Skyscraper FM Reception

[TheDingo]

back in 98 I got a nice catch on tape from the 11th floor of the Phoenix 4 condominium in Orange Beach AL. I was recording local 100kW Arrow 100.7 at the time (now WCOA-FM), when it started fading out and Tampa Bays 100.7 Kiss FM (now WMTX) started overpowering it, about 350 miles over the gulf overpowering a local 100kW. For 12 year old me that was the most amazing thing ever.

 

[charlestondxman]

This is a recent band scan I did from the top of a parking garage in downtown Charleston (I think a five level garage): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pUcH3vEHuoA&feature=youtu.be

 

[gar hi]

Interesting thread.

Being from Jersey, I've always wondered what FM reception would be like from the top of the tallest building in New York or the tallest building in Philadelphia.

Using a distance to horizon and altitude calculator, I found out that from the very top of the Freedom Tower in New York, the very top of the Comcast Center in Philly could actually be seen!

So when you figure that most FM towers are quite high and FM signals go slightly beyond line of sight to the horizon, the FM reception from the top of either of those buildings would be awesome.

 

[fybush]

So when you figure that most FM towers are quite high and FM signals go slightly beyond line of sight to the horizon, the FM reception from the top of either of those buildings would be awesome.

With a directional antenna and a selective receiver, yes, it would. With a typical consumer portable, not so much - especially at the Philly end of that path, you'd mostly just get front-end overload from the FMs on the nearby One Liberty mast.

(At least for now, until anyone starts broadcasting from the new 1WTC, a consumer portable radio might do a little better up there, since the nearest powerful FM signals are quite a few miles uptown at Empire.)

 

[gar hi]

I didn't know that FMs were being broadcast from One Liberty Place.

I assumed they were in surrounding areas like Conshohocken where a lot of broadcast towers are from what I remember.

Those were the days when no structure in Center City was allowed to be taller than the top of the William Penn building.

 

[fybush]

There has always been FM from Center City. WMMR can't go to the Roxborough tower farm because of IF spacing to 103.9, which got there first, so it's locked into a Center City location. That was originally the PSFS building (now the Loews Hotel, where MMR still has an aux) and now One Liberty.

One Liberty is also home to WPHI 107.9, which was the Philadelphia move-in of the former WSNJ-FM 107.7 from south Jersey, and there's at least an aux there for WWIQ 106.9, which was hoping to move its main signal there from Camden.

Other FMs have indeed moved from Center City. WCAU-FM started out on PSFS way back when, but has been in Roxborough for decades. I believe 98.9 was in Center City in its WPBS days. The original 92.5 was KYW-FM from the top of the former KYW building on Walnut Street. Most of the other FMs in town started out either on their AM sticks or on outlying sticks of their own - 94.1 on the 990 towers in Whitemarsh, 95.7 at its Roxborough studios, 96.5 at the WHAT 1340 tower, 102.1 on the WFIL-TV tower in Roxborough, 104.5 on the 1540 towers in Roxborough, 105.3 on the WDAS-AM towers and 106.1 on the old channel 3 tower in Wyndmoor. 101.1 started out in Roxborough. I'm not sure where 102.9 was at the beginning. All of those FMs are now on the various Roxborough towers, except for 106.1 still in Wyndmoor.

 

[gar hi]

I never knew about all that and I forgot the PSFS building had what looked like a radio tower on one side.

The old WCAU's stick in Moorestown was not far from where I grew up and I could hear their signal on my record player which didn't even have a radio receiver.

That's why I thought most Philadelphia radio transmitters were out in the suburbs.

 

[fybush]

The AMs are, for the most part. (Which is true of AMs anywhere, since they take a fair amount of land and you won't generally find that in downtown areas.) 1210 was and still is out in Moorestown, and 610 is also on the Jersey side of the river. 990, 560 and 1060 were all lined up in Whitemarsh Township; WFIL is now diplexed with 990 and the 1060 site is still there on Joshua Road to the north. 1340, 1480 and 950 are all fairly close to each other along US 1 on the western edge of Philadelphia. 1540's in Roxborough adjacent to the big TV/FM sticks.

 

[gar hi]

I also remember when channel 23 came along with their big tower out in Waterford Works.

It could be seen for miles throughout much of the Pine Barrens. If you knew where to look, you could see it almost as far as the shore.

 

[nd2023]

Interesting thread.

Being from Jersey, I've always wondered what FM reception would be like from the top of the tallest building in New York or the tallest building in Philadelphia.

Using a distance to horizon and altitude calculator, I found out that from the very top of the Freedom Tower in New York, the very top of the Comcast Center in Philly could actually be seen!

So when you figure that most FM towers are quite high and FM signals go slightly beyond line of sight to the horizon, the FM reception from the top of either of those buildings would be awesome.

I brought my portable HD radio to the top of the Empire State Building. It handles overloading well, with no intermodulation observed. But on top of Empire just a few hundred feet from the antenna, the reception was terrible. No second adjacents at all. Some stations didn't even decode in HD.

 

[Tom Wells]

I remember having some car radios with a local/dx button for FM.
With the button set to dx, it was impossible to receive most of the FM signals in downtown Chicago within a mile or two of the city center due to overloading. With the button in "local", they were all fine.
In fact, the only time it was ever useful to use the button was in the very-most-downtown area.
It probably dropped the signal about 20db, and I'm sure it attentuated more than just the 88-108 mhz.
I think there was a lot of overloading from vhf TV signals.

The hotel I stayed in the Itae-won area of Seoul, Korea was a perfect example of FM overloading.
My Sangean 803 ATS was darn near unusable on SO many frequencies due to overload from nearby FMs.

I was still living in an apartment in Chicago, but that pretty much determined for me that I wold not want to live any closer to a downtown area than 5 or 6 miles.

 

[radioman148]

I remember having some car radios with a local/dx button for FM.
With the button set to dx, it was impossible to receive most of the FM signals in downtown Chicago within a mile or two of the city center due to overloading. With the button in "local", they were all fine.
In fact, the only time it was ever useful to use the button was in the very-most-downtown area.
It probably dropped the signal about 20db, and I'm sure it attentuated more than just the 88-108 mhz.
I think there was a lot of overloading from vhf TV signals.

The hotel I stayed in the Itae-won area of Seoul, Korea was a perfect example of FM overloading.
My Sangean 803 ATS was darn near unusable on SO many frequencies due to overload from nearby FMs.

I was still living in an apartment in Chicago, but that pretty much determined for me that I wold not want to live any closer to a downtown area than 5 or 6 miles.

While reading this thread I was thinking of taking a radio up to the top of the Sears Tower next time I go, but the overload would be too great for me to hear anything interesting.

 

[ftballfan]

As I said earlier, some of the tall buildings in Grand Rapids, MI would be good as there are no radio stations on any of them and many of the big FMs are outside the city (in fact, the Big Three stations that all run grandfathered power are 20 miles south of town).

In a north-facing window, I bet one could receive WJZQ, WDEE, WLDR, WYBR, and WTCM a lot of times.

 

[satech]

While reading this thread I was thinking of taking a radio up to the top of the Sears Tower next time I go, but the overload would be too great for me to hear anything interesting.

I once stayed in a hotel about two blocks away from the Sears Tower. I was on an upper floor and could see the top of the tower looking out my window. I had a Sony SRF-A100 radio with me, and FM was unusable in "DX" mode and I could even hear intermod from the FM and analog TV stations on the AM band in wideband mode. If I switched the radio into local/narrow bandwidth I could get the local Chicago area AM and FM stations fine, but there was still too much RF energy going on to let any DX through.

 

[michigandxer]

Even in downtown Escanaba the Dxing isn't as good as when you get 7 miles west of town it is awesome out there. It is cool though as I am near the lake in Escanaba you can pick up a lot of Traverse City, Cadillac and Houghton Lake stations like they are a local station, as you get west of town you can get more Wausau Wisconsin and even as far south as Milwaukee stations on the FM dial.

 

[ftballfan]

Even in downtown Escanaba the Dxing isn't as good as when you get 7 miles west of town it is awesome out there. It is cool though as I am near the lake in Escanaba you can pick up a lot of Traverse City, Cadillac and Houghton Lake stations like they are a local station, as you get west of town you can get more Wausau Wisconsin and even as far south as Milwaukee stations on the FM dial.

Downtown Traverse City is AWFUL!! DXing is a lot better once you get south of Chums Corners or east Acme. 90.5 WPFF, 88.5 WNLI, and 99.7 WZDR are generally listenable to just outside of Traverse City. 89.7 WHND, strangely, is strong in Beulah and Honor.

In Manistee, Wausau is generally my limit westward, but 104.5 WAXX (Eau Claire) sometimes makes it in. Most stations from Marinette/Menominee, Iron Mountain, and Escanaba have been heard here, with many of the Marquettes making it in at least once. 104.3 WVCN makes it here often despite being nearly 200 miles away. 105.7 WCUP can sometimes override a much closer WAPL.

Up in Escanaba, do you ever get 94.1 WWKR, 94.9 WKZC, 97.7 WMLQ, 98.7 WLDN, or 106.3 WKLA? Even if 101.5 WMTE was running their licensed power, I still think they'd be a no-go due to 100kW WJNR in Iron Mountain.