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Sound Solutions Processor

Let's remember, the sound is the thing. The LRL count may be high, or the stuff may be 'feature rich' but the one who sounds the best is likely to win the game. And I gave it a try... the Omnia beats the generic box all to hell on a reboot. Although, if you have enough crud coming out of the UPS, the exciter reboot will take longer than either one.
As to Leif's software, the quick test of efficacy is this: When cracks begine to appear for it on the warez boards, it's becoming popular. I suspect it's the direction of the future, if for no other reason than econimics.
 
radioengr said:
konbaasiang said:
Well, if you're looking for good sound, and you're ready to take the plunge, look no further than http://claessonedwards.com ;)

I can't speak for the quality of your product but your ego is tip-top!

True that, radioengr. With all due respect, Leif - and it IS a lot of respect - your selfdom's writing checks your processor can't cash. BBP is a good product and it has its place in the market. However, that place isn't as a replacement for an Omnia, Orban, DSP-X or any other standalone box. That's not just me talking - go ask just about any chief engineer/director of engineering in a top 100 market. And it isn't a "resistance of change" matter, as some surmise because if that were an issue you wouldn't see the proliferation of PC-based automation systems.
 
Rob Stutson said:
And it isn't a "resistance of change" matter, as some surmise because if that were an issue you wouldn't see the proliferation of PC-based automation systems.

Regarding resistance to change, I believe it IS a factor. Remember (or if you are too young, think about) that automation computers replaced cart machines, reel to reel and clunky monsters built on relay or Z80 processor.

And in the ealry days of micrprocessor-based equipment came out there was a lot of FUD about that.

A PC, while not perfect, is SO much better than cart machines it is similar to the change from Steam to Diesel in the railroads - a complete no-brainer.

In any case, the real reason people want PC-based equipment is to try and get by at a lower cost. For amateurs this may be OK, but the overworked professional have no time to deal with ANYTHING and therefore rely on top notch support to keep on the air.

There can be no doubt that limiting the hardware to something other than a huge class of PC's with assorted hardware and OS'es. Software support is messy all the way around and doing it at the level expected by broadcast engineers is very hard to do, particularly if it is bundles with a product.

Let's put it this way: If your $100 software processor and required a $1000/year support contract in order to compare to what you get with a hardware processor how would you feel about that?
 
RealityCheckr said:
A PC, while not perfect, is SO much better than cart machines it is similar to the change from Steam to Diesel in the railroads - a complete no-brainer.

RealityCheckr,

Don't let Mr. Foti see talk like that! He'll tie you to the 7.5" tracks, and...well, let's say...we'll all hope something unfortunate won't happen!

-C
 
The way as I see it it's not only the fear of change. The drawbacks of software processing on a "regular" pc can be covered by setting it up redundantly with audio switches in front etc but then what will cover your new single point of failure the audio switch? I mean, where do you draw the line? But let's say that you have a good stable windows platform with top notch hardware designed for 24/7 operation with failover power supply, ECC memory, raid1 set or flash drive or whatever we come up in the future. I'm in the IT and I can know, things STILL go wrong. Where? Software crashes mostly but it all comes back to people using/adjusting it at the end. Now where am I heading? As what Scott was telling earlier, how can you vouch for your product when you don't have the entire picture in your own control? And let's say that Leif will be able to add good support to his product. I think he will go under because of the vast amount of different hardware setups out there. If I take a look at how Linux was to change the software industry because it's free and open character. It didn't so much as they thought. The major companies still go software with the best support. Not only by other vendors but also by the company that makes it. And I'm not only talking about Microsoft here, companies like Novel and Redhat that use Linux in the basis make money on support/licenses. They tailor a Linux distribution so things WILL work together out of the box with other software and if they don't you get support because you did pay for it. Now this is the whole reason why a major player would go for a all in one box that is supported rather than just the software and add you own hardware to it. Same thing is going on in the telephone market. PABX are expensive and with VOIP you can run it a regular PC. But even here we still rely on expensive out of the box supported PABX's made by big vendors like Mitel, Cisco or Notell. We tried it also with stuff like Astrix, Trixbox etc and it does the trick if you stick long enough with it. But it just isn't up there in mission critical situations when you need to be confident when your ass is on the line.
Software processing will grow and have its place in the market but I don't think it will drastically change the world. What it will do is show that people are willing to change the way they look at processing. BBF showed that people are willing to sacrifice delay for better quality. This may be something hardware boxes will incorporate in their next release also. Add buffers, linear filtering and more complex algorithms to clean stuff up. Basically most of the hardware boxes already have this with a separate stage for talent monitoring with low latency path and a slightly more complicated path for on-air sound but this could be stretched even further.

Just my elaborate thoughts on the matter ;)
 
F Mister, I have actually written a low latency prototype. Total Analog Input -> MPX Output throughput delay is 18ms. Audio quality is very nearly as good as full latency BBP, and distortion-wise it's still comfortably ahead of other processors. Still xylophone safe, telephone safe, saxophone safe. It's right at the edge though -- cutting latency down further noticeably reduces quality, and increasing latency further would mean you absolutely couldn't monitor off air. Due to the internal block size of the processing (which is already halved compared to BBP), pure i/o latency is 6ms, leaving 12ms for the actual processing, including multiband, clippers and everything else. It was an extremely tight squeeze to get the good distortion control into a pipeline that short. I guess I couldn't resist doing it, to prove once and for all that it's not the delay that counts, it's *what* you do with it, and that it was actually possible to take a major step forward in quality even while matching latency. Omnia 6 is 12ms as far as I remember, so even my low latency version is significantly slower -- but with 8500 at 17ms and 8400 at 19ms, BBP at 18ms can probably be deemed reasonable.

Indeed BBP as it exists now is very low cost. At $199, there is no definitely no margin for direct one-on-one support -- it's an off-the-shelf product. Of course, that doesn't preclude me from keeping up with questions in the Forum as best as I can :).

Please note that BBP, while currently being the flagship in the Breakaway lineup, is actually the *entry-level* broadcast version. The more advanced versions just aren't finished yet. They're prototyped, and they work, but they're not sellable products yet.

Price has likely been a major factor in the decision making process for many stations who have bought BBP, but certainly not all! Some stations have gone with Breakaway because it sounds the best, regardless of cost. Other big networks are testing and doing shootouts for the same reason. It's indeed an unorthodox strategy to deliver an entry level product with top notch algorithms and simplified controls -- usually entry level broadcast products have full control but simplified algorithms -- but who's to say every company has to develop products the same way?

Rob, I'm not sure I understand your comment. BBP isn't meant to be used standalone -- it's meant to be run on a computer. Once it's properly configured on a computer, then that computer+software combo essentially becomes a standalone box, and can replace one. Or, what do you mean? Please clarify.

Regarding my confidence in myself and the product, the only real complaint I've heard about BBP is the latency. I have never heard a single complaint regarding the audio quality itself. It's not a coincidence -- I wrote it that way. I heard distortion I didn't like in other processors, and I worked for *years* to make a processor that didn't have the same problems. My own pair of ears tell me I succeeded (they have been an instrumental tool throughout development), and other pairs of ears seem to agree. As such, confidence grows!

Of course, I always strive to improve things. Constructive criticism is welcome!

For example:

Definining "Problem Cut" as a song that suddenly and inexplicably exhibits distortion, spectral balance shifts, pumping or ducking, using settings that sound fine on the vast majority of other program material, specifically excluding settings which sound bad on everything (which is certainly possible with BBP like with other processors, just turn Bass and Final Drive up) --

If you find a Problem Cut with BBP, which sounds fine on another processor set up for a similar sound, by all means let me know! Record MPX from BBP and the other processor, tell me the settings you were using, and I'll take a look at it and try to solve it.

I haven't found a problem cut for a long time now (since I wrote the current clipper algorithm) so I absolutely welcome any input on this.


Cornelius, LOL! Good one, and yeah he would :-D.

Best,
///Leif
 
I don't see latency as a problem at all. Given the use of profanity delay and the coding delay for HD, we haven't used real time off-air for anything in years. We build a faux air feed for the jocks using Innovonics proc amps, and they're happy with it. And, if someone does say 'schiess' and they're not on the DUMP button, they still got eight seconds or so to kill the carrier. Given that circumstance, even a second or two of latency in the proc box just doesn't matter one way or the other to the operation.. although it helps if it's constant. If it gives better results because of the look ahead ability, then leave it there.
 
littlejohn said:
I don't see latency as a problem at all. Given the use of profanity delay and the coding delay for HD, we haven't used real time off-air for anything in years.

From a processor design perspective, I wish all broadcasters were like you... Meaning, that they don't care about the delay. When designing algorithms, this gives you a freedom and a much larger playing field.

But a lot of broadcasters are still analog and a lot of them seem to want to monitor off-air. The market heavily punished Orban when they introduced the 8400 back in 2000, and it had the delay over 20 ms. Orban also believed that with going digital, the delay will not be an issue and they really liked what they can do with it, processing wise. But it was almost a "feature" that killed the product. Luckily for them, they were fairly quick to respond with subsequent upgrades. The 8500 now even includes an ultra-low algorithm with less than 4 ms latency.

Was Orban ahead of the time and today the delay is less of an issue? Or is it still an important factor? I guess the market will say...


Regards,
Goran Tomas
 
You hit the nail Goran, this is just what I tried to point out. Now I'm curious when delay is not an issue and the "hardware processing" manufacturers will take on the challenge and start adding delay to improve quality will it be able to outperform software processing? Is the quality really only the software or will software written for specific hardware have the advantage?
 
F Mister, it's only the software. A given algorithm, whether running on a DSP or an x86, will sound the same. It all comes down to the math! 2+3=5 even on a Commodore 64. If said Commodore 64 could calculate the math *quickly* enough, it could be an FM processor as well.

The only specific hardware that could make any difference is analog hardware. However, then we're talking a Hybrid Analog/Digital design. It's been quite a while since any processor did that. The last big one was the 8200, but to be honest I count the 8200 as all digital -- the only analog part is the Stereo Encoder, which is a straight, reference quality stereo encoder without filtering and clipping. The stereo encoder does not add its fingerprints to the sound, it's transparent, so I believe it was a completely justifiable decision back in a time when DSP power was scarce and expensive (1990-ish).

I believe the Vigilante was also hybrid analog/digital (or, digitally-sampled analog), but every processor after those two (8200 and Vigilante), from both Orban and Omnia, have been 100% digital, which makes them 100% software.

///Leif
 
konbaasiang said:
I believe the Vigilante was also hybrid analog/digital (or, digitally-sampled analog), but every processor after those two (8200 and Vigilante), from both Orban and Omnia, have been 100% digital, which makes them 100% software.

///Leif

Yo, Leif!

I believe you are thinking of the Unity 2000, which used PWM through CMOS switching for audio gain control. One of several analog processors out there that used that scheme. Pretty interesting...you chop up the audio at some high rate (60 kHz-ish) and from there, you can manipulate the audio gain by varying the duty cycle of the switch waveform. Sort of like how switching power supplies regulate voltage.

The Vigilante was all analog.

:)

-C
 
konbaasiang said:
F Mister, it's only the software. A given algorithm, whether running on a DSP or an x86, will sound the same. It all comes down to the math! 2+3=5 even on a Commodore 64. If said Commodore 64 could calculate the math *quickly* enough, it could be an FM processor as well.

The only specific hardware that could make any difference is analog hardware. However, then we're talking a Hybrid Analog/Digital design. It's been quite a while since any processor did that. The last big one was the 8200, but to be honest I count the 8200 as all digital -- the only analog part is the Stereo Encoder, which is a straight, reference quality stereo encoder without filtering and clipping. The stereo encoder does not add its fingerprints to the sound, it's transparent, so I believe it was a completely justifiable decision back in a time when DSP power was scarce and expensive (1990-ish).

I believe the Vigilante was also hybrid analog/digital (or, digitally-sampled analog), but every processor after those two (8200 and Vigilante), from both Orban and Omnia, have been 100% digital, which makes them 100% software.

///Leif

So there’s no way you could have the advantage when you also already provide the (digital)encoder with your software and have this encoder deal better with your 0's and 1's that come out the processing path? And have your software algorithms deal with certain ad/da conversions that you have ahead of the processing that behave a certain way?
 
Cornelius, gotcha! My bad. I always mix those two up. :) Cool way to handle it too, although I personally might have called it digitally controlled analog as opposed to digitally sampled analog. Just goes to show why I'm not in the marketing department!

F Mister, no, there really is no way to take advantage of that. Even a *cheap cheap* consumer sound card (SB Audigy2 ZS) has (when looking from the point of view of over-the-air FM stereo), after proper tilt calibration and peq, has incredibly low noise floor, incredibly low distortion, and incredibly flat frequency response. Granted, an SB Audigy 2 couldn't drive 500 feet of coax the way a specially designed amplifier can, but other than that, the three design goals for the output section an FM processor are met.

The 0s and 1s that come out of the processing code are standardized digital audio. There is nothing to gain from modifying those bits afterwards -- anything you can do in analog, you can do in digital provided that you oversample far enough.

Best,
///Leif
 
I think the Aphex2020 was along the same lines, digitally controlled analog audio. When compared to some of the other boxes at the time, it sure sounded prettier.
 
Sgeirk said:
I think the Aphex2020 was along the same lines, digitally controlled analog audio. When compared to some of the other boxes at the time, it sure sounded prettier.

On some formats...yes. If, however, you were in a loudness war, and you had content with lots of female sibilant "esses", you'd hear the 2020 clipper "fuzz" in a way that made the "esses" sound line "FFFF" -- where other analog boxes didn't do that.

If you didn't have the above conditions, it played OK...

-C
 
konbaasiang said:
Sounds like Aphex forgot to add a capacitor to their clipper design, or what do you think? :)

///Leif

I think the criteria the box was designed to meet were different. Aphex never really had a
good distortion canceled clipper scheme...and they seemed to cater to formats where being
loud and super bright wasn't the objective.

I think this is why you saw so many of these units on classical and jazz formats over the
years as well as some markets where the loudness hammer wasn't used much.

In the last 2020 unit I saw, the clipper scheme was a bit more extensive than what was in the stock Dominators,
but built around the same idea. Use LED's as soft clippers.

The Vigilante (that you mentioned before) was an Aphex Dominator that Frank Foti modified with an actual
distortion canceled clipper scheme that he designed as well as breaking out thresholds and time constants
to better fine tune it to your format. He later re-worked his clipper a bit and re-introduced it in the
Unity 2000 series audio processors.

-C
 
I was always pretty happy with the Aphex's ability to compete until the Omnia 6 came out. The Aphex's AGC always seemed to over compensate on heavily pre-clipped audio...which is now a standard issue. I agree, Aphex2020's worked better on more open formats...oldies, jazz, classical, ac...classic country. Once the Omnia 6 came out: game over.
 
Referring back to the original post, frankly after re-evaluating it, the Sounds Solutions is a POS, a toy at best. A valiant attempt, but it doesn't cut it. Too many issues with peak limiting, distortion and pumping. I have now switched over to the Breakaway and am much more satisfied. It is not perfect, but for the price and what it does, it is in a class of its own. It doesn't pump even when the AGC is upped. Unlike the SS, it works with lower bits, and diminished the "crackling glass sound" on the high end of mp3's. It also sounds decent on voice, unlike the Sound Solutions.
 
elchupacabras said:
Referring back to the original post, frankly after re-evaluating it, the Sounds Solutions is a POS, a toy at best. A valiant attempt, but it doesn't cut it. Too many issues with peak limiting, distortion and pumping. I have now switched over to the Breakaway and am much more satisfied. It is not perfect, but for the price and what it does, it is in a class of its own. It doesn't pump even when the AGC is upped. Unlike the SS, it works with lower bits, and diminished the "crackling glass sound" on the high end of mp3's. It also sounds decent on voice, unlike the Sound Solutions.

Yes,

To make something that can turn the audio down when it exceeds "x" threshold, and turn it back up when it falls below the same point is easy to do. You can even split that process across multiple bands, and perform the process on different parts fo the spectrum too!

Many cheapish software solutions are just simply doing that process above.

This process does not happen in nature. The manipulation of levels is easy to hear if it isn't dealt with on a more sophisticated level.

That's where the mixture of science and art comes into play.

Those of us who seriously dive into this field devote a lifetime to applying the science of psycho-acoustics and plain ol creativity to make a totally unnatural process sound natural. Once you get to that point, you just don't give the results away ;)

In fact, I'm finishing up a processor project that started a little over four years ago! It takes some serious work to make a good sounding audio processor! I think you are beginning to appreciate the end results of someone's (in this case, Leif's) long hard work on one such audio processor design!

-C
 
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