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SPACING BETWEEN FM STATIONS

DavidEduardo said:
rbrucecarter5 said:
Making sure minorities control the airwaves.

Wow. Please elaborate.

I'd be glad to. I do not believe artificially increasing minority ownership automatically equates with using the airwaves in the public interest. Let the free market decide what formats will be aired. We as a country moved beyond the race issue decades ago - it is a dead issue now for the most part.
 
rbrucecarter5 said:
Thank you for allowing me to win the debate. How you ask? Debate 101 - if you attack or insult your opponent, they win by default. So - I win! You lose. I guess HD radio is indefensible for you to resort to such desperate tactics.

I'm not debating you. I have no desire to get sucked into that never-ending foolishness with the anti-IBOC guys. I'm just pointing out that making ridiculous claims against the Commission and borderline racist statements does nothing to help you win in the court of public opinion.

rbrucecarter5 said:
By the way, because I am a Christian believer, any insult or curse you hurl my way automatically returns on you. I am protected by the blood of Christ from such things. So think twice before you mess with one of Christ's followers. You cannot win.

Well, you're doing a bang-up job of representing us here. Want to show me how this is biblical? You're protected by the blood of Christ from going to hell if you're a believer. You're not protected against people setting you straight on a chat board if you're leveling false and slanderous allegations. Please don't drag Christ into your anti-IBOC dogma.

But since you are a brother in Christ, you should check out Exodus 20:16 before you accuse the Commission of taking bribes.
 
rbrucecarter5 said:
I'd be glad to. I do not believe artificially increasing minority ownership automatically equates with using the airwaves in the public interest. Let the free market decide what formats will be aired. We as a country moved beyond the race issue decades ago - it is a dead issue now for the most part.

While it may not be a majority, a substantial number of minority-owned stations aired (and still air) mainstream formats. Besides, many of them that arose from Docket 80-90 have long since been absorbed by larger broadcasters. There were also companies like US Radio, which was absorbed by CC in '96, that were minority-owned but ran few minority-focused stations. US Radio, by the way, ran smooth jazz, an unsuccessful talk format, and Z-Rock in Houston over the course of several years at 106.9. They also bought 103.3 when it was religious and kept the format. US Radio and companies like it had few Docket 80-90 stations, built their companies up and sold when the price was high. In other words, the market has always done a pretty good job of deciding what formats would air.

In Houston, for example, Radio One is running an all news format on 92.1. That's a minority-owned company running a format definitely not targeting exclusively minorities. Their KBXX 97.9 also gets a sizable white audience. It has one of the most diverse listening audiences in the market! There's also the reverse: Univision is not Hispanic-owned but commands most of the Spanish dominant audience. The stations that are programmed solely on ideology are mostly AM's that wouldn't make money doing anything else, and many don't make money anyway.
 
OldChicago said:
Perhaps this is not the perfect group to ask this in, but I know that there
are lost of frequency planning experts on ere.

I heard that in Mexico, they were talking about having just 400-kh'z spacing between stations in the same area. Did this ever happen? Could they try this here in the USA.

Old Chicago

Canada now uses 600KHz spacing in several markets. 400KHz is permissible if one of the stations is low-powered. (for that matter, 400KHz is allowed in the U.S. if one of the stations is a translator. We have a 90.7 translator in Nashville stuffed between full-power stations a mile or so away on 90.3, and about five miles away on 91.1.)

How well 400KHz works depends on the quality of the receiver.. I would suggest car radios would have little or no trouble with it. Many "personal stereos" & other cheap radios might not behave quite so well.

I suspect you'd find that allowing co-location of 2nd-adjacents wouldn't create as many new-station opportunities as you might think. Computerized analysis has resulted in stations being jammed in anywhere they'll fit -- 102.5 might no longer be precluded by 102.1/102.9, but co-channel 102.5 operations might make the channel unavailable.
 
rbrucecarter5 said:
I'd be glad to. I do not believe artificially increasing minority ownership automatically equates with using the airwaves in the public interest. Let the free market decide what formats will be aired. We as a country moved beyond the race issue decades ago - it is a dead issue now for the most part.

As Kent stated, minority ownership does not always mean minority targeted program formats. Ultimately, format decisions are based on market needs, and when they are not so based, they fail no matter who the target supposedly is / was.

As to ownership, the FCC policies, going back to the Minority Tax Certificate, were intended to correct past failures of "the system" to provide the means by which minority class members could acquire broadcast facilities. The intent was simply to tilt the ownership playing field so that both buyers and sellers would benefit in such situations, with the hoped-for result that this important sector would better represent the make-up of the population.

The existence of such programs shows the flexibility of the American system, which is not only able to correct inequitable situations but also to admit that the prior situation was wrong. How many other nations in the world are able to self regulate the moral backbone of the country without instead becoming Syria or Lybia or Venezuela or Cuba or Myanmar?
 
rbrucecarter5 said:
Robustness on HD FM - I have done a careful survey 70 miles from the Dallas towers with a dipole held at one meter off of the ground. All Dallas HD FMs locked. I'd call that robust enough for just about any purpose, especially since my listening site was a rural area surrounded by ranches and livestock. Not much audience potential when houses are spaced a mile or more apart. Another observer has done tests 84 miles from the Houston towers and reported reliable HD lock with a dipole at ceiling level.

Using the DFW/IAH areas for proof of HD "robustness" is probably short-changing the vast majority of us who live in places that are not billiard-table flat.
 
rbrucecarter5 said:
radiogooroo said:
HD will be in 140+ models of new cars by the end of 2013.

It's not "flopped." It's just beginning.

Suggesting the Commission is taking bribes is ridiculous.

And YES, I'll accuse the FCC of taking bribes. Any time - to their face. Bribes don't have to be money, they can be suggestions of political favor if you support one digital system over another. There were competing systems, that were technically much better. Why did we end up with iBiquity? Because Clear Channel is big and powerful. If they didn't bribe their defective system into law, they sure applied high pressure to the right people in high places to get it enacted. Something is really wrong when a critically flawed system like iBiquity ends up being adopted. I'd love to find out exactly how it happened, and blow the whistle on it - because it is the American public who is now stuck with a defective system that has poor robustness, and splatters all over adjacent frequencies. On the AM side, it doesn't work at night unless you are on top of the tower. And it splatters on not just first adjacents, but second adjacents as well. There were some real programming options on some of those second adjacents - so I even suspect some broadcasters are intentionally jamming competitors with HD. There have been some complaints by broadcasters to that effect. Corruption, incompetence, and money often go together. I wish I had proof, but I don't.

We needed a robust, low cost, low power system that had the potential to really revolutionize the dial. It should have been enacted on a new band, with existing broadcasters given spectrum there. With careful selection of the system and the new frequency band, we could right now have fully digital three band receivers in cars, with extremely good coverage, interfering with nobody, allocations done intelligently instead of the current state of both AM and FM bands. Consumers would more readily adopt it because it would actually WORK when they tried it out intead of drop out and not lock like iBiquity. The best case scenario - the FCC didn't know what the heck they were signing off on - they trusted iBiquity, who did bad engineering and inadequate testing on the system. When and if they discovered problems - instead of going back to the lab and re-designing until the problems were solved, they covered them up, glossed them over, misrepresented facts to fit their cherished assumptions - the essence of bad science and bad engineering. A little example is when they said the GE Superadio 3 is not a broadband receiver, then published an IF bandwidth spec for wideband that clearly matched the narrow setting of the bandwidth switch. They further said that all radios are narrowband, when the old tired "3 IF can" reference design had not been manufactured in 20 years. All new AM sections now consist of an IC and one really sloppy wideband ceramic filter. Little misrepresentation of facts like that all through their published material completely erases their credibility with serious engineers such as myself. And cries out of cover up after cover up of engineering blunders and deficiencies, sloppy test techniques, tests designed specifically to make their system look good. Take your choice: bad engineering, cover ups, money, influence peddling. The big losers - the American public, iBiquity's investors who are going to take a financial hit, and ultimately broadcasters who did not get the digital upgrade they deserved.

Exposing ATSC's adoption might be more compelling, but in the same vein as HD. Who knows, you might expose both?
 
landtuna said:
Using the DFW/IAH areas for proof of HD "robustness" is probably short-changing the vast majority of us who live in places that are not billiard-table flat.

I have long suggested to Bruce that his near-perfect propagation conditions (not just class C FMs over billiard-table flat terrain, but also exceptional ground conductivity for AM) aren't even remotely representative of what most radio listeners in the US have to contend with. (And I think he's even acknowledged as much, from time to time...)
 
rbrucecarter5 said:
radiogooroo said:
HD will be in 140+ models of new cars by the end of 2013.

It's not "flopped." It's just beginning.

Suggesting the Commission is taking bribes is ridiculous.

Do consumers even know it is there? Do auto dealers? Last time I checked, they did not. They either think it is satellite radio or give you a blank stare. Same thing as AM stereo. Most people didn't even know it was in the car. Given a choice, they will select satellite, pandora, bluetooth, auxilary, DVD, MP3, USB, iPod interfaces over HD. It may be in 140 models of car as a option - that doesn't mean its actually available in dealerships, nor does it mean the dealer has ordered vehicles with it installed for their inventory. They go with more popular options.

My dad bought a new car in 2010 a Toyota Avalon, comes with XM and and 3.5 jack for an IPOD, plus a USB port for Thumb Drives. He used to use thumb drives loaded with a couple of CDs, now mainly uses the XM.
 
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