Smart vs Cheap

[Noitall]

If Forever is cheap and scores a 9.7 with WLTS and no more expenses than the electricity to run the computer...and WUZB is smart for paying it's Morning Show 50 grand each (do the math, $100,000)and the station scores a 1.4...who exactly is the smart one?

 

[kbuzz]

> If Forever is cheap and scores a 9.7 with WLTS and no more
> expenses than the electricity to run the computer...and WUZB
> is smart for paying it's Morning Show 50 grand each (do the
> math, $100,000)and the station scores a 1.4...who exactly is
> the smart one?
>

I definitely see your point there. Didn't think it was possible but the Forever folks look like they're the second coming of Christ in this book. I would also like to add that 9th place (for three books in a row) 12+ for a 50K CHR station is horrible (WGMR). I see increases and I obviously don't see the ratings for their target demo but they can't be too good if an active rock and another CHR are still pounding them. Thoughts?

 

[Spackler]

> > If Forever is cheap and scores a 9.7 with WLTS and no more
>
> > expenses than the electricity to run the computer...and
> WUZB
> > is smart for paying it's Morning Show 50 grand each (do
> the
> > math, $100,000)and the station scores a 1.4...who exactly
> is
> > the smart one?
> >
>
> I definitely see your point there. Didn't think it was
> possible but the Forever folks look like they're the second
> coming of Christ in this book. I would also like to add
> that 9th place (for three books in a row) 12+ for a 50K CHR
> station is horrible (WGMR). I see increases and I obviously
> don't see the ratings for their target demo but they can't
> be too good if an active rock and another CHR are still
> pounding them. Thoughts?

I think the $50,000 each figure is inaccurate but your point it taken. Magnum paid over two million dollars for WUBZ and WPHB. Overpayment bigtime.

 

[mountaineer]

Pretty early in the race to be counting Magnum out; this was just their first book. And the much-storied Buzz FM booster for State College hasn't signed on, yet. Give 'em a few years to let it play out before passing judgment on that one. BTW, got a little more dope on SC book. Apparently Lite whipped Hot in Adults 18-34 and got HUGE 18-24 numbers, too. Looks like Penn State is the only campus in America where Soft AC rules! Must be all those Amish kids...


> > > If Forever is cheap and scores a 9.7 with WLTS and no
> more
> >
> > > expenses than the electricity to run the computer...and
> > WUZB
> > > is smart for paying it's Morning Show 50 grand each (do
> > the
> > > math, $100,000)and the station scores a 1.4...who
> exactly
> > is
> > > the smart one?
> > >
> >
> > I definitely see your point there. Didn't think it was
> > possible but the Forever folks look like they're the
> second
> > coming of Christ in this book. I would also like to add
> > that 9th place (for three books in a row) 12+ for a 50K
> CHR
> > station is horrible (WGMR). I see increases and I
> obviously
> > don't see the ratings for their target demo but they can't
>
> > be too good if an active rock and another CHR are still
> > pounding them. Thoughts?
>
> I think the $50,000 each figure is inaccurate but your point
> it taken. Magnum paid over two million dollars for WUBZ and
> WPHB. Overpayment bigtime.
>

 

[Spackler]

> Pretty early in the race to be counting Magnum out; this was
> just their first book. And the much-storied Buzz FM booster
> for State College hasn't signed on, yet. Give 'em a few
> years to let it play out before passing judgment on that
> one. BTW, got a little more dope on SC book. Apparently Lite
> whipped Hot in Adults 18-34 and got HUGE 18-24 numbers, too.
> Looks like Penn State is the only campus in America where
> Soft AC rules! Must be all those Amish kids...
>

I'm not usually one to cry foul on the books, but 18-34? 18-24? Something just isn't right. Do it again and I'll believe it wasn't a fluke.

>
> > > > If Forever is cheap and scores a 9.7 with WLTS and no
> > more
> > >
> > > > expenses than the electricity to run the
> computer...and
> > > WUZB
> > > > is smart for paying it's Morning Show 50 grand each
> (do
> > > the
> > > > math, $100,000)and the station scores a 1.4...who
> > exactly
> > > is
> > > > the smart one?
> > > >
> > >
> > > I definitely see your point there. Didn't think it was
> > > possible but the Forever folks look like they're the
> > second
> > > coming of Christ in this book. I would also like to add
>
> > > that 9th place (for three books in a row) 12+ for a 50K
> > CHR
> > > station is horrible (WGMR). I see increases and I
> > obviously
> > > don't see the ratings for their target demo but they
> can't
> >
> > > be too good if an active rock and another CHR are still
> > > pounding them. Thoughts?
> >
> > I think the $50,000 each figure is inaccurate but your
> point
> > it taken. Magnum paid over two million dollars for WUBZ
> and
> > WPHB. Overpayment bigtime.
> >
>

 

[mountaineer]

A Lite Fluke?

Hey, don't be surprised to see Glen adding some Elton John and Melissa Manchester tunes over at Hot. And Crowbar will be scheduling Kenny G...


> I'm not usually one to cry foul on the books, but 18-34?
> 18-24? Something just isn't right. Do it again and I'll
> believe it wasn't a fluke.

 

[shilton]

I would also like to add
> that 9th place (for three books in a row) 12+ for a 50K CHR
> station is horrible (WGMR). I see increases and I obviously
> don't see the ratings for their target demo but they can't
> be too good if an active rock and another CHR are still
> pounding them. Thoughts?

A note on this one...I am speaking personally and NOT on behalf of the station. AJ is better suited to give an official response from the station, but I will take a whack at this anyway speaking from my perspective.

WGMR has been trending upward the past several books. Yes, Hot spiked up this book as it should. They are new, they marketed hard and its not an awful station to listen to. The fact that WGMR continued its upward climb despite the launch of a new CHR in the market and the dismantling of the other shows that we are moving in a decent direction. Hot could have wiped out our entire audience and taken away all the gains we had made, but they did not. Instead, it looks like we each absorbed a little of Hot 107.9's old listener base.

Remember as well that this book was Pre-G101 (still Revolution 101). Since then, AJ, myself and the crew have worked to really hone the sound into a solid CHR and I suspect that future books will show an even further upward trend but we will have to wait and see.

In every book someone has to be first and someone has to be last. I point out we are somewhere in between and that's not such a terrible place to be either.

Hitman

 

[Iamtheradioman]

Official Comment From WGMR

The official comment is that yes we did well. We gained upward again. Who cares what place we are in as long as the numbers are going up and not down. Am I proud of our numbers. NO! I feel that there are many things that could have been done and should have been done to help out. Steve and DC definatly hurt us with the 1 share we pulled with them last book. Our mornings have never fully recovered after Bob and Tom. There will be some changes made to the jocks (including myself and Steve) and jock line up and there are a lot of great promotions coming for the fall. Don't count us out yet. Congrats to Glenn and the staff at Forever for a great book.

AJ

 

[marpediem]

Re:

I would think that the figures on Magnum's morning show salary might be a bit high... The station did sell a bit high, but it was looked at for potential, I'm sure... and the price in the market didn't drop until the sales right after that, so there was nothing to base the price on but potential. As far as AC taking over SC, the thought of seeing people packed into Crowbar waving lighters at Kenny G gives me a vision I didn't really need, lol, but thanks for sharing it. Perhaps Neil Diamond will open for him. It would be bigger than Ruben and the Jets!

On another note, congrats to every one on a job well done and another book under their belts.

 

[Newbie]

Re: Neil Diamond Rules!

That's it! Neil Diamond rules and don't any one of you try not to say you don't sing along to "Sweet Caroline" when you go to see Velveeta play at Crowbar You know you do...

> I would think that the figures on Magnum's morning show
> salary might be a bit high... The station did sell a bit
> high, but it was looked at for potential, I'm sure... and
> the price in the market didn't drop until the sales right
> after that, so there was nothing to base the price on but
> potential. As far as AC taking over SC, the thought of
> seeing people packed into Crowbar waving lighters at Kenny G
> gives me a vision I didn't really need, lol, but thanks for
> sharing it. Perhaps Neil Diamond will open for him. It would
> be bigger than Ruben and the Jets!
>
> On another note, congrats to every one on a job well done
> and another book under their belts.
>

 

[marpediem]

Re: Neil Diamond Rules!

I never said Neil wasn't the man, lol. but I've never seen Velveeta play before anywhere. I did enjoy the Dexter Freebish cover of Sweet Caroline at Crowbar last year, though. And it's a favorite request in the mobile DJ end still after all these years... and I don't sing... not even in the shower, lol


> That's it! Neil Diamond rules and don't any one of you try
> not to say you don't sing along to "Sweet Caroline" when you
> go to see Velveeta play at Crowbar You know you do...
>
> > I would think that the figures on Magnum's morning show
> > salary might be a bit high... The station did sell a bit
> > high, but it was looked at for potential, I'm sure... and
> > the price in the market didn't drop until the sales right
> > after that, so there was nothing to base the price on but
> > potential. As far as AC taking over SC, the thought of
> > seeing people packed into Crowbar waving lighters at Kenny
> G
> > gives me a vision I didn't really need, lol, but thanks
> for
> > sharing it. Perhaps Neil Diamond will open for him. It
> would
> > be bigger than Ruben and the Jets!
> >
> > On another note, congrats to every one on a job well done
> > and another book under their belts.
> >
>
<P ID="edit"><FONT class="small">Edited by marpediem on 07/28/05 04:04 AM.</FONT></P>

 

[Iamtheradioman]

You know you are missing one big point here. PSU Students aren't surveyed unless there permenant address is in State College. So PSU has nothing to do with it.

 

[mountaineer]

Understanding the market

Well, three-fourths (75%) of PSU's students--roughly 30,000 of the 40,000+ students--live off-campus. Two-thirds of all State College borough residents are Penn State students. This ain't Altoona.

BTW, your station increased by 1% (that's one percent) in its core 18-34 demo. But PSU has nothing to do with it, right? One thing for sure: if you keep growing your core audience at 1% a book, it's gonna take a long time. Maybe PSU students could be important, after all. Worth thinking about...

> You know you are missing one big point here. PSU Students
> aren't surveyed unless there permenant address is in State
> College. So PSU has nothing to do with it.
>

 

[kbuzz]

Re: Understanding the market

> Well, three-fourths (75%) of PSU's students--roughly 30,000
> of the 40,000+ students--live off-campus. Two-thirds of all
> State College borough residents are Penn State students.
> This ain't Altoona.
>
> BTW, your station increased by 1% (that's one percent) in
> its core 18-34 demo. But PSU has nothing to do with it,
> right? One thing for sure: if you keep growing your core
> audience at 1% a book, it's gonna take a long time. Maybe
> PSU students could be important, after all. Worth thinking
> about...
>
> > You know you are missing one big point here. PSU Students
> > aren't surveyed unless there permenant address is in State
>
> > College. So PSU has nothing to do with it.
> >
>
That's basically what I was going to say but then I thought I was missing something. How much housing does PSU have for students? 15%-25% I would think. If your living in an apartment, receiving mail and bills at that address, doesn't that make you a resident that happens to attend to PSU?

 

[Iamtheradioman]

Re: Understanding the market

Permnant address guys, I had an adress in Lock Haven and Bellefonte, Bellefonte was my permnant address, but I recived mail in Lock Haven.

 

[mountaineer]

Re: Understanding the market

It's not that we don't understand the absence of Arbitron diaries in "group housing," or the difference between temporary addresses and permanent addresses. But you seem to be under the impression that the huge bulge in Centre County's population curve in the 18-24/18-34 cells, and the corresponding huge bulge in the Arbitron listening profile for the market, isn't caused by Penn State students. You may just have to trust us on this: in markets without major universities, you don't have this. (And, if you do nothing but apply a little common sense, it'll occur to you that all 42,000 PSU students aren't living in dorms, frats or "group homes." If you have a normal residential phone number, you're in Arbitron's database of potential diary keepers. Betcha a dollar most of the 42,000 fall into that category).

Or suit yourself and pretend they don't count.


> Permnant address guys, I had an adress in Lock Haven and
> Bellefonte, Bellefonte was my permnant address, but I
> recived mail in Lock Haven.
>

 

[shilton]

Re: Understanding the market

> It's not that we don't understand the absence of Arbitron
> diaries in "group housing," or the difference between
> temporary addresses and permanent addresses. But you seem to
> be under the impression that the huge bulge in Centre
> County's population curve in the 18-24/18-34 cells, and the
> corresponding huge bulge in the Arbitron listening profile
> for the market, isn't caused by Penn State students. You
> may just have to trust us on this: in markets without major
> universities, you don't have this. (And, if you do nothing
> but apply a little common sense, it'll occur to you that all
> 42,000 PSU students aren't living in dorms, frats or "group
> homes." If you have a normal residential phone number,
> you're in Arbitron's database of potential diary keepers.
> Betcha a dollar most of the 42,000 fall into that category).
>
>
> Or suit yourself and pretend they don't count.
>
>
> > Permnant address guys, I had an adress in Lock Haven and
> > Bellefonte, Bellefonte was my permnant address, but I
> > recived mail in Lock Haven.
> >
>
I point out one thing on this issue. When I was at the old B103 years ago, we used to note the same problems with students. Trouble is even if the books got into the hands of a student which is rare, they just don't fill the damn things out. They take the $1.00 and toss the thing in the trash.

Many books are not filled out properly by the way. I remember when John Fredrickson flew to Arbitron to look at the books and he found all kinds of discrepancies he called into question. People just don't carry that little book with them everywhere they go. They fill it out at the end of the week, or whatever and try to do a LOT of it from memory, if that. Some people just guess.

The book is a useful tool, but it certainly is not perfect. It is flawed in many ways. Take 3-WZ for instance. I for one refuse to believe that half their audience just up and went to Lite all of a sudden. The music mix is too different and I can tell you that people are not Following Delillah in droves man...that just does not happen. She went off the air at 3-WZ and no one flinched.

State College's book as is the case in many SMALL markets is especially sensitive because one person counts for SOOOO many. The sampling size is just too small.

Still as I pointed out before, we did continue to climb, even if not by much while others fell by far more. I will take an increase over a decrease anyday.

Hitman

 

[babeontheair]

From the Valley to the Mountain, with respect.

About ten years ago I sat in on an Arbitron small market advisory meeting in which I asked about the students at Penn State and other college towns. Diaries do not go to students, they don’t they are NOT county residents; they don’t have a mailing/ billing address here. Arbitron can’t claim the old barracks and temporary housing deal as you mentioned months ago. Mailers go out to PERMINANT addressees not addresses in the market and are designed to target the people who are residents not “transients” my issue is that for four to eight years those “transients” are here not at home.

No books to the dorms, no books to the apartments. However you can rest assured that a rural female that is the type who clips coupons and will take time to do a survey will react in a certain way. If she is told that she will get cash for each diary filled out for that household she will fill out one for her, one for dad, one for each kid and she might not be very accurate. We could shot holes all day in the survey after all look at the multiples already and the sample size has to be tiny for the last three to have the same exact share.

As for the points that your buddy at Arbitron said about Ipods I posted about those trends a few weeks ago, it showed that its about 13% of the total population have one and it does not replace radio. In the younger demo its share is surprisingly smaller too. I think you have made great points about why what stations did what they did here and how they are rated and perceived. From what you write you are a salty dog in the business, I just fought this fight first hand with Arbitron in person at the round table, and they told me that students were no counted because well, they “don’t count”. -TS



> It's not that we don't understand the absence of Arbitron
> diaries in "group housing," or the difference between
> temporary addresses and permanent addresses. But you seem to
> be under the impression that the huge bulge in Centre
> County's population curve in the 18-24/18-34 cells, and the
> corresponding huge bulge in the Arbitron listening profile
> for the market, isn't caused by Penn State students. You
> may just have to trust us on this: in markets without major
> universities, you don't have this. (And, if you do nothing
> but apply a little common sense, it'll occur to you that all
> 42,000 PSU students aren't living in dorms, frats or "group
> homes." If you have a normal residential phone number,
> you're in Arbitron's database of potential diary keepers.
> Betcha a dollar most of the 42,000 fall into that category).
>
>
> Or suit yourself and pretend they don't count.
>
>
> > Permnant address guys, I had an adress in Lock Haven and
> > Bellefonte, Bellefonte was my permnant address, but I
> > recived mail in Lock Haven.
> >
>

 

[killawatt]

Re: Understanding the market

"They take the $1.00 and toss the thing in the trash." this may be true...then they call Mommy and Daddy and ask for another $500 for gas in the BMW. I don't think you guys are gonna figure this out any time soon considering you can ask ten different Arbitron reps the same question and get 10 different answers...and like I said before - it doesn't matter which way your're trending or of you're #1 ...if you don't have more dollars coming in than going out. This isn't the money Mecca you all think it is.



> > It's not that we don't understand the absence of Arbitron
> > diaries in "group housing," or the difference between
> > temporary addresses and permanent addresses. But you seem
> to
> > be under the impression that the huge bulge in Centre
> > County's population curve in the 18-24/18-34 cells, and
> the
> > corresponding huge bulge in the Arbitron listening profile
>
> > for the market, isn't caused by Penn State students. You
> > may just have to trust us on this: in markets without
> major
> > universities, you don't have this. (And, if you do nothing
>
> > but apply a little common sense, it'll occur to you that
> all
> > 42,000 PSU students aren't living in dorms, frats or
> "group
> > homes." If you have a normal residential phone number,
> > you're in Arbitron's database of potential diary keepers.
> > Betcha a dollar most of the 42,000 fall into that
> category).
> >
> >
> > Or suit yourself and pretend they don't count.
> >
> >
> > > Permnant address guys, I had an adress in Lock Haven and
>
> > > Bellefonte, Bellefonte was my permnant address, but I
> > > recived mail in Lock Haven.
> > >
> >
> I point out one thing on this issue. When I was at the old
> B103 years ago, we used to note the same problems with
> students. Trouble is even if the books got into the hands
> of a student which is rare, they just don't fill the damn
> things out. They take the $1.00 and toss the thing in the
> trash.
>
> Many books are not filled out properly by the way. I
> remember when John Fredrickson flew to Arbitron to look at
> the books and he found all kinds of discrepancies he called
> into question. People just don't carry that little book
> with them everywhere they go. They fill it out at the end
> of the week, or whatever and try to do a LOT of it from
> memory, if that. Some people just guess.
>
> The book is a useful tool, but it certainly is not perfect.
> It is flawed in many ways. Take 3-WZ for instance. I for
> one refuse to believe that half their audience just up and
> went to Lite all of a sudden. The music mix is too
> different and I can tell you that people are not Following
> Delillah in droves man...that just does not happen. She
> went off the air at 3-WZ and no one flinched.
>
> State College's book as is the case in many SMALL markets is
> especially sensitive because one person counts for SOOOO
> many. The sampling size is just too small.
>
> Still as I pointed out before, we did continue to climb,
> even if not by much while others fell by far more. I will
> take an increase over a decrease anyday.
>
> Hitman
>

 

[babeontheair]

Re: Understanding the market

Agreed! Live by the book, and all. Its a new world order here in SC now and it will be a challenge for all of us to understand it. I hade to get a job to put gas in the 74 comet I was not allowed to take to college. Its rust stains matched the roof color! Best car I ever had...



> "They take the $1.00 and toss the thing in the trash." this
> may be true...then they call Mommy and Daddy and ask for
> another $500 for gas in the BMW. I don't think you guys are
> gonna figure this out any time soon considering you can ask
> ten different Arbitron reps the same question and get 10
> different answers...and like I said before - it doesn't
> matter which way your're trending or of you're #1 ...if you
> don't have more dollars coming in than going out. This
> isn't the money Mecca you all think it is.
>
>
>
> > > It's not that we don't understand the absence of
> Arbitron
> > > diaries in "group housing," or the difference between
> > > temporary addresses and permanent addresses. But you
> seem
> > to
> > > be under the impression that the huge bulge in Centre
> > > County's population curve in the 18-24/18-34 cells, and
> > the
> > > corresponding huge bulge in the Arbitron listening
> profile
> >
> > > for the market, isn't caused by Penn State students.
> You
> > > may just have to trust us on this: in markets without
> > major
> > > universities, you don't have this. (And, if you do
> nothing
> >
> > > but apply a little common sense, it'll occur to you that
>
> > all
> > > 42,000 PSU students aren't living in dorms, frats or
> > "group
> > > homes." If you have a normal residential phone number,
> > > you're in Arbitron's database of potential diary
> keepers.
> > > Betcha a dollar most of the 42,000 fall into that
> > category).
> > >
> > >
> > > Or suit yourself and pretend they don't count.
> > >
> > >
> > > > Permnant address guys, I had an adress in Lock Haven
> and
> >
> > > > Bellefonte, Bellefonte was my permnant address, but I
> > > > recived mail in Lock Haven.
> > > >
> > >
> > I point out one thing on this issue. When I was at the
> old
> > B103 years ago, we used to note the same problems with
> > students. Trouble is even if the books got into the hands
>
> > of a student which is rare, they just don't fill the damn
> > things out. They take the $1.00 and toss the thing in the
>
> > trash.
> >
> > Many books are not filled out properly by the way. I
> > remember when John Fredrickson flew to Arbitron to look at
>
> > the books and he found all kinds of discrepancies he
> called
> > into question. People just don't carry that little book
> > with them everywhere they go. They fill it out at the end
>
> > of the week, or whatever and try to do a LOT of it from
> > memory, if that. Some people just guess.
> >
> > The book is a useful tool, but it certainly is not
> perfect.
> > It is flawed in many ways. Take 3-WZ for instance. I for
>
> > one refuse to believe that half their audience just up and
>
> > went to Lite all of a sudden. The music mix is too
> > different and I can tell you that people are not Following
>
> > Delillah in droves man...that just does not happen. She
> > went off the air at 3-WZ and no one flinched.
> >
> > State College's book as is the case in many SMALL markets
> is
> > especially sensitive because one person counts for SOOOO
> > many. The sampling size is just too small.
> >
> > Still as I pointed out before, we did continue to climb,
> > even if not by much while others fell by far more. I will
>
> > take an increase over a decrease anyday.
> >
> > Hitman
> >
>