Snow seems to be good for MW dx

[KyDXIn]

I've been wondering about the difference between propagation over land as opposed to water as far as what the difference is, if any, between plain water and salt water. I always used to assume it was just any large body of water that would increase it but it seems that's not the case. Also, there don't seem to be DXing reports regarding the Great Lakes. Compare the signal coverage of two 50kw non-directional stations near water - WFAN and WLS. Notice the difference in land and water coverage for WFAN. http://www.radio-locator.com/cgi-bin/pat?call=WFAN&service=AM&status=L&hours=U And now for WLS, where there's no difference at all. http://www.radio-locator.com/cgi-bin/pat?call=WLS&service=AM&status=L&hours=U

Yesterday at 11 am I left Bloomington, IN and listened to WLS until I got to Campbellsburg, IN when WFIA began to interfer with its signal.

 

[mimo]

Mimo--

Is WBBM the only Chicago 50K that ever comes in during the day during winter in Ottawa or even Toronto?

I'd say yes. In Toronto's case, WSCR, and WMVP are first adjacent to local 50'000 watt signals on 680 and 1010, so they're a wash at any time of day. WLS is next to CHML, a 50'000 watter from nearby Hamilton, I've never heard it in the day while I was there, but it does come in at night very well. Toronto is much closer to Chicago than Ottawa, so you'd figure WGN would come in 24 hours a day during the winter, but again, it's also first adjacent to CJRN 710 in Niagara Falls, while quite a distance from Toronto, the signal is city grade quality. WGN only makes it in during the night time in Toronto.

With the exception of 1160, no stations in Ottawa are first adjacents to the Chicago flamethrowers, so they're here without any interference. Our local 1150 is supposed to complete it's transition to FM very so0n, and was actually supposed to be off the air over a year ago, but the new FM signal is just crap and can't even cover more than the downtown core.

 

[radioman148]

OK, thanks!

 

[BRNout]

I got WBBM during the middle of the day in December between Ottawa and Pembroke. It didn't fade, so it wasn't skywave. WGN and WSCR were much weaker and there was no sign of WLS or WMVP - nor of any U.S. east coast AMs. Only a station from Watertown, NY (can't recall the calls right now) and it was weak.

WJR comes in really well all along the shores of Lake Erie - essentially like a local in Cleveland and Erie and still receivable around Buffalo. Very impressive. So, I'd have to disagree with the corollary that freshwater ground conductivity isn't particularly good. It may not be as good as salt water, but it is better than most forms of soil. Also snow cover does help an AM signal along under many conditions.

This effect has been evident all winter long around metro Chicago; Milwaukee AM signals on 620, 930 and 1130 have an improved signal range with snow cover versus their respective ranges without it. For example, WISN was perfectly listenable this morning all the way to Aurora - and has been all winter. Basically, I can listen to it in the car for an extra 20 miles with snow on the ground than without it. Perhaps the level of "enhancement" depends on how good the ground conductivity is in the underlying soils. But it's definitely helpful in the midwest.

 

[charlestondxman]

Where I live, in coastal SC, there is not much snow, but even with the colder weather, you can tell stations go farther than during the summer. Many days, WAGL 1560 from Lancaster (about 150 miles) stays in all day, with little fading. I can also get several AMs from outside my area (60, 70, 80 miles), much better than when I can get them in the summer.

WBT from Charlotte stays in all day on any average radio down here (even though about 175 miles away). Amazingly, that is the farthest station I can get on my radio from land. Via water path, you can get stations from 300, 400, 500 miles away here (even 610 in Miami daytime).

WSB is only barely perceptible on the coldest winter days (about 261 miles), while Chicago stations can be almost clear at 261 miles.

1530 from Cincy and WSM can also be heard sometimes here during middays, but only in the rural areas, away from the city noise (with long fades).

 

[radioman148]

Anyone been to Alaska during the winter?
I imagine the cold, snow cover, and very short days must be great for DX.
If you're in mostly darkness you probably get close to 24 hour skywave.
Anybody experienced this?

 

[cyberdad]

Cyberdad, I thought you did hear WBBM in Ottawa a year ago during the daytime in the winter, unless I'm mistaking that for a trip to the Ottawa Valley (west of Ottawa on the 417). WBBM DOES come in during the day in December and parts of January in Ottawa. I've also heard them in Toronto during winter days.

Now that you mention it, I do recall hearing daytime 'BBM in Ottawa last winter. Hunt Club Road, as I remember (which is a few miles south of downtown) I've also snagged it in and around Toronto a few times in winter during the day, so I know its definitely do-able. Usually, however, on the 401 going east from Detroit-Windsor, its gone by the time I get to London.

I may be in both Toronto and Ottawa the week after next. Usually I take highway 7 when I make that run...a great road for DX, given that it goes through some beautiful, but empty, territory. The way the AM band has been active 24/7 lately, I'll be interested to see what happens this time if I indeed make the trip.

Outside chance I may be taking 60 in from Huntsville. (I have a major customer in Midland). Interesting DX on that road also. I'm astonished by the number of FM signals....including U.S....that make it into Algonquin park.

 

[Mr_Winston-Salem]

I can remember one time in Winter 1997, I listened to WMVP and other Chicago AMs on a car radio in Winston-Salem in the middle of the day. I can also remember listening to Washington D. C. AMs during the day in Winston-Salem.

 

[ddsparxx]

Just for curiosity, Mr. Winston-Salem, what DC AMs did you hear in Winston-Salem?

I once heard 1500 (with a car radio), when it was WTOP, at 10:30 am near Greenville, NC during the summer.

 

[gar hi]

If you're getting Chicago AMs in North Carolina during the middle of the day, it would have to be the result of a rare daytime skywave.

 

[Mr_Winston-Salem]

I do remember 1120 From D.C. was one. This was 11 years ago. The Chicago AMs were loud and clear in the middle of the day. It was like being in Chicago and I could see the mountains in Winston-Salem. Winston-Salem is sandwiched perfectly between several markets. Roanoke to the north, Fayetteville to the southeast, Raleigh to the east and Charlotte to the south. Both the AM and FM bands are filled during the day. If you like to change stations for your favorite song on FM, it was a great place to live. If you like DXing something more than 50-90 miles from your receiver, it required additional work.

 

[Mid West Clubber]

I heard CINCINATTI's WLW 700 about 3 hrs west of Kansas City in the daytime around Christmas time, about 2 pm, and yes there was snow on the ground. Ive aslo picked up NYC WCBS and WABC here in Indiana around that same time of year durng the day about 4 pm,, but only about 2 hrs before winter sunset here.

 

[vibe]

It was COLD driving up I-95 in the middle of S.C. on Thurs. About 4 pm or 1.5-2 hrs before local sunset I got
far away stuff like 740 Toronto, 1100 Cleve, and 1120 St Louis (which really surprised me.) NYC blowtorches were quite strong but no big deal. Also got a lot of smaller stations from pretty away which I didn't log but remember one being from the Tri Cities area of Tennessee.
Premature skywave I guess..

 

[Mid West Clubber]

Im often able to get stations like WWL New orleans and WSB Atlanta in Indiana around as early as 4 PM in Winter in indiana.. Our ground covergage, combined with the Swampy Ground conductivity of WWL makes it an easy late afternoon catch in indiana,, Doesnt happen everyday, but sometimes it booms in, and sometimes barely audible, but sometimes I cant hear WSB WWL and the New York stations till like 8 pm,, but sometimes I can get them as early as 3 or 4 pm,,, but during the day the signals are much weaker, but they dont fade in and out, so I wonder if it is Extended Ground wave. But despite being so close to 700 WLW and 1530 Cinci, WLS Chicago, WHAS Louisville I often cant seem to get them here at night or day, and they are only about 100 miles away... I get 670 WSCR, 720 WGN, and 780 WBBM the easiest of the Chicago stations during the day, sometimes AM 560 during the day only for some reason, but its weak, and sometimes 1000 in Chicago,, I forget the calls, used to be WLUP... sometimes they get stomped out by other stations. Ive also had a religious bible blaster Knock out WGN just 120 miles south of Chicago, and just about a month ago WLS went away and I was getting Spanish music on 890 for at least an hour... Cant speak spanish, so I couldnt ID it,, any IDs what the 720 Religious, and 890 spanish stations where, or their location???

 

[jd]

any IDs what the 720 Religious, and 890 spanish stations where, or their location???

720 could be WWII Shiremanstown/Harrrisburg PA (2,000 watts ND daytime only) and a likely suspect on 890 would be KVOZ Del Mar Hills/Laredo TX (10,000 watts ND day, 1000 directional night).

 

[cyberdad]

Cyberdad, I thought you did hear WBBM in Ottawa a year ago during the daytime in the winter, unless I'm mistaking that for a trip to the Ottawa Valley (west of Ottawa on the 417). WBBM DOES come in during the day in December and parts of January in Ottawa. I've also heard them in Toronto during winter days.

I was in Ottawa earlier this week and tried for 'BBM in the rental car at about 11am Wednesday out by the Eagleson/March Road exit off the 417. There was definitely some faint stuff on 780, it sounded like talk, but it was unidentifiable. Similar results when I looked for the other Chicago blowtorches. There was something there on all four channels....especially 890. But all very faint and there was nothing I could identify.

On the other hand, the New York big sticks were all present, especially WBBR and WQEW. WBZ also clearly audible, as was WBAL, but no WTIC. Presume WPHT would have been there as well, but too much splatter from the local 1200. Finally, WWKB was the strongest of all...sounding almost like a local.

BTW, Mimo, there are two sticks (or more correctly arrays) off to the right when coming into town on the 416 from the south. Which is which? Are either of them diplexing?

 

[mimo]

Cyberdad, I thought you did hear WBBM in Ottawa a year ago during the daytime in the winter, unless I'm mistaking that for a trip to the Ottawa Valley (west of Ottawa on the 417). WBBM DOES come in during the day in December and parts of January in Ottawa. I've also heard them in Toronto during winter days.

I was in Ottawa earlier this week and tried for 'BBM in the rental car at about 11am Wednesday out by the Eagleson/March Road exit off the 417. There was definitely some faint stuff on 780, it sounded like talk, but it was unidentifiable. Similar results when I looked for the other Chicago blowtorches. There was something there on all four channels....especially 890. But all very faint and there was nothing I could identify.

On the other hand, the New York big sticks were all present, especially WBBR and WQEW. WBZ also clearly audible, as was WBAL, but no WTIC. Presume WPHT would have been there as well, but too much splatter from the local 1200. Finally, WWKB was the strongest of all...sounding almost like a local.

BTW, Mimo, there are two sticks (or more correctly arrays) off to the right when coming into town on the 416 from the south. Which is which? Are either of them diplexing?

Scott Fybush can probably answer better than I can. I think they belong to either CFRA and CFGO, but they could be CJRC's or CIWW. I may be wrong.

 

[Tom Wells]

Re: Snow, but not only

The best thing about MW for dxers and MW generally is this very aspect.

I can recall many instances of freak daytime reception. Listened to Garry Meier and Roe Conn on WLS years ago in my rental car like a local just outside Washington DC Dulles airport for an hour or more, at 4 PM in September.

WRLL? 1690 Berwyn Ill in Raleigh/Durham weak, but no fades, 8 AM in April 2005.

These months are at the "middle angles" of solar radiation compared to June or December.

But something in winter is different, I think it has to do with the angle of incidence of incoming solar ionization, and ionospheric
current paths "up" and "down", creating curved ducting effects which AM can "surf" on.
And just like real surf, it's unpredictable where and how it will break.
Depends on where the energy came from, how much energy there was, if it was reflected, the angle it's coming at you AND the shore,
how long a fetch it had, what the wind is like, (an outbound wind holds the waves up makes for a beautiful curl), what the sand bars are like at the place you are on beach, how broad the beach is due to tides.. and on and on..
That's why surfers just stare at the water like dxers stare at the radio.

All these water analogies and more apply in MW wave signal behavior.

Many years of playing with my pt 15 AM antenna placement and the results in my coverage have been a lot of fun and education.
100 mw gives you a real challenge, and you see all the same effects and attenuation in ground wave as big stations do, within your
range, as conditions permit. The neighborhood here is densely packed brick and steel, so my signal is gone in a few blocks.
I see no practical differences in coveage seasonally, but do, day-by-day, but not always by conductivity changes from rain, for instance.

I have noticed a ring outside reception of my pt 15, when carrier from it MUST be present, as I notice this ring has enhanced
reception of 1620 in Omaha, before or at sunset, in what is basically synchronous AM detection as in done inside communications receivers, it's just the mixing is being done "outside".
There is no reason the same would not occur with any signals on MW.

 

[cyberdad]

Scott Fybush can probably answer better than I can. I think they belong to either CFRA and CFGO, but they could be CJRC's or CIWW. I may be wrong.

I thought you might know offhand. I could always look it up on the google map feature of Radio Locator, or Scott could chime in. Based on the overloads I get when I drive by there, I think CFRA is definitely one of them and CIWW might be the other. CFGO also overloads, but not quite to the extent of CFRA.

And Tom, your post would explain "definitely" midday WBBM in Ottawa in December, but "maybe/maybe not" in February a couple of days ago. Also, I've caught WRLL around 9am during wintertime (at 10kw) in Kansas City, Memphis, and Toronto. All of which would be roughly the same distance from their stick. A fairly decent signal as I recall in each place.