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sound system built into your promo van, looking for advice

I

IngenieroPerron

i got about $2000 of budget money but i cant think of many ways to do this cheap and unreliable and few ways to built it like a tank and very reliable. need to build three sound system / pa packages and its $2000 per van

the big thing is obviously the rack. i have 2003 chevy vans. a 3 foot steel rack behind the driver seat is what i had in mind but im open to some of your ideas and installations.

as for equipment, just the basics

for a tuner, probably a good HD tuner, or a cheap car stereo HD tuner, or a good am/fm denon tuner.

a mixer, there is so many of them but im good with a Rane single rack knob style or even up to full blown club type mixer but rather go with less knobs and

cd player, i hate this so much, there is obvouisly not a rugged cd player that my promo guys can take care of. its almost out of the question. im probbaly moving to mp3 players that we can plug and play and can safely remove and update music

wireless microphone. looking for good mic but not a super mic, it just needs to work in the van area and i need a pair of them

amps and speakers, speakers are probably our worse expense ever, they get blown out, broken, thrashed, so were going to permanantely installed them. this will be problematic since we can point of have the speakers near the tent area if the van is parked far away, but thats not my problem. is attaching the speakers on the doors to swing open or cut a hole on the van sides and mount a weather resistant speaker?

powering all the stuff will be inverters. no chance for generators.

i hope i can get some replies and thank you in advance
 
Skip the tuner. Use the truck radio instead, it will work better.
Use aftermarket amps, bolt them to the truck walls, or ribs if it isn't finished inside.
Use a Shure wireless and put a whip or two on the roof for it.

To be blunt, $2k is going to do a very poor job for you. If you're stuck at that number, why not pick up one of the Fender packages, with wireless built in.

An inverter making any power at all is going to want to leave the truck motor running, which will kill it fairly quickly. Measure the current draw, see what four hours of that is going to do to th battery, and purchas some long extension cords.

The last two I puit together ran us just at $20K foer the equipment and parts to install. They rocked.
 
If you go the inverter route, be sure to add at least one additional 12-volt deep cycle battery to the vehicle. You can buy a battery isolator at a RV supply store. This will allow the vehicle to charge both batteries, but it isolates the starting battery from the inverter battery so you can start the van even when the inverter battery is low.

As for wireless mics, Shure is always a good choice. Sennheiser Evolution series are great mics and have excellent range and sound quality. Audio Technica has some low priced entries that seem to work OK in areas where the RF spectrum isn't too congested.

If you do a CD player, I'd suggest a Stanton, American DJ or Numark. I haven't had very good luck with Gemini. In any case don't spend over $200, and consider it a disposable item.

As Littlejohn pointed out, you don't really have an adequate budget. The Fender Passport systems work fairly well and are easy to use. I know some will hate it, but I've had great luck with Behringer stuff. It is a lot of bang for the buck, and contrary to popular myths, I've had very little trouble with it.
 
Obviously 2k is a pretty big limitation. With that being said here's what I've found to work very well. First, do yourself a favor and get a GOOD wood rack from a cabinet maker. We have a guy here in OKC that's excellent at doing them, makeing them VERY sturdy with a lift-out back door and a fender washer flattened on one side as the keep at the top. (turn the washer and then you can take the door off the back to remove it to work on it. There are at least two places to put the rack. You can put it to the left as you look into the side door or on the right side of the back door area. Either way works pretty good. We found that carpeting the walls was a good thing, along with making a narrower "toy box" along the drivers side for all the promotional crap. One van we built up had a place on the side of the rack to stow the table used for remotes. Here's what we did for the techincal stuff. We bought a Astron 50 amp Rack-mount Astron power supply, the one with the "battery backup". Check SantaFe Distibuting co. The AC receptical goes on the back door inside the van. So does the speaker outs. We just used a metal box and a metal plate drilled for the 1/4inch jacks. For the radio we used a Pioneer Supertuner car stereo on a rack panel. Be sure to use some aluminum angle stock above and below where the metal gets thinner. We took a 1/4 wave NMO base from UHF (no gain with no coils) and put a low-band whip cut down to the specific FM channel we wanted and put that in the middle of the van on top. We used a 1,000 watt stereo amp mounted to the inner wall in the rack or a rack shelf. Either way worked. We used a 202Mhz Shure diversity microphone system remoting the antennas up on top of the van. We tried to put a 1/4 wave on one end and a gain antenna on another end so the take-off angle pattern would be different. The most trouble-free version of wireless mics for talent would be the one that's all in one piece because there's no wires for them hose up for you. We mounted the Marti transmitter on TOP of the rack with their spring clips they sell and just ran the coax out the back door. We also added an omni gain UHF antenna on the rooftop for mobile use just in case. We had a pair of Samco (Marti) UHF beams on a Radio Shack 35 Foot telescoping pole cut-down to fit that had a custom-made bracket on the back of the vehicle. On one newer Chevy we had to put it on the side. Regardless don't forget to back up the bracket on the outside with a plate on the inside for re-enforcement. The antenna and pole was removable because the bracket was halved with a all-thread deal holding it down normally could be removed allowing the bracket to open up. (great for car washes) One one van we used an Onan genset under the back area where the spare normally goes. It was one of those nice and quiet camping generators with the proper mounting bracket installed by them drawing off the main gas tank. The beauty of the way we did things was if the genset wouldnt fire they could just run off the van, starting the thing every so often. In your case you probably can't aford the genset so I'd just let the van run and let the GM eat the gas bill. When he gets tired of that he'll trade you a nice portable. LOL! Regardless you can plug in when you have power available and when you don't you can still do a remote. Good luck!
 
For the speakers we just used the PA speakers Radio Shaft sells. They are carpeted and work great, but are fairly easy to move around too. Also, if you can afford the SAMCO antennas you might consider some of the Larsen or something similar at SantaFe Distributing. Most of the are 450-470MHz if you are on UHF.
 
thanks for your input

i do have steel racks in storage, some too tall and some too small. but i beleive i should have at least 3 that will work. i probably need something no more than 20RUs depending on equipment. any preferance for wood racks?
 
We probably beat you on budget--but we got the van to haul stuff around in, not so much for remotes--$3500 for a '95 Chevy van--former telephone company truck. Plus a couple hundred for decals, and the sound system. Avoid wood--you will get leaks, a disaster in the making, especially for anything made of particle board. Sound shop originally mounted the radio and amp this way, went to a sheet of aluminum after the particle board gave way and everything went flying. Also get a radio that doesn't require a master's degree in electronics to figure out how to turn it on. Avoid these stupid removable face plates--they break off too easily.

We do a lot of parades around Christmas time. The van had brackets mounted to the top for ladders, so we hung small outdoor speakers (the kind with mylar cones that will take the rain--not PA horns). Powered by an ordinary car radio run into one of these "500 watt" (for 1 second at 200% distortion) amplifiers they sell at the audio sound shops, they are plenty loud for parades, or for most remote settings, for that matter, and have good fidelity. And they are permanently mounted--just turn the radio on and flip a switch for the amplifier.

PA mixers, PA speakers are fine for concerts or stage presentations if you do a lot of that. But you are better off just keeping them separate and leave room in the van to haul them. Whenever we needed something like that it was never where we could park the van and run anything out of it. Our former ops manager did dances and DJ work on the side--he had his own equipment in road cases and he just used the van and a dolly to bring the equipment to whatever show we were doing. Much more practical than a permanent installation.
 
What happened to trade?!?

Spend 2k and have a car stereo joint mount a 36 inch subwoofer in the back...lit up with some speakers around it...depends on your format, though I guess. Is this thing going to be at a lot of big concerts? But look into trading with a car stereo/audio place. You could stretch your dollar a lot further.
 
When the promotions department says "Sound System" it us usaully all inclusive.

I am with Tom on this. I have worked for many stations, big and small, some with lots of money and some on shoestrings. Before you buy anything, define what you want it to do. Do you want it to look and sound good in parades? do you need it for monitor at remotes? Is it a part of the promotional presentation mostly, or is it the workhorse headquarters for lots of live remotes? They usually keep the show ponys and work horses in different barns; the product of that marriage can be is ugly and the work horses end up hurting the ponies anyway.

No matter how well equipped a station van is, it usualluy sits outside while the broadcast happens somewhere where you could not drive it. Whatever you get, make sure it is versitile, movable and meets your mission. Get some good mic cords, a couple new SM 58's. Usually remoite money is better spent on that kind of stuff. Spend some of the money for the facilities to organize and keep the things you need when out. Dont make the mistake of spending every penny on the good stuff, and then it all ends up piled in the van loose and goes flying into the back of the seats when faced with a panic stop. You can stretch those bucks with some properly designed cargo stow away zones made up of Home Depot plastic bins and some inexpensive hold down technology designed and applied by you.

My personal choice for remotes is a well designed rack on wheels. Amp, codec(s) tuner headphone amp mixer all wired and ready to go. Plug in the speakers, phone line (or Marti feed) and power and you are done. Include a panel for aux audio feeds both in and out. Get a custom rack docking system in the van so it wont go anywhere unless you want it to. That is not expensive, it just takes some thought and planning by someone who has a concept of inertia and heavy duty hardware. The rack can sit there for anything you do out of the van. It rolls into the showroom at Figley Chrysler-Plymouth. Make it so there is not a bunch of plugging in and setting up wires. Systems that require a sound tech to plug in are an invitation to problems.

Installing "killah" sound systems in station vans is usually a waste. (unless its a showboat only) Like the other guys said, hi end radios will not take the hammering a remote/promo van needs to take. What else do you use this van for, Is the motor pool at your place limited? If it is, avoid the space hog sub boxes unless your goal is to be a pretty show pony. Invariably someone will try to cram a table for birthday bash into the thing because its a van for petes sake. HD is delayed so there is no use at all for live things unless the talent dials in and cans the shot. Again is you want to go and look pretty and the actual broadcast has nothing to do with the van, HD is fine, but for all practical purposes, it all sounds really good, (you take care of the analog quality after all) a good in dash radio, is the ticket for playing the station either in a parade or at an event. Interface one good amp to the car tuner...not one of those distortion machines at the car stereo shop, a good pro amp. 75 watts per channel with the right speakers will perform well. It will not rattle your dental work loose if that is your goal. If one time a year you need it to be really loud, but the other 51 weeks , do like others said and use the outdoor PA speakers. Rent a system when you need it for that annual summer bash. You would be foolish to overlook how the van is used most of the time and try to design a whole bunch of stuff around a unique and infrequent need. Engineering is largely solving problems with the appropriate resource. Don't over-do it. Make it pro and complete.

I have done lots of installations for stations. I am guessing that since your budget is 2k, that the level of expectation is not for an end all intallation, rather it is for some practical, useful equipment that does a job and makes the station look good. Get rid of the stereo shop installer concept and apply a need/use justification and elimination process on what you spend you 2K on. Even at 2K, it feels really good to give the staff a useful, thought out system that helps them accomplish their mission, is EASY to operate, and makes the station look and sound good. Whatever it is, it needs to appear effortless. Wires and complex set up of systems never travel well.

I like systems that rock too, but I want my team mates to have everything they need to be their best at their jobs. I would do them a disservice if I overlooked the headphone amp they need but we have an awesome sub box will rattle the metal plate in my head....but we never turn it up that loud on the job....only while the promo guy drives it over to the client.

Lastly, insist on accountability when the staff takes the stuff out. They need to understand its professional grade tools to do a professional job and care for the installation with that in mind.


Good Luck....feel free to drop me a line.

gz
 
If you have issues of people blowing up speakers, get a limiter and wire it permanently in before
the amps. Set it to allow maximum power before the onset of clipping and you'll never have to replace
another speaker again.

As for knobs, give your operators the bare minimum! When people have knobs, they turn them - often to the detriment of the sound, the equipment, or the technician's sanity and ability to stay asleep through the small hours.
They really only need two buttons - one to choose what they want to listen to, and the other to set how loud they need it. Anything else is a disaster waiting to happen.

As already mentioned, inverters running sound equipment will eat batteries - better arm yourself with a couple of truck batteries to keep it going!
 
For speakers, consider the Bose marine ones. You can put four pairs through the van sides and series/parallel them for 4 ohms, which car amps like. Put a big sub inside the truck. They're waterproof round and mount easily through thre tin with 'tinnerman' clips. Use a stereo pre, and assign the sides seperately. Then you can turn one or the other side down if the talent is backed agaonst the truck.
 
I have to concur about needing to know what they really expect from the van. In most cases being "cool" and having all the fancy mobile sound speakers in the van isn't the right answer. I know of a local station here in market 48 that traded 30k worth of system into a van which was neat, but ver impractical. After about 3 years of service they are looking to rip all of the broken stuff out and go back with a basic van. In contrast if they would have just got some good portable carpeted speakers and a large enough mobile amp with enough overhead to handle things without overheating or distortion issues they would have been much better off. Unless you need to blast audio, a bigger quality mobile amp will do the trick. One station I worked for was a classic rocker. We had a heritage rock station in town that generally liked to play nasty any time they could and liked to outblast our station regulary, uh.. that's until I showed up. :) We put a Crown Powertech 350 per channel amp in along with a switching system for the speakers (lot more complicated ac/dc switchover)and a DC amp for running off DC when AC was unavailable. It was very useful along with a set of Peavey SP2s at concerts, but for every place else it was pretty much overkill. Along with the big-assed Crown amp I had a graphic EQ which really drove my competitior nuts because I had the horsepower AND a way to EQ to the speakers and enviroment. I'll never forget the time a highrise hotel in downtown asked me politely to power down a bit because I was RATTLING their windows several stories up. LOL!The promtions guys at the other station eventually gave up on engaging in stereo wars with me and we all starting running the same CD of the artist playing which was better choice for the audience anyway. Ahhh! The fun days of when radio actually still mattered.
 
hey thanks all for your inputs.

i was a promo tech for 6 years till i got in engineerng 4 years ago and i know everything there is about what a promo tech guy feels and what he or she wants to do at a remote. usually nothing....or i want to blow the competition out of the dealership.

as for what the "sound system" purpose is for just monitoring. i know they promo guys want everything from live shows on the road, parading downtown houston, to blasting the competitions ears off but they just dont know the difference of what they need and what they can afford. its like a teenager "just got my DL and going to a buy a new car" and a salesman just hit the jackpot, cause this teen guy cant afford whats been signed on a contract or knows that they got a "great" deal.

i already said what they need are wireless ip codecs instead of this crap. but hey, they wont do remotes on martis since the cell phone as they say "sounds as good" LOL. lets leave this alone..............im not giving up on broadcast quality remotes but its not my money, its theirs. i give them advice and even put a things to backup my advice, even briinging in demos of Tielines, Access, and other codecs......

as for portable systems, their is our very strict code of "must be able to lift 45lbs" and do our HR stick with it. Anything i build is over. I have to break up the portables to 2 or even 3 parts. then hopefully the poor promo tech guy can put it together. i know how to build them like a tank but the days of heaving big sound into vans is over...back when i was in promo, my favorite sound case was 85 lbs and we did solo setups, no help, no assistants,, nada,, everything from tent, banners, sound,,balloons..prizes and games were done by one promo tech,,and so far to us, we still do, even the girls


as for outside speakers, anything mounted is going to knock off, if these guys can folds the side mirrors, then well...you know. i looked into doing another side flush mount but i also remember its problems...plus its not within the budget.

we dont do trade no more, its all about the mula. no free spots. plus trade with stereo shops are pieces of crap equipment they installed and start claiming its tens of thousands which is like a one thousand dollar job...screw that.

well this budget is not what we really work with but our company Univision is really squeezing the nuts, its what i got to work with and its nots the first time building a system, its probably the 30th already for me but the van installation is not something im looking into with any hope of something that will last a few years.

hey again thanks for your comments
 
How about a couple of the JBL EON series powered speakers so you don't have to use an external amplifier? All you would need is to run a balanced XLR out of the mixer to each speaker, no amp needed.
 
I've seen small Bose speakers--the ones we use are probably about the same size (don't remember who made them)--about the size of a small book shelf speaker. Ever see the little black metal bookshelf speakers Radio Shack used to sell? A little bigger than that. Even with a cheap audio store boost amp they can be cranked up loud enough to be a nuisance.

As I mentioned, we have an old C&P telephone truck, with the roof brackets for ladders. We attached the speakers on to these angles & they've survived quite well up there. Again, biggest plus is that there is nothing to hook up or fuss with. Just turn the radio on and a second switch that supplies power to the boost amp.
 
In the cinema industry the saying is ... "No Highs, No Lows, It must be BOES!!!" They really make awful speakers, and no one I know that knows what they are doing uses them in any kind of professional situation. (I am not knocking anyone here who suggested them, I am speaking strictly of the cinema industry which demands much more from a speaker system than radio) The dynamic range and power requirements for a movie theatre are much different than what your needs are though so they would probably be fine, I would still go with the JBL EON though.
 
That's why I suggested a sub in the truck. They rock out nice that way, and it keeps things cheap. The last big speakers I hung in an air studio were JBLs, 130somethings... Softhearted John vetoed the LaScalas I was planning for. Now we use nearfields with limpet amps. Regression, I think, but from the operator's position they sound real good.
However, this gent is looking to build a remote outdoor van for cheap, and ther Bose stuff withstands the weather.
And for theater service, the old Altec Voice of the Theater, the big ones with thirty inch bass driver and the sand filled cabinet is capoable of incredible sound even today, although most auditoriums are too little to use them. If you're a theater buff, hit Atlanta and go down to The Fox and catch their historic series. Many are sourced on 70mm prints and shown on a real projector with an arc behind the film. Urinate on the slop in the mall cineplax 30 screen.
 
LOL :) Beleive me I am no fan of what movie theatres have become especially the push for the inferior D-Cinema systems. If I am ever in Atlanta I will make sure to check out the Fox, thanks for the heads up! I have run into quite a few of those "Voice of the theatre" speakers and they are certainly something else! I know of theatres that still run them to this day! My opinion is probably biased too as the theatre industry tends to favor JBL speaker systems. Some people like the horn loaded Klipsch speaker systems as well. You wouldn't beleive what some theatres get away with though. The nice ones are usually Bi or Tri amped with appropriate size speaker systems, and more than enough amplifier power, the dumps though can be downright comical! I have seen mono systems with one Radio Shack "Realistic" speaker behind the screen! You really wouldn't even beleive half of the garbage I have seen if I told you! Whats wrong with the 30 plexes though? They have the kid that was selling popcorn and soda yesterday up there today after completing the "Training Program" but don't forget he's not a projectionist hes an usher who has to run all 30 screens and help clean theatres too. If he was a projectionist he might join a union! :p
 
NSPUNX said:
I have seen mono systems with one Radio Shack "Realistic" speaker behind the screen! You really wouldn't even believe half of the garbage I have seen if I told you!
Click to expand...

Ahhh....I see you've visited the RKO Coliseum on 181st Street in Manhattan.... ;D
 
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