculated or tabulated; and the "top 100" is anyone's guess. "Best sellers" is obviously analogous to our modern day "sales" chart, and the "jockeys" survey is synonymous with the present day airplay chart. I still don't know what the difference was in the old "top 100" and the current Hot 100.

Looking, for instance, at WLS surveys from the '70s, I see a heavy emphasis on midwest bands like Styx, REO Speedwagon, Kansas, Chicago, Bob Seger, and others. This does not come as any surprise to me. There is not necessarily anything in there I'm not familiar with; it's just better represented in Chicago than elsewhere. Likewise, where I grew up, southern rock had a better showing. There may have been a few bands over the years who only went "regional" and never quite got "national," but by and large, most of us were listening to the same music at the same time, only some of us with an emphasis on one style more than another.

Looking at Nashville surveys from the '60s would only serve to confuse. The top 40s here were evidently playing a mix of pop, R&B, country, MOR, and maybe some local guys, too, all while still playing the big band leaders of the day. I'm all for going "regional" with a playlist if it will get other brands of music better represented, but I would like to see a better focus than the "full service" stations that we had back then. Most of us probably don't want to listen to the same station(s) that our parents did (anymore).
 
Oldbones said:
Tom Wells said:
Even Mc Donald's knew they had to widen their menu a bit, not everyone wants a hamburger, fries and a Coke.
Why is it more important in radio to serve the LCD while alienating the active, engaged listener?
Is that so? How many "new" items have they introduced over the years that were still on the menu a year later?
I'll bet 90+% of their business is in burgers, fries, Coke & egg McMuffins.
The McRib goes away from time to time, but still comes back every once in a while.
 
DavidEduardo said:
Tom Wells said:
These are the "LCD", least common denominator listeners, barely listening, who listen only enough to tune away when something they don't remember comes on.

Music test participants are generally mostly or totally P1 listeners to the station and must, generally, be in the top two or three quintiles of the P1 segment of the audience. P1's by nature are the heaviest listeners, those who produce about 75% of all quarter hours listened although they are only around 35% of the cume. Test participants are, then, the heaviest listeners because they produce the bulk of listening.

MANY, MANY people are listening for something more interesting and challenging.

Actually, that is untrue. Listeners to oldies who have been in peceptual projcets I am familiar with want very familiar songs that they sing along with and that, in many cases, evoke pleasant memories. Essentially none are looking for songs that were no both big hits and are enduring in value today. In fact, most listeners are embarassed by the Big John and Yummy Yummy type of songs.

They won't be served ever by the present system. If they listen to oldies at all, it is for the "wow" songs.

"Oh Wow" songs are only accepted by most if a good reason is given for playing them and if they are played about once a year in the daypart that the individual lister tunes in. Remember that the average listener spends 5 to 8 hours a week with their favorite station, so they will hear the fastest rotated songs every two to three weeks at the most.

Where do the music testing services find a such a big bunch of squares to test?

Research companies use local research recruiters who do recruiting for a living... for radio, for consumer goods, for political parties, for government funding, etc. The take the recruit specifications and find people who fit the spec... for oldies it would be something like 50% each men and women, 35 to 54, with age balance on each 5 year subset, P1 to the station and listen for more than 7 or even 8 hours a week (making them typical P1s). If the market is heavily Hispanic, a percentage of recruits may be requered to be Hispanic, too.

There is apparently no effort to test hipsters. Perhaps they are the wrong demo.

The only usable demo for oldies is 35-54. As far as I know, essentially all oldies listeners would not be considered hip... they are conservative, less given to change, not terribly accepting of newer music types, etc.

Even Mc Donald's knew they had to widen their menu a bit, not everyone wants a hamburger, fries and a Coke.
Why is it more important in radio to serve the LCD while alienating the active, engaged listener?

Variety on the radio menu comes from listening to different stations, not by making one station unlistenable. If you go to McFonalds for a burger, you do not have to eat a salad. On radio, you have to listen to everything presented... you can't skip it like things you dislike or are not in the mood for on a menu. Bad, bad analogy.

How come almost none of my friends enjoy the worn out oldies but enjoy the cooler, more obscure stuff?
How come major market radio has been dis-serving hipsters for the last 25 years?

Because there are very, very, very, very, very (did I say "very?") few of them. Those of us who program only wish our competitor would start playing a deep playlist with lots of obscure songs or deep cuts.

If you think it hasn't, you are firmly planted in squaresville. Enjoy your 500 officially sanctioned oldies but don't ask me to.

Fine, then go away. Radio could never please folks like you, not just today.
I thought some of us on this board have made very clear that we are sick and tired of being "marginalized" with "novelty" type songs! This simply is not a good analogy!

Let me give you a better example. The Box Tops, a great late '60s group from Memphis (my hometown!). "The Letter" spent four weeks at #1 in 1967. "Cry Like a Baby" was #2 for two weeks in 1968. But the charts are biased and "stacked," you say. Okay, fine! Play "Soul Deep" instead! It was "only" #18 in 1969! And the Box Tops, to the best of my knowledge, never recorded a "novelty" song. Only the cool, serious stuff! So play them instead of a "novelty" song! Won't get any argument from me!

For my money, novelty songs are a format unto themselves, kinda like most country "crossover" songs. I don't know of anyone pining to hear "Achy Breaky Heart" or "Just a Swingin'" or "Elvira" anymore! Those haven't "worn" well, either! But yet I almost never hear of anyone constantly picking on them!
 
DavidEduardo One: the charts are national, radio stations are mostly local. The lists for individual stations in the late 50's and well into the 60's were quite different, even on the big hits.

Two: the national trade charts were so influenced by record company shennagans in that period that they are often best taken with many, many grains of salt.

I am quite aware of that....charts such as the Boss 30 (KHJ) and for WCBS & others reflect the local preferences. 30+ different songs hit #1 each year in 1967, 68 & 69 on KHJ....but far fewer nationally.
 
DavidEduardo Actually, that is untrue. Listeners to oldies who have been in peceptual projcets I am familiar with want very familiar songs that they sing along with and that, in many cases, evoke pleasant memories. Essentially none are looking for songs that were no both big hits and are enduring in value today. In fact, most listeners are embarassed by the Big John and Yummy Yummy type of songs.

Embarrassed?? REALLY? You can't speak for the thousands upon thousands of other listeners & possibly know what "their" tastes are. Tom Wells has a very valid point! Everyone has their favorite songs and oldies & believe me, many people I know too, do not hear some of their favorites hits songs on air either.

Why do you think CBS 101.1 in NY does what they do?? Sure, they play the basics, but they'll do extras on weekends and weeknights to satisfy this crowd that enjoys the more "obscure" hits and songs.

We can debate this till the end of time, my thoughts on expanded playlists will never change.
 
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