Songs You Remember And Like But Never Get Played

[firepoint525]

They're not that involved with the music and, frankly, most of them love the songs they do hear and want to hear them often.

Let's not exaggerate here. I don't know that they "love" the repetition as much as they just tolerate it. Like you said, they probably aren't involved with the music enough to even notice the repetition. But suffice it to say that the more someone listens, the more likely that "listener fatigue" is likely to settle in. In other words, the less they listen, the less they notice the repetition, but the more they listen, the more they notice it.

They used to have "no-repeat workdays" for all those captive audiences in offices, but now they don't give a damn about captive listeners.

 

[oldies76]

Exactly. We make our living programming to the masses, not one guy in Colorado who isn't even in our metro or a PPM reporter. He is basically a freeloader who wants us to change what we do to suit him. Not gonna happen. Even if you paid a subscription, you wouldn't get what you want.

One guy in Colorado?? Suit him??

No Big A, it's to all the classic hits FANS, it's to the oldies FANS. It's for the people who connect music with their youth.


But, of course, you'll say we are in the 1% minority. Therefore, no one wins.....including you.

 

[Avid Listener]

But the oldies/classic hits format is built on nostalgia.

And that's the whole problem. The nostalgia isn't just for specific songs, it's for an entire genre of music. When those songs were first released, part of the enjoyment was hearing new songs. If you're going to exploit nostalgia, go the whole nine yards and exploit all aspects of that nostalgia. Hearing "new" songs, as in "It was recorded a long time ago but I never heard it back then so it's 'new' to me now", is as much a part of nostalgia for the radio we used to listen to as individual hit songs were. And as the resident expert has told us, without at least 125 repetitions, you cannot test a song. I'd submit that not only goes for songs we never heard before, but is also true for songs we've forgotten.

David DOES win from the standpoint of the average listener.

I guess I'm not "average" enough. My only objection to Dave (or Bob or Ralph or any of those other guys) is the trainwreck segues between songs that flat-out don't work together. I like Deep Purple, and I like Rufus. But I'm sorry, Smoke on the Water next to Tell Me Something Good just doesn't work.

 

[Avid Listener]

And another thing!

Formats like CHR are based on introducing new music. "Classic" music formats are all based on old (or old-sounding) music. Some of our resident experts tell us, in other threads, that if people don't like what's on the classic rock or golden oldies station in town, they'll switch to a CHR station. They even claim that all of the different formats compete with each other for many of the same listeners, who like more than one radio station format. So, why is it that someone who enjoys hearing new songs that sound modern on a CHR station wouldn't enjoy hearing new songs (or at least, new to him) that sound classic on a classic format station?

I suspect that the resident experts in here are sometimes just making stuff up as they go along.

 

[firepoint525]

I don't know...for as many times as I've heard it, The Star Spangled Banner always gets a standing ovation, and people always cheer at the end of Happy Birthday. No burn-out ever registered for either song.

Fine, put those on your playlist and see what kind of reaction you get. If you play "Star-Spangled Banner," I am going to get the impression that you are signing off for the day. Nothing against you playing it, but you will give me the impression that you are signing off, and that the next thing that I hear will be static.

 

[TheBigA]

But, of course, you'll say we are in the 1% minority.

You forget that it's our job to know who the people are, how many of them there are, and exactly what they want. It's more than 1%, but not much more. And as I said, they won't be happy even if there are 20,000 songs in the playlist. People like you are complaining about Pandora right now. So you don't speak for the oldies fans. Just yourself.

 

[TheBigA]

And that's the whole problem. The nostalgia isn't just for specific songs, it's for an entire genre of music.

That's fine but it's not radio's job. Never was. There are lots of places to go relive your youth. Have fun, and enjoy yourself. But that's not our business.

 

[TheBigA]

Some of our resident experts tell us, in other threads, that if people don't like what's on the classic rock or golden oldies station in town, they'll switch to a CHR station.

Not that they WILL, but that they SHOULD. It's very simple...there's a big wide world out there, and radio is more than one station. If you sample the variety across the entire dial, you will never ever hear the same song twice. That's what I do, and so I speak from experience.

 

[davideduardo]

And another thing!

Some of our resident experts tell us, in other threads, that if people don't like what's on the classic rock or golden oldies station in town, they'll switch to a CHR station.

Few will do that, and those that do will be at the crossroads of the CHR and the classic songs formats... in the 35-44 demo mostly.

But the fact remains that in diary markets (below #50 in size) the average listener uses a bit more than 3 stations in the course of a week, and in the PPM markets, they use 6 a week and as many as 9 over a two week period. People know where to go for different formats.

They even claim that all of the different formats compete with each other for many of the same listeners, who like more than one radio station format.

There are, as I told you previously, just 100 shares available. Every station that cares about ratings (and in the average market, as many as half the stations don't and thus don't subscribe) competes with every other station.

So, why is it that someone who enjoys hearing new songs that sound modern on a CHR station wouldn't enjoy hearing new songs (or at least, new to him) that sound classic on a classic format station?

This is where you show you have not actually heard listeners expressing their own opinions in large numbers. It's about expectations. When listeners are in the mood for a classic hits station, they go there expecting to hear "oldies". They do not go to hear new songs, as they know where to get them... perhaps the AC station, or the country station or the Regional Mexican station or even the CHR station.

I suspect that the resident experts in here are sometimes just making stuff up as they go along.

Just as I suspect you are using your own taste and preferences to make assumptions for the behaviours of large groups of people.

 

[davideduardo]

Which explains the payola scandal of the late 1950's, when record companies paid DJ's to play their songs, to turn them into hits.

While nobody denies the prevalence of payola in that era, most of us believe that you can play a stiff 1000 times and it is still a stiff.

Payola in the 50's has been mistakenly associated with an imagined ability to make people like a song they really did not ever like. What payola did was get exposure on the air for songs that might not have gotten a chance because there was much more production than any station could ever include as "pick hits". Record promoters allegedly paid to have their song exposed, knowing that otherwise it might have gotten lost in the stack of 25 or 30 or more new singles a week that were coming in to a station at the time.

But the exposure did not guarantee that the song would be a hit. It just got the song past the gatekeeper.

And, you've just negated everything you've posted recently about how foolproof and reliable testing is. By keeping songs off the air, you ensure that they'll never test well. So, it still comes down to a bunch of guys who don't really give a damn about music sitting in a conference room and deciding which songs get fed into the system to get enough airplay to become familiar, at which point they can be turned into hits.

First, let's not stereotype music selection to being done by a "bunch of guys" as that negates the contributions of people like Betty Breneman, Coleeen Cassidy and Rosalie Trombley and many others who have been major contributors to music radio.

Stations use a variety of criteria to select new adds if they are stations that even play new music.

Obviously, new releases by core artists get the first attention. Then new releases by newer artists that have had a hit or two recently, and finally artists with no track record. Then stations check the adds at similar stations in other markets. They may have a new music conference call with sister stations that are in the same format.

Finally, the pick the song or two a week that best fit the "openings" on the playlist. If no song slot is available because nothing has weakened enough to go to recurrent or no song has stiffed, nothing is added.

It all comes down to some dedicated people who care about what the listener will want to hear and will like hearing.

Doesn't deciding which songs get the 125 plays you refer to in order to enable the song to pass your tests dictating what you want them to hear?

No, that is format mechanics. Only so many new songs can fit, so some will not get played. It has been the same in Top 40 radio for the last 62 years.

 

[TheBigA]

Doesn't deciding which songs get the 125 plays you refer to in order to enable the song to pass your tests dictating what you want them to hear?

Let me add that since we're literally getting our information from the listeners, it's THEY who are dictating to us, and therefore the rest of the oldies audience. If you don't like the songs on oldies radio, you have other listeners to blame. We're merely the messenger.

 

[ok walters]

I have been reading David's keen insight for quite some time and have learned a lot about many different subjects. There is no "making stuff up as they go along" with him. And I do agree with the title "resident expert" because that is exactly what he is. Thanks for all of the education you have provided me free of charge, David - it is appreciated by this industry person.

If a song was a "deep cut" in 1970, it was not popular enough to be a hit and therefore will not be included in a "classic hits" format. In 2014, it is even a deeper cut, and when all music research is considered, only the true hits of the era will make the cut. I look at it as you are only as good as your weakest song, and deep cuts that didn't chart are going to be pretty weak to the average listener.

I have had this argument with a oldies DJ at a station I used to manage. He wanted a 4000-5000 song library and we were only using about 1000 songs, which is likely a stretch in reality - 800 would have likely been better. He didn't understand that while he may have known 5000 songs, he was the exception and was in the "1%". He listened around the clock and claimed to hear repeats too often, and refused to accept that the average listener only listened for about 45 minutes. His attitude was a good reason to never let him be the PD as he had zero understanding of programming to the masses. Familiarity is what the masses generally want, and music test after music test will confirm that.

If you had a 1000 song classic hits library and you played 14 songs per hour, it would take about three days to play the entire list. If the average listener only listens one hour per day (which is a stretch), they may not hear a repeat for months - yes, months. And when they did hear a repeat, it wouldn't feel like one as it had been a significant period of time since they heard it last. I know that may be over simplifying it, but the numbers rarely lie.

 

[firepoint525]

Not that they WILL, but that they SHOULD. It's very simple...there's a big wide world out there, and radio is more than one station. If you sample the variety across the entire dial, you will never ever hear the same song twice. That's what I do, and so I speak from experience.

Let's see. I have five out of the six presets on the car radio:

classic hits
JACK-FM
AAA
classic rock
AC
for the sixth one, I try to listen to a college station playing oldies, but I am just outside their primary listening area. So that sixth preset gets reset often, depending on what part of town I am in.

Most of the ones that everyone says are overplayed (like "Brown-Eyed Girl") tend to turn up on nearly ALL of the above stations.

Survey your listeners about which songs are overplayed and you will probably get "Brown-Eyed Girl," "Sweet Home Alabama," "Hotel California," etc., depending on format of the station. Notice that I said overplayed, so that CAN'T include "stiffs" that are not on your playlist. I remember seeing a story on the yahoo homepage about overplayed songs, and I believe these made the list, along with "Stairway to Heaven." Oh, and you can't even escape "Brown-Eyed Girl" on country stations, since Jimmy Buffett has a remake of it that sometimes gets played there.

 

[TheBigA]

Most of the ones that everyone says are overplayed (like "Brown-Eyed Girl") tend to turn up on nearly ALL of the above stations.

At the exact same time?

Look...it's really easy, and I've been doing this since I was in high school. The minute an "overplayed" song comes on, switch the station. The radio is really close. The police won't see that you've taken on hand off the wheel. Just reach out and touch. Poof! Annoying song is gone.

However, don't do it with the wife in the car. My personal experience is women HATE it when men change stations all the time.

That also goes for TV. I'm the same way with the TV remote. The minute the annoying commercial comes on...POOF...I change the station. I don't know how I lived without remote control. But now I'm a very happy guy.

 

[firepoint525]

At the exact same time?

Okay, well you're just being obtuse now. If people say it is overplayed, it's because it is! Not everyone is listening at the exact same time as I am, so they may not necessarily be hearing it when I am, but I believe them when they say that they hear it a lot. Why? Because I also hear it a lot! The shame of this is that Van Morrison has had a long career, and as far as I know, he is still out there making new music, but he is only going to be known for just a small handful of songs. I don't dislike "Brown-Eyed Girl," but I won't go out of my way to hear it either. And I suspect that the "masses" out there are exactly the same. It is just NOT one of those that most of us sit and listen to on the radio until it finishes playing. If I get where I am going while it is playing, I will go ahead and get out of the car, and go wherever it is that I was going. There are songs that will make me sit and listen to the radio until they finish playing, but "Brown-Eyed Girl" is just not one of them.

And fortunately for me, my wife's tastes are similar to mine. Probably about 80% overlap of music that we both like!

 

[davideduardo]

I have been reading David's keen insight for quite some time and have learned a lot about many different subjects. There is no "making stuff up as they go along" with him. And I do agree with the title "resident expert" because that is exactly what he is. Thanks for all of the education you have provided me free of charge, David - it is appreciated by this industry person.

Thank you... most appreciated and valued!

Of course, the caveat is that there are many ways to achieve programming goals within the business that is radio. I just give views and opinions based on my experience and background. There are plenty of people who would do things differently, all with the same objective.

A good example is TheBigA who has contributed to this thread. He and I may have different perspectives on a number of things, and I really like reading his posts as he brings up issues and items that I did not know, or had only one point of view on.

But, for the non-industry folks who raise these rotation and repetition issues, you, A and I all present the same fundamental information about what works and what does not. I enjoy explaining our industry to anyone interested, so I understand the seeming unwillingness to understand. Still, this is like tennis: no matter how many times you hit the same ball over the same net, it's still fun.

 

[TheBigA]

Okay, well you're just being obtuse now. If people say it is overplayed, it's because it is! Not everyone is listening at the exact same time as I am, so they may not necessarily be hearing it when I am, but I believe them when they say that they hear it a lot.

You misunderstand me. I'm trying to provide a solution to your particular problem. Read the rest of my post.

 

[oldies76]

You forget that it's our job to know who the people are, how many of them there are, and exactly what they want. It's more than 1%, but not much more. And as I said, they won't be happy even if there are 20,000 songs in the playlist. People like you are complaining about Pandora right now. So you don't speak for the oldies fans. Just yourself.

The only thing I have ever complained recently about are classic hits stations reducing their playlists...a good example of this is the Rick Thomas KRTH, and stations playing burnt out hits 3-5 times a day. It's utterly ridiculous and wrong.

All I ask is for some lesser played songs mixed in with the tested songs, throughout the day. Like a "lost hit" segment every hour. If radio cannot even do that, then there is something seriously wrong. I've never said play the lesser hits all day, just mix them in every so often.

Radio used to be this way and it's no longer. That's my complaint. And yes, I do speak for many oldies fans because that's their chief complaint, not enough of their favorites and songs they like are being played!!

At least CT Listener understands where hell I'm coming from.

Like I said, it's a no win situation for either side.

 

[oldies76]

Okay, well you're just being obtuse now.

"What did you call me?" "A month in the hole!!"

Nice line Firepoint, from the best film ever made!

 

[oldies76]

Look...it's really easy, and I've been doing this since I was in high school. The minute an "overplayed" song comes on, switch the station. The radio is really close..

You are now admitting that when an "overplayed" song comes on, for a listener to "switch the station".

Exactly...you have a glimmer of hope to what we've been discussing all this time. People "switching the station" when an "overplayed" song comes on (but to you, a positively tested song) is exactly what causes ratings to drop.

So see, it does not matter if a tested song airs, or a lost hit airs, if the listener is tired of either, they will "switch the station the minute it comes on". Thank you.