Sound quality in regards to CD drives

[Trm0869]

Is it just me or do different drives (i.e. Plextor , Liteon etc...) have a different tonal balance when a CD is ripped to the computer? Even when I use a program like Exact Audio Copy at say a speed of x4 which is the lowest I have used.If the audio on the disc is digital how is is this possible. Wouldn't the file be the same no matter which drive I would use considering the audio extraction is digital not analog?

Another question I have is what is the standard for putting music into an automation system like NexGen, is it using an external standalone CD player (like direct dubbing through the soundcard), We use AudioScience cards? I know that ripping audio is quicker ,however according to the documentation on Orbans' website which states that direct dubbing is the most common way of transferring audio.Which as we all now would take a lot longer.We did this years ago with cart machines.Is there a particular brand ,and model number of a CD drive that is better? A new good Plextor is hard to come by these days unless you live in Europe.


Merry Christmas

 

[Goat Rodeo Cowboy]

......,however according to the documentation on Orbans' website which states that direct dubbing is the most common way of transferring audio.Which as we all now would take a lot longer......

There is a LOT of stuff to read on the Orban site. Which page or document contains this statement? I want to see the context in which they used that statement.

Even Bob Orban would have to do a lot of explaining before I would buy into the idea that a digital extraction (ripping) of something from a CD would have different tonality when using different CD drives.

 

[gtomas]

Is it just me or do different drives (i.e. Plextor , Liteon etc...) have a different tonal balance when a CD is ripped to the computer? Even when I use a program like Exact Audio Copy at say a speed of x4 which is the lowest I have used.If the audio on the disc is digital how is is this possible. Wouldn't the file be the same no matter which drive I would use considering the audio extraction is digital not analog?

Ripping is extraction of digital bits from the CD into an audio file on your computer. Unless there are problems during ripping that would cause the bits to be unreadable or corrupted, there would be no difference between different drives. If the drive is incapable of reading (ripping) the CD correctly, it is often because either the drive is bad or the CD is so damaged that there is no help...

Another question I have is what is the standard for putting music into an automation system like NexGen, is it using an external standalone CD player (like direct dubbing through the soundcard), We use AudioScience cards? I know that ripping audio is quicker ,however according to the documentation on Orbans' website which states that direct dubbing is the most common way of transferring audio.Which as we all now would take a lot longer.We did this years ago with cart machines.Is there a particular brand ,and model number of a CD drive that is better? A new good Plextor is hard to come by these days unless you live in Europe.

Orban mentions a procedure where you would manually dub the CD into your database. Often the operator would "ride gain" (hopefully keeping the audio in digital domain, using a digital gain controller) during "ingest" to level out the song, smooth or speed up fade ins/outs, etc. This would be the only advantage that manual transfer of music into the playout system would have over ripping with good quality software (such as EAC).


Regards,
Goran Tomas

 

[SirRoxalot]

Bits is bits, but when you rip a CD, you're usually doing a conversion to a particular type of file format for storage on the computer. The bits are NOT in the same format as the original CD, so there is a translation involved. Different programs may handle that translation differently.

Also, the CD is the victim of the original encoding, and of the original recording. Audio levels vary significantly, which means that the volume of different tracks may vary significantly. Some programs can automatically "normalize" volume to a pre-set level so there isn't a noticeable volume change from track to track.

 

[Goat Rodeo Cowboy]

Bits is bits, but when you rip a CD, you're usually doing a conversion to a particular type of file format for storage on the computer. The bits are NOT in the same format as the original CD, so there is a translation involved. Different programs may handle that translation differently.

Conversion to mp3 or to wma etc does involve a conversion. Referring back to the original question of this thread, changing CD drives should not affect this process. Changing ripping software/conversion software could affect this process. If a person, when changing cd drives, also installed software that came with each drive during the change process, the changed software could result in a different sounding result which one might blame on the drive rather than the software.

I don't do that much ripping. I normally rip to .wav even if I plan for it to eventually translate the file to mp3 or other format. GORAN: this may be down your alley- - - Maybe I should trudge through the Red Book specs to get the answer. I assume the digital info on the CD is in essence the same DATA that ends up in the wav file. The CD would have a header with info, and maybe each frame of data carries some timing info, etc. But the audio data- - does it have to be run through a math algorithm to produce the wav audio?

 

[Goat Rodeo Cowboy]

Orban mentions a procedure where you would manually dub the CD into your database. Often the operator would "ride gain" (hopefully keeping the audio in digital domain, using a digital gain controller) during "ingest" to level out the song, smooth or speed up fade ins/outs, etc. This would be the only advantage that manual transfer of music into the playout system would have over ripping with good quality software (such as EAC).

I had not thought about doing it that way. The main reason being that I don't have access to an audio system that would make that possible. (live manipulation in digital mode.) I guess I have known some people with classic disk-jockey artistic traits who could sit there wearing a set of headphones and really finesse a track that way.

I end up with lectures, seminars, and religious material that is recorded directly to CD, which I rip to .wav. My "weapon of choice" is Adobe Audition. In the EDIT view, I use the ENVELOPE tool and while highlighting a section that may be 11 seconds long, or a section that may be 12 minutes long, I will create either a curve or a linear slope that "rides gain" on the selected section.

What I have not taken the time to learn is using the MULTI-TRACK view and create LANES that might be useful in cleaning up long sections with more complex needs.

I am not fond of using the automated normalization schemes in ripping software, editing software or burning software because they normally rely in PEAK values. One peak somewhere in a five minute track and the whole track is reduced accordingly. Adobe does offer a normalization of tracks based on RMS values which I found cumbersome... but it did put me in-gear to use Average RMS values of tracks to get them to match up in volume.

 

[satech]

One thing you have to be careful about when "ripping" CDs are those which were recorded with pre-emphasis. Most CD rippers won't de-emphasize the audio in the WAV files they create, leaving it sounding far too bright as compared to playing the same music directly from a hardware CD player. (Apple iTunes, however, does properly apply de-emphasis when ripping pre-emphasized CDs into your iTunes library.) I have even found some compilation CDs where some of the tracks are pre-emphasized and others are not.

HDCD encoding is also an issue on discs which were recorded with it. An HDCD decoder theoretically extends the audio to 20 bits of resolution, and can apply up to 6 dB of "peak extension," giving you a less compressed/clipped sound. Most HDCDs have the HDCD logo on them, but some do not. But in a broadcast environment where the music is going to be run through heavy processing and clipping anyway, this probably isn't much of a problem.

 

[Goat Rodeo Cowboy]

One thing you have to be careful about when "ripping" CDs are those which were recorded with pre-emphasis. Most CD rippers won't de-emphasize the audio in the WAV files they create, leaving it sounding far too bright as compared to playing the same music directly from a hardware CD player.

Interesting.

Other than it sounding bright, how do I know when I have a CD or a CD track that has been recorded with pre-emphasis? Does the average consumer CD player have the ability to tell the difference.... and the ability to adjust its playback accordingly?

HDCD encoding is also an issue on discs which were recorded with it. An HDCD decoder theoretically extends the audio to 20 bits of resolution, and can apply up to 6 dB of "peak extension," giving you a less compressed/clipped sound. Most HDCDs have the HDCD logo on them, but some do not.

Similar questions here: If I have and HDCD and I would like to rip it and maintain the extra bits, which rippers can do this?

 

[rorban]

Because of the huge differences between peak-to-RMS ratios in older CD mastering jobs compared to anything mastered in the last 10 years or so, we recommend adjusting the level of transfers so that the integrated RMS value of the various cuts is comparable. This greatly eases the amount of gain riding that the on-air audio processor's AGC has to do. (This is what ReplayGain attempts to do, although it uses metadata instead of changing the level of the audio data.)

Manual gain riding of cuts is a different issue. I believe that it can make a difference in the polish of the final on-air product. However, if the integrated RMS levels of the various elements in the playout system are matched, the AGCs in good modern on-air processors should be able to handle all but the most unusual level variations within a given element.

As for ripping itself, we recommend Exact Audio Copy, which can use information that certain CD drives generate internally to ascertain if the rip is bit-for-bit accurate. But we definitely don't believe in Stereophile-style woo and black magic

We also invite all this board's readers to pick up a copy of our white paper, "Maintaining Audio Quality in the Broadcast Facility" at
http://www.orban.com/support/orban/...io_Quality_in_the_Broadcast_Facility_2008.pdf

Bob Orban

Bob Orban

 

[littlejohn]

> But we definitely don't believe in Stereophile-style woo and black magic

Does this mean the R. Orban Signature Model green magic marker for CD edges is no longer available?

Rats.

 

[rorban]

> But we definitely don't believe in Stereophile-style woo and black magic

Does this mean the R. Orban Signature Model green magic marker for CD edges is no longer available?

Rats.

It's been out of stock for a *long* time

 

[satech]

Other than it sounding bright, how do I know when I have a CD or a CD track that has been recorded with pre-emphasis? Does the average consumer CD player have the ability to tell the difference.... and the ability to adjust its playback accordingly?

Any hardware CD player should perform the de-emphasis upon playback; some older high-end models even have a relay which clicks on when a pre-emphasized track is played. So the pre/de-emphasis process is unnoticeable... until you "rip" the track on your PC, and suddenly it sounds too bright.

Similar questions here: If I have and HDCD and I would like to rip it and maintain the extra bits, which rippers can do this?

I was researching the same question a while ago, and found a program called "dB PowerAmp Music Converter" which, with an appropriate plug-in, can perform the HDCD decoding (with peak extension) when ripping a CD, and spit out a 24-bit WAV or FLAC file. It can also process already-ripped WAV files. I also found a simple command line utility, I believe just called "hdcd.exe", which does the same thing. With some old-fashioned DOS batch programming, I used the command line utility to go through my entire library of ripped music, and it found a few HDCD-encoded tracks I hadn't even known about, since the CDs they came from make no mention of it.