Something Big May Happen

[dhoule]

I think a couple of other people mentioned this or alluded to it. I think Clear Channel will attempt to move the allocation and the transmitter of WWBB, 101.5, closer to Boston. Something like Attleboro-Boston or Canton-Boston. They would then have another signal-rich station in Boston to play with. Then, they would either silence 101.7 or continue with some small niche format. Just a thought.

 

[raccoonradio]

Same thing is being speculated on Facebook, boston-radio-interest etc. 101.7, 101.5 etc.
have various restrictions that would have to be dealt with.
btw in the orig. Herald article it was quoted (maybe Mindich has said it) that they didn't
have plans to sell WFNX but in came Clear Channel with the offer--they thought, maybe
we should sell it, times are tough etc. But Mark S. tweets that supp. WFNX has been on
the block for awhile.

Maybe Ent. made an offer. Greater couldn't...at limit of 5 FMs etc
The 92.1 in NH has been on the block for awhile and it's said it would go silent if they
can't find a buyer. Said to reach Manchester, Nashua--well, it does, kinda, but it's more to the
SW, not as populous an area.
Update, via another thread: 92.1 being sold but not to CC)
http://www.nashuatelegraph.com/business/961037-192/wfnx-fm-sold-to-clear-channel-so-what.html

 

[raccoonradio]

Well that didn't last long... acc to Twitter/Fybush, WDER 1320 will be put on 92.1 (Bill
Blount buying)

 

[reelyreal]

Yeah, it can't happen. You can't delete a station from the table of allotments, and there's nowhere to move WFNX to get it out of the way of WWBB, that's before you get into the hairy situation of first- and second-adjacents. The New England broadcast landscape is outrageously intricate, and moves like that just aren't possible.

 

[dhoule]

What about attempting to move WWBB to a few towns south of Providence and WFNX a little bit north of Lynn??? Then, apply to increase 101.7 in power

 

[reelyreal]

What about attempting to move WWBB to a few towns south of Providence and WFNX a little bit north of Lynn??? Then, apply to increase 101.7 in power

It's possible... WWBB could increase it's directional pattern to give more room for WFNX. The only big tower site that I can think of that's significantly south of the current Pine St. Rehoboth, MA site is the old WLNE tower in Tiverton, RI.

 

[WNTIRadio]

Moving WFNX north of Lynn won't help CC at all! It's better to have 1.7kW (albeit directional) in the middle of the city than 6kW 15 miles to the north.

It was originally north of the city and was moved in. The expense and higher rent wouldn't have been spent if it wasn't worth it signal wise.

 

[wcozBoston]

Within the last several years ago out in the Albany market, WNYQ, (now WQSH), 105.7, licensed to Queensbury, N.Y. in the Glens Falls, N.Y. market was able to move to Malta in the Albany market. As part of that move, an arrangement was worked out to simultaneously move WBEC in Pittsfield, MA, at that time operated at 105.5. At the end of all of the changes, 105.5 moved to significantly east to Easthampton, MA, (now WWEI) and WNYQ become an Albany station on 105.7. WBEC's call letters moved to 95.9, another Pittsfield signal. So how was that technical move possible but a move of WWBB to the Boston market is not? Couldn't Clear Channel request a change to the Boston and Providence table of Allocations and turn off 101.7 at the same time as moving 101.5 to the Boston market just like was done in Pittsfield and Albany? Was the Albany and Pittsfield table of allocations changed to accommodate WNYQ and WWEI? How did those stations complete their moves?

 

[necrat123]

Does not matter.

101.5 would have the same issue 101.7 has. IF Spacing to WBUR is too short. Moving 101.5 into Boston, you still have to worry about that , which is going to limit quite a bit. Spacing between two Bs for 20kM, and a B1 to a B is 17kM.

Now if Clear Channel could shuffle the entire college spectrum around and try to get WBUR moved up a notch to 91.1, figure out how to move WSHL , WDJM, , WXPL, then maybe there could be something.

 

[reelyreal]

Within the last several years ago out in the Albany market, WNYQ, (now WQSH), 105.7, licensed to Queensbury, N.Y. in the Glens Falls, N.Y. market was able to move to Malta in the Albany market. As part of that move, an arrangement was worked out to simultaneously move WBEC in Pittsfield, MA, at that time operated at 105.5. At the end of all of the changes, 105.5 moved to significantly east to Easthampton, MA, (now WWEI) and WNYQ become an Albany station on 105.7. WBEC's call letters moved to 95.9, another Pittsfield signal. So how was that technical move possible but a move of WWBB to the Boston market is not? Couldn't Clear Channel request a change to the Boston and Providence table of Allocations and turn off 101.7 at the same time as moving 101.5 to the Boston market just like was done in Pittsfield and Albany? Was the Albany and Pittsfield table of allocations changed to accommodate WNYQ and WWEI? How did those stations complete their moves?

A station can not, under any circumstances, be deleted from the FM table of allotments. Why would you move WFNX away from the city and decrease its value to try to move WWBB closer to Boston when you could just let WWBB continue to be a cash cow in Providence and possibly tighten its directional signal to make a little more from for WFNX?

Then, you'd run into short spacing issues with WGIR-FM and WCIB.

The WNYQ/WBEC-FM move was in a less crowded RF environment with lower powered stations (now-WWEI is an A, and WNYQ was an A and upgraded to B1.) Some moves are possible, but moving from Boston to Providence is not only impossible, it's dumb.

It's just dumb speculation, not based on any sense of reality.

 

[fybush]

Within the last several years ago out in the Albany market, WNYQ, (now WQSH), 105.7, licensed to Queensbury, N.Y. in the Glens Falls, N.Y. market was able to move to Malta in the Albany market. As part of that move, an arrangement was worked out to simultaneously move WBEC in Pittsfield, MA, at that time operated at 105.5. At the end of all of the changes, 105.5 moved to significantly east to Easthampton, MA, (now WWEI) and WNYQ become an Albany station on 105.7. WBEC's call letters moved to 95.9, another Pittsfield signal. So how was that technical move possible but a move of WWBB to the Boston market is not? Couldn't Clear Channel request a change to the Boston and Providence table of Allocations and turn off 101.7 at the same time as moving 101.5 to the Boston market just like was done in Pittsfield and Albany? Was the Albany and Pittsfield table of allocations changed to accommodate WNYQ and WWEI? How did those stations complete their moves?

If you follow the daisy-chain of moves in that case, no allocations were eliminated. 105.7A Queensbury became 105.7B1 Malta. 105.5A Pittsfield became 105.5A Easthampton. You can't just eliminate an allocation outright, though; if you could, it would indeed be possible to at least think about killing the WFNX allocation and moving WWBB north, though other factors might still make that difficult.

Each of those moves resulted in a "preferential distribution of service": Malta and Easthampton each ended up with "first local service" (on paper, at least), while Queensbury and Pittsfield continued to receive local service from other stations (WCQL 95.9 Glens Falls had its city of license changed to Queensbury to preserve "first local service" there.) It's theoretically possible to come up with new "first local service" that could be provided by moving WFNX or WWBB, and there is existing local service in Lynn and Providence that would allow both stations to move.

Each move created an increase in population receiving service, since both WNYQ/WQSH and WBEC-FM/WVEI-FM/WWEI ended up covering much more densely populated areas than they had originally. It's certainly possible (likely, even) that a technical upgrade to WFNX could significantly increase the population served.

Each move complied with the FCC's mileage spacing standards as set out in sections 73.207 and 73.215 of the rules - and that's the real hitch standing in the way of a WWBB/WFNX move. The FM dial in western Massachusetts and eastern New York is far less congested than it is along the coast, and there was just enough room in both the Albany and Springfield areas to squeeze in those new signals. (In particular, there was just enough space going south to wedge 105.7 in against signals on 105.5 in Patterson/Danbury and 105.9 in Hartford, and just enough space going east to wedge 105.5 into Springfield against 105.7 in Framingham/Boston and 105.5 in Groton and 105.1 in Providence and 105.9 in Hartford.)

There is no such wiggle room to move 101.5 or 101.7. They are already short-spaced to each other, which is why WFNX uses a directional antenna. And even if the two stations could move with respect to each other, they're tightly pinned in place by a whole web of other signals on the very crowded dial - start trying to move WFNX and you bump up against not only WWBB but also WGIR-FM in Manchester on 101.1 and WCIB in Falmouth on 101.9, not to mention that IF-spacing issue to WBUR that's the real killer to any upgrade.

And when you start trying to shift other signals around to make room, it just gets worse: you can't move WCIB without affecting 102.3 in Truro and 101.1 in Mashpee, and you can't move 102.3 in Truro without bumping up against 102.9 in Hyannis, and you can't move 101.1 in Mashpee without bumping up against WWBB and WZLX, and the daisy-chain just keeps on going.

There are a tiny handful of allocations gurus who fully understand how to make this system work, and I've been fortunate enough to learn from some of them. It's mind-breaking stuff, sometimes.

 

[wcozBoston]

I don't believe that it was "just dumb speculation, not based on any sense of reality." I posed the question after knowing about the WNYQ move and wanted to get a response, certainly Scott Fybush answered it considerably more elegantly posing good arguments verses stating that it was simply dumb. I would hate to work with "reelyreal"; anyone who disagreed would be considered "really dumb".

 

[reelyreal]

I don't believe that it was "just dumb speculation, not based on any sense of reality." I posed the question after knowing about the WNYQ move and wanted to get a response, certainly Scott Fybush answered it considerably more elegantly posing good arguments verses stating that it was simply dumb. I would hate to work with "reelyreal"; anyone who disagreed would be considered "really dumb".

My point was that there was no basis of the speculation, no report, no rumor, no suggestion from any reliable source for the "WWBB to Boston" idea that's popped up on this board in a few places. I'm sorry if you took offense, it's just such an off-the-wall out of left field crazy idea that just wouldn't work.

 

[fybush]

My point was that there was no basis of the speculation, no report, no rumor, no suggestion from any reliable source for the "WWBB to Boston" idea that's popped up on this board in a few places. I'm sorry if you took offense, it's just such an off-the-wall out of left field crazy idea that just wouldn't work.

Ever worked with the Clear Channel engineering team in Cincinnati and Tulsa? From the Jacor days until now (well, almost until now), every acquisition they've made has been carefully evaluated for signal upgrade potential long before any deal is signed, and just about anything that they've bought that's looked like a dog, signal-wise, has turned out to be in line for improvement. (WKOX 1200, anyone?)

There was no reason, then, not to think that if CC was buying what sure looks like a dog of a class A signal, and if it already owned a first-adjacent B in a significantly smaller market just to the south, that a signal shuffle of some sort might not be already in the works.

It turns out, after a day's reflection and analysis, that this deal appears to have been as much of a surprise to the engineering HQ staff as it was to all of us, and that there appears to be no plan for an upgrade and no easy path for one...but there was no way to know that for sure when this all started breaking Wednesday morning. The CC engineering guys have worked some remarkable allocations miracles in the past, after all.

 

[aaronread]

Well, in theory CC could reef in WWBB's directional pattern and increase the null to the NNE more severely, thus providing some more room for WFNX to "let out" its pattern.

But that seems dubious at best, to me. I'm fairly certain that neither station could go omni at their current power levels and locations. In theory, and this is all guesswork without access to proper contour-plotting software, you could make WFNX omni from OFC if you dropped WWBB's ERP waaaaay down, like below Class A max levels. But that's not taking into account any of the other issues that hem WFNX in.

And even assuming you could make WFNX an omni, you're still only talking a Class A that's de-rated to a couple thousand watts ERP because of the HAAT. That's less than ideal for building penetration, to put it mildly. Arguably it's more valuable than a full Class B in Providence, but that's a spirited argument at a minimum. I'm not convinced it would be worth it.

Now if you could shrink WWBB and somehow get WFNX far enough away from WBUR to deal with the I.F. spacing that WFNX could be a Class B1? Even if WFNX still needed a DA pattern with a null to the north? THAT might be worth it. Problem is, there's no tower close enough to downtown Boston AND tall enough to be worth it. Closest candidate might be their old tower by Malden Hospital but I'm not sure it meets the distance requirement. After that would probably be the same tower that 93.7 is on and, well, look at all the problems that signal has serving the entire market...and 93.7 is not as hemmed-in as 101.7 is. And WWBB would still get gutted, regardless.

I dunno, it's not like the current version of 101.7 is all that hideous a signal as it is. Trying to improve it will cost a lot of money and likely not gain much improvement, but it's not all that bad as-is.

 

[iyiyi]

CC won't dick with their FM signals. All local CC FMs have comfortable footprints in their respective markets. There is no need for CC to move their successful WWBB closer to Boston.

CC has three "clear" choices with 101.7. The mechanics of the situation favor augmenting 1430 AM with a 101.7 FM simulcast, as 101.7 basically "rimshots" the Boston market -- from downtown Boston -- with a directional antenna north toward 1430. The "suits" probably believe that augmenting 1200 AM with an "FM presence" on 101.7 will miraculously make WRKO and WTKK disappear. The third alternative is just that. Plug their "Alt Project" feed into 101.7 and retain the majority of WFNX's current P1s with a signal that currently provides Boston's Colleges and Universities with ideal coverage.

-

 

[raccoonradio]

Do college students count in ratings? Years ago I had read they were considered transitory,
not living in the area full time...
(still, if advertisers want to reach them...) Years ago when WCAS was around there was an
article about them in the Globe or something and it mentioned this.... "if college students
were to be counted in the ratings, Time magazine would soon be beating a path to WCAS' door..."

 

[Dighton Rockhead]

CC won't dick with their FM signals. All local CC FMs have comfortable footprints in their respective markets. There is no need for CC to move their successful WWBB closer to Boston.

You left out one little detail. CC also happens to own the "not as successful" 93.3 WSNE, licensed to Taunton as part of its Providence Cluster.

It's been said by one of the engineering types in the past that, at least in theory, 93.3 could be moved as far north as Weymouth, while remaining a full Class B.

Leaving 101.7 exactly where it is (or perhaps moving it a bit north)......and simulcasting it with a potential "93.3 Weymouth/Boston"....could combine to make ONE viable Boston market entity.

 

[dhoule]

True. But would it then be a problem to have 6 stations in the Boston market.

 

[barryob]

4 FM's in Boston would not be a problem for CC. FCC rules: (1) in a radio market with 45 or more stations, an entity may own up to eight radio stations, no more than five of which may be in the same service (AM or FM); (2) in a radio market with between 30 and 44 radio stations, an entity may own up to seven radio stations, no more than four of which may be in the same service; (3) in a radio market hosting between 15 and 29 radio stations, an entity may own up to six radio stations, no more than four of which may be in the same service; and (4) in a radio market with 14 or fewer radio stations, an entity may own up to five radio stations, no more than three of which may be in the same service, as long as the entity does not own more than 50 percent of all radio stations in that market.