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Speakers Z matching

SFM-Ptgal said:
What I find strange is that the Stereo 80 runned with 2 different pc speakers (the passives from each set) and the console didn't complaint (8 ohm)...

Most speakers, especially cheap ones, have an impedance curve that is all over the place, depending on frequency. As I mentioned earlier, the lowest impedance is usually at its resonant point - generally below 125 Hz. Above that the impedance usually rises, maybe as high as 30-40 ohms. On average, it may have presented a 15-20 ohm load,except at some bass frequencies. That's probably why it worked OK.
 
The discussion about loudspeakers is very similar to processors ;) Each loudspeaker has their own sound so the preferences will be quite subjective.

I have a friend with a production studio who bought the Mackies HR824 on MY suggestion. I listened to them at the local hi-fi show and thought they sounded very good and open. But he never really liked them for professional work he does. While they are good as a hi-fi speakers and for music such as jazz and classical, he could not mix good on those and went to Genelecs 8050s with the sub.

Genelecs don't like to call their products speakers - rather monitors. And that's what they are. They might appear "cold" to some, but they are designed to tell the truth and be as transparent as possible. In a production and broadcast studios (which is their primary market) that's what you want.

The mentioned friend also tested for a few weeks the big PMCs with the Bryston amplification. Again, these speakers have their advantages, but he didn't like them better than Genelecs. There are other manufactures to be mentioned for example Adam Audio with their ribbon twitter philosophy or Klein & Hummel. I personally like Dynaudio Professional as well. Each have their own sound and I'm sure lots of followers.

But there's a reason everybody knows Genelec... What I particularly like about them is the serious R&D and innovation that goes into their products. From things like Iso-Pod absorber and positioner (reminds me of something Steve Jobs and Apple would design) to unique innovations such as directivity control waveguide and minimum diffraction enclosure. They've practically invented the professional active speaker with all the benefits of active crossovers, optimized amplifiers for each driver with direct control, protection and other things some already mentioned in this thread. That's on one side.

The other is the build quality. Unlike many other products on the market today, Genelecs are designed to last. They don't believe in designing a product that will fall apart in a few years and will need to be replaced with a new model, thus generating cash. They believe in making a product that will last for decades. And contrary to the popular belief that this is not commercially viable, they have been extremely successful and profitable with that philosophy thus far, even in the recession.

Their speakers are hand made. Each part is tested and measured several times during production and no speaker leaves the factory without being fully tested and calibrated so that it meets the strict standards. Do you know which other loudspeaker manufacturer does this? Most are not even burnt in...

Their 8000 series with die-cast aluminum enclosure is completely air-tight sealed to prevent unwanted resonances - complete speaker is tested with several bars of air pressure applied to bass reflex port to make sure it leaks no air on the joints. Some of their drivers (ie, the new mid-high coaxial driver for the latest 8260) is hand made in the factory as no driver manufacturer could produce the driver that would meet the specification they wanted. That speaker recently won a TEC award.

Finally, the company has strong ecological values. From the environmentally sustainable manufacturing process itself, to design goal that the products need to be almost completely recyclable.

Now compare that to Behringer...


Regards,
Goran Tomas
 
Goran Tomas said:
Now compare that to Behringer...

Regards,
Goran Tomas

I don't believe that they are in the same league, especially when you compare price tags. The Genelecs hover around $2200 while the most expensive Behringer's seem to be about $400 for a pair. There are reasons why some speakers cost more than others. If you are doing serious recordings or mastering work, you'd be silly to rely on the Behringers. For that job, my personal preference might lean toward Meyer (also expensive) but the Genelecs would certainly be on my list of speakers to seriously consider.

But I thought we were talking about inexpensive speakers that our friend wanted to connect to a broadcast console in his spare bedroom. If he can afford Genelecs, then more power to him. I believe the passive Behringer speaker he wants to use have a street price around $80.00 US for a pair. That's a very long way from the Genelecs.

For most broadcast use, you are more interested in "Are we on the air?" than you are in using them for extremely critical listening. That’s often referred to as "confidence monitoring," which is more a check of things working properly and that you aren't playing two sources at the same time, not broadcasting a hum or other noise, etc. That is an entirely different discipline than critical recording. Even day to day broadcast production usually involves editing audio sources that the editor has little or no control over. These days, most production work is done on a desktop computer, often with just average computer speakers. Any upgrade is an improvement. How much of an upgrade you can get, largely depends on your budget.


I'd also venture that the amplifier in the old Gates console is only capable of 10 watts or so, probably at about 5% distortion. That makes a good argument for bypassing it entirely and using some modern powered speakers. They will sound better and cause less listener fatigue. If you have an aversion to Behringer, M -Audio makes some modestly priced powered speakers, as do several other companies.
 
Believe me, if I could I would go for Genelec's, I have them at the station, I know how they sound and how they handle abuses. At the moment I don't have any speaker connected to the console. Something is better than nothing. I'm using headphones for monitoring.
For the setup I'm also willing to buy one of these: http://www.thomann.de/pt/millenium_ma2050_tischmikrofonarm.htm and these http://www.thomann.de/pt/the_tbone_gm55_elvis_mikro.htm (for the look). To finish... cover the walls with this http://www.owa.de/pics/dessins/unregelmaesig_gelocht.jpg . It would look like a true vintage studio ;D

If you're curious here's a video from the station where I work: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ShBI7rYY0bQ please tell me what you think ;D
 
SFM-Ptgal said:
Believe me, if I could I would go for Genelec's,

Oh, I do. If money were no object, I'd do a lot of things differently. When I signed my FM station on the air about 8 1/2 years ago, the idea was to bring something different to the area, and not go broke in the process. I did things very modestly, since there were no guaranties of success.

As the station has grown, I’ve added a lot of equipment, but if something worked well, I saw no reason to change simply for changes sake. We were still on a budget. Now, we have three studios, but all the speakers are similar Behringers. I could probably afford more expensive monitors, but no one who uses them has complained about the ones I have. In fact, a lot of air talent has commented on how good they sounded. They honestly, don't sound bad, and each studio sounds similar.

These days, I probably could afford something more exotic, but the bottom line is I don't see how that would make more money for the station. There is little or no return on investment for upgrading. When I visit other stations in my area, I'm amazed at what mediocre equipment most have. Even some of the top rated stations in the market use speakers that I would find embarrassing. That is a reality of radio, at least in the USA.
 
Well, let's put this in a pratical way... Those who worked/engineered with the that kind of consoles (there must be someone alive... sorry, didn't resist...) in their days, "how did you did it'" about the loudspeaker connections and the touchy console's amp...

Meanwhile thank you all for the previous answers...
 
SFM-Ptgal said:
Well, let's put this in a pratical way... Those who worked/engineered with the that kind of consoles (there must be someone alive... sorry, didn't resist...) in their days, "how did you did it'" about the loudspeaker connections and the touchy console's amp...

Meanwhile thank you all for the previous answers...

We who were alive back then (ahem!) were not averse to using external amps driven directly from the console's volume control (and low-level relay-muted). Phase Linear made some good solid state power amps in the early-mid 70s. There was also Dynaco, which sounded pretty decent (not as good as Phase Linear, to my ears, anyway).
And of course you still had a lot of tube amps too: McIntosh, and others of lower quality.

But, brand loyalties aside, the main factor was/is that getting away from the internal amp solved a LOT of problems.

Kind Regards,
David
 
SFM-Ptgal said:
Well, let's put this in a pratical way... Those who worked/engineered with the that kind of consoles (there must be someone alive... sorry, didn't resist...) in their days, "how did you did it'" about the loudspeaker connections and the touchy console's amp...

Meanwhile thank you all for the previous answers...

I worked at several stations in the 1960's, most of which had Gates President consoles. Most of them used an EV Sentry 1 monitor speaker. http://www.pa-anlagen.ch/Manuals/Electro_Voice/Speakers/EDS/Sentry IA & IIA.pdf It was eight ohms and extremely efficient. In fact, it was only rated at 20 watts. A watt or two would blow you out of the room, so the internal amp in the board worked OK.

One TV station I worked at had a Sentry One in the studio for a playback speaker. This allowed guest performers to hear prerecorded audio so they could lip-sync for their "live" guest performances. Unfortunately, it was powered by a McMartin solid state amp. I think the amp was rated at 25 watts. On peaks, it would routinely blow a fuse, usually about 2/3 of the way through a song on a live (not videotaped) show. This was a real problem. We kept a box of fuses next to it. The good news was the fuse holder was on the front and easily accessible.

The cure was replacing that amplifier with a Dynaco tube type mono amp, which I think was rated at 35 watts. That worked OK, at least sort of, but we were always worried we'd blow up the speaker. The final cure was the station went off the air due to low viewership.

Times were a lot different back then. In the early 1970's a 100 watt per channel amplifier was considered pretty big. Even the touring concert sound business used amplifiers that we'd consider ridiculously small by today's standards. A real breakthrough was the Crown DC-300 which could put out a screaming 155 watts at 8 ohms. With really good external cooling it could handle a 4 ohm load and make a "massive" 300 watts. My, how things have changed...
 
Chuck said:
SFM-Ptgal said:
Well, let's put this in a pratical way... Those who worked/engineered with the that kind of consoles (there must be someone alive... sorry, didn't resist...) in their days, "how did you did it'" about the loudspeaker connections and the touchy console's amp...

Meanwhile thank you all for the previous answers...

I worked at several stations in the 1960's, most of which had Gates President consoles. Most of them used an EV Sentry 1 monitor speaker. http://www.pa-anlagen.ch/Manuals/Electro_Voice/Speakers/EDS/Sentry IA & IIA.pdf It was eight ohms and extremely efficient. In fact, it was only rated at 20 watts. A watt or two would blow you out of the room, so the internal amp in the board worked OK.

One TV station I worked at had a Sentry One in the studio for a playback speaker. This allowed guest performers to hear prerecorded audio so they could lip-sync for their "live" guest performances. Unfortunately, it was powered by a McMartin solid state amp. I think the amp was rated at 25 watts. On peaks, it would routinely blow a fuse, usually about 2/3 of the way through a song on a live (not videotaped) show. This was a real problem. We kept a box of fuses next to it. The good news was the fuse holder was on the front and easily accessible.

The cure was replacing that amplifier with a Dynaco tube type mono amp, which I think was rated at 35 watts. That worked OK, at least sort of, but we were always worried we'd blow up the speaker. The final cure was the station went off the air due to low viewership.

Times were a lot different back then. In the early 1970's a 100 watt per channel amplifier was considered pretty big. Even the touring concert sound business used amplifiers that we'd consider ridiculously small by today's standards. A real breakthrough was the Crown DC-300 which could put out a screaming 155 watts at 8 ohms. With really good external cooling it could handle a 4 ohm load and make a "massive" 300 watts. My, how things have changed...

The TV station I work for STILL uses Sentry 1's for in-studio monitoring. At least we're feeding them with a Crown 60. ;D

I remember at college a new BE console kept burning up the internal monitor amp...turned out it was oscillating because of the capacitance of the 8541 being used as speaker wire. Some zip-cord took care of that issue.
 
grich said:
Chuck said:
SFM-Ptgal said:
Well, let's put this in a pratical way... Those who worked/engineered with the that kind of consoles (there must be someone alive... sorry, didn't resist...) in their days, "how did you did it'" about the loudspeaker connections and the touchy console's amp...

Meanwhile thank you all for the previous answers...

I worked at several stations in the 1960's, most of which had Gates President consoles. Most of them used an EV Sentry 1 monitor speaker. http://www.pa-anlagen.ch/Manuals/Electro_Voice/Speakers/EDS/Sentry IA & IIA.pdf It was eight ohms and extremely efficient. In fact, it was only rated at 20 watts. A watt or two would blow you out of the room, so the internal amp in the board worked OK.

One TV station I worked at had a Sentry One in the studio for a playback speaker. This allowed guest performers to hear prerecorded audio so they could lip-sync for their "live" guest performances. Unfortunately, it was powered by a McMartin solid state amp. I think the amp was rated at 25 watts. On peaks, it would routinely blow a fuse, usually about 2/3 of the way through a song on a live (not videotaped) show. This was a real problem. We kept a box of fuses next to it. The good news was the fuse holder was on the front and easily accessible.

The cure was replacing that amplifier with a Dynaco tube type mono amp, which I think was rated at 35 watts. That worked OK, at least sort of, but we were always worried we'd blow up the speaker. The final cure was the station went off the air due to low viewership.

Times were a lot different back then. In the early 1970's a 100 watt per channel amplifier was considered pretty big. Even the touring concert sound business used amplifiers that we'd consider ridiculously small by today's standards. A real breakthrough was the Crown DC-300 which could put out a screaming 155 watts at 8 ohms. With really good external cooling it could handle a 4 ohm load and make a "massive" 300 watts. My, how things have changed...

The TV station I work for STILL uses Sentry 1's for in-studio monitoring. At least we're feeding them with a Crown 60. ;D

I remember at college a new BE console kept burning up the internal monitor amp...turned out it was oscillating because of the capacitance of the 8541 being used as speaker wire. Some zip-cord took care of that issue.

A major pet peeve is seeing signal wire used between the amp and speaker. Amps don't like that.
 
I am pleased that someone brought up the Sentry 1 speakers. When I "graduated" to big time radio from mom and pop radio in the 60's and 70's most of the stations I worked at had Sentry 1's. And of course this was AM but they still sounded great!

I purchased a set of Sentry 3 floor speakers back then that I still have in my home stereo setup. In the studio I have a pair of big old school Kenwood 3 ways driven by a McIntosh MC2105 amp, only because there is no room for the big Sentry 3's!
 
In my control rooms I take care of, we use JBL 4311b monitors powered by McIntosh MC 2105 power amps. Genelecs are available when desired.
 
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