Spoiled by FM HD

[Len14043]

The other day I was listening to one of my favorate HD stations and noticed pops and crackels in the signal. I immediately noticed that the HD light was not illuminated. I called the station and was told they were making minor adjustments. The station was back in HD after a few minutes. To make a long story short, I missed the HD!
I challenge those who say that you cannot tell the difference between FM analog and digital. For the fun of it, I used the scan button while driving and didn't look at the dial. I correctly identified the status of the signal every time. While I acknowledge that identifying the status of the signal may be more challenging if the vehicle was stopped and the signal was not subjected to variations, this illustrates the point that HD effectively removes multipath, static and pops.

 

[700WLW]

The other day I was listening to one of my favorate HD stations and noticed pops and crackels in the signal. I immediately noticed that the HD light was not illuminated. I called the station and was told they were making minor adjustments. The station was back in HD after a few minutes. To make a long story short, I missed the HD!
I challenge those who say that you cannot tell the difference between FM analog and digital. For the fun of it, I used the scan button while driving and didn't look at the dial. I correctly identified the status of the signal every time. While I acknowledge that identifying the status of the signal may be more challenging if the vehicle was stopped and the signal was not subjected to variations, this illustrates the point that HD effectively removes multipath, static and pops.

I never, get pops, multipath, static, or loss of coverage on FM - listening to CDs, versus FM, there is no difference, and consumers do not care enough about any supposed improvements in audio quality, to buy into this destructive and fraudulent technology:

http://www.google.com/trends?q="hd+radio",+"internet+radio",+sirius,+xm,+podcast

This, HD Radio commercial, brought to you by...

 

[SUPERCASTER]

The other day I was listening to one of my favorate HD stations and noticed pops and crackels in the signal. I immediately noticed that the HD light was not illuminated. I called the station and was told they were making minor adjustments. The station was back in HD after a few minutes. To make a long story short, I missed the HD!
I challenge those who say that you cannot tell the difference between FM analog and digital. For the fun of it, I used the scan button while driving and didn't look at the dial. I correctly identified the status of the signal every time. While I acknowledge that identifying the status of the signal may be more challenging if the vehicle was stopped and the signal was not subjected to variations, this illustrates the point that HD effectively removes multipath, static and pops.

So does "squelch" and exactly the same way as HD radio.
In the secondary coverage area, where an FM station's analog signal is weakest, and subject to interference, the HD signal has long since disappeared. No improvement, at all.
HD radio is a defective, short range, expensive, solution to a problem virtually no one has.

Since before Thanksgiving, my local Radio Shack has been trying to get their Accurian HD radios to work, without any success. If Radio Shack, with all their corporate resources, personnel, antennas and RF Amplifiers right at hand can't get it to work, on HD AM or FM, I just can't see the average consumer bothering with HD Radio. Even with all their equipment turned off, there is no HD reception inside a typical single story masonry building, within plain sight of the antenna farm's broadcasting towers!
HD radio is DOA.

 

[Mike Walker]

In answer to Supercaster's claim that HD is only short range, I post again a link to FM HD from EIGHTY MILES using an indoor antenna http://www.theproductionroom.net/hd.m3u

If that's spotty coverage, I'll take it.

And if 700 thinks fm sounds like cds, then that makes one of him! No effort should be spent countering that brilliant argument. It speaks for itself.

Those of us who listen to fm hd become more addicted to the stunning sound quality with each passing day. And when we post our findings, we're repeatedly told that either a)-nobody can tell the difference, b)-nobody cares, or c)-it doesn't work.

WE listen. WE care. And as for whether it works, read the experiences of people who actually use the technology. Or listen to my recording posted above. Duh!

 

[amfmsw]

You may get HD 80 miles with a full 100kw Class C on flat terrain with the wind at your back on the 100th floor of a skyscraper, or in New England on a clean, daytime clear channel signal like WABC 770Kc. But most every coverage map from the stations and manufacturers clearly show a small coverage area compared to analog. The IBOC is only at partial power of the total licensed signal. I think it's safe to say that HD, until they kill the analog and go full digital modulation and power, 80 miles is the extreme exception.

 

[SUPERCASTER]

Judging by the substantial number of complaints from stores, buyers and the many returns of HD radios for poor reception, I believe Mike's reliable 80 mile reception of HD FM with an indoor antenna is highly unusual.

 

[Mike Walker]

Look at a topo map for Northwest North Carolina. I'm in Wilkes County...foothills of the Blue Ridge Mountains. Mount Mitchell here in North Carolina is the highest point east of the Mississippi. Not exactly flat terrain!

Patience in antenna placement has a LOT to do with success. You can't just let a dipole hang behind the equipment rack the way people have done for years and expect much of anything, except in a major metro area. But if you buy a long extension cable, and move your antenna around, you may well be amazed at how far HD goes.

Now I have no car HD, so I can't comment at all on how that would work around here. It may be as useful as a "screen door on a submarine". I have no idea! Also there's no AM HD listed in North Carolina. An engineer friend told me that a station in a small town somewhere around Charlotte was HD, but I don't remember where, and again...they're not shown on any list. I'm not sure there are lots of returns of HD radios, but if there are I can tell you why...salespeople are stupid. Forget for a moment how you feel about HD Radio. How long has it been since you found ANYONE competent or knowledgable in an audio store?

I grew up in an era when most communities with a population of over 50,000 had at least one great audio store. Stereo Sound in Winston Salem (also Chapel Hill and several other locations in NC) was a MARVELOUS PLACE! Friendly, knowledgable salespeople, great equipment in all price ranges, installation and alignment of phono cartridges, and hell...they even took tradeins! Thank God, their used rack made it possible for a young, DIRT POOR audio nerd (me) to put together some really nice gear!

Highland Audio in Boone, NC was another GREAT store. Where are they now? (Actually Stereo Sound is now "Tweeter").

 

[700WLW]

Judging by the substantial number of complaints from stores, buyers and the many returns of HD radios for poor reception, I believe Mike's reliable 80 mile reception of HD FM with an indoor antenna is highly unusual.

I certainly, don't believe a word he says, anymore; especially, that he doesn't believe that the broadcast industry is banking on HD Radio, as its big savior, even though, it is spending $500,000,000 to promote this defective and destructive technology (let's see, his words were, something to the effect, that HD Radio is just to improve the listener experience).

 

[hipporadio]

Look at a topo map for Northwest North Carolina. I'm in Wilkes County...foothills of the Blue Ridge Mountains. Mount Mitchell here in North Carolina is the highest point east of the Mississippi. Not exactly flat terrain!

And don't forget Grandfather Mountain south of Boone... That's one hell of a hunk of rock!

I grew up in an era when most communities with a population of over 50,000 had at least one great audio store. Stereo Sound in Winston Salem (also Chapel Hill and several other locations in NC) was a MARVELOUS PLACE!

YES it certainly was! I visited one in the Triad in 1987... THEY became... Tweeter *#%@*??

Highland Audio in Boone, NC was another GREAT store.

Another great "Blast from the past"! I had one of the best three days of my life in Boone back in Fall '90... Please don't ask for details

 

[SUPERCASTER]

Mike said:

Patience in antenna placement has a LOT to do with success. You can't just let a dipole hang behind the equipment rack the way people have done for years and expect much of anything, except in a major metro area. But if you buy a long extension cable, and move your antenna around, you may well be amazed at how far HD goes.

Do you really believe the typical consumer is going to go to all that additional trouble and expense just to pick up digital duplicates of what they already get perfectly well from the same AM and FM stations, plus a few HD2 streams that are just "iPod shuffles" of music that they might not be interested in hearing?
What about frequent format flips?
Some of the HD2's have already flipped formats. I should buy an HD radio and fool around with external antennas just to get an HD2 format that may disappear, and certainly will become commercialized.
So you are delighted beyond wildest belief with your HD Radio. That makes 1 down, only 800 million radios to go.

 

[700WLW]

Mike said:

Patience in antenna placement has a LOT to do with success. You can't just let a dipole hang behind the equipment rack the way people have done for years and expect much of anything, except in a major metro area. But if you buy a long extension cable, and move your antenna around, you may well be amazed at how far HD goes.

Do you really believe the typical consumer is going to go to all that additional trouble and expense just to pick up digital duplicates of what they already get perfectly well from the same AM and FM stations, plus a few HD2 streams that are just "iPod shuffles" of music that they might not be interested in hearing?
What about frequent format flips?
Some of the HD2's have already flipped formats. I should buy an HD radio and fool around with external antennas just to get an HD2 format that may disappear, and certainly will become commercialized.
So you are delighted beyond wildest belief with HD Radio. That makes 1 down, only 800 million radios to go.

Don't forget, the estimated 80 - 100 million analog radios, that continue to be sold every year.

 

[Sgeirk]

People will buy HD radios only when it's time to buy a new radio. We need to give them reasons and give them better programming on our main air channels...not even more boring side-channels.

FM HD sounds sounds pretty darn good, I gotta say, and I have golden, I mean golden ears. The stations that are using uncompressed source material sound amazing in HD. Stations that start with crap audio sound like a decent internet stream...i.e.: worse than FM.

I will say, I've heard a radio disney affiliate broadcasting on AM in HD and MY GOD!!!!!! Incredible. I hate what it does to the band...but WOWZA.

my 2 cents.

 

[700WLW]

People will buy HD radios only when it's time to buy a new radio. We need to give them reasons and give them better programming on our main air channels...not even more boring side-channels.

FM HD sounds sounds pretty darn good, I gotta say, and I have golden, I mean golden ears. The stations that are using uncompressed source material sound amazing in HD. Stations that start with crap audio sound like a decent internet stream...i.e.: worse than FM.

I will say, I've heard a radio disney affiliate broadcasting on AM in HD and MY GOD!!!!!! Incredible. I hate what it does to the band...but WOWZA.

my 2 cents.

People aren't buying HD radios, for whatever reason - almost, zero consumer interest, and unlikely to change:

Interest, in HD Radio, is now declining:

http://www.google.com/trends?q="hd+radio"

Interest, in HD Radio, versus Internet Radio, XM, Sirius, and podcasting - very little:

http://www.google.com/trends?q="hd+radio",+"internet+radio",+xm,+sirius,+podcast

Interest in HD Radio, versus iPods and MP3s - zero:

http://www.google.com/trends?q="hd+radio",+ipod,+mp3&ctab=0&geo=all&date=all

 

[dbdigital]

Mike said:

Patience in antenna placement has a LOT to do with success. You can't just let a dipole hang behind the equipment rack the way people have done for years and expect much of anything, except in a major metro area. But if you buy a long extension cable, and move your antenna around, you may well be amazed at how far HD goes.

Do you really believe the typical consumer is going to go to all that additional trouble and expense just to pick up digital duplicates of what they already get perfectly well from the same AM and FM stations, plus a few HD2 streams that are just "iPod shuffles" of music that they might not be interested in hearing?
What about frequent format flips?
Some of the HD2's have already flipped formats. I should buy an HD radio and fool around with external antennas just to get an HD2 format that may disappear, and certainly will become commercialized.
So you are delighted beyond wildest belief with HD Radio. That makes 1 down, only 800 million radios to go.

Don't forget, the estimated 80 - 100 million analog radios, that continue to be sold every year.

And this is part of the problem. iBiquity has to stop treating HD Radio as if it were a golden child. It isn't. It's nothing. What they need to do is make this technology so ubiquitous, so cheap (slutty, even?) that a consumer has little choice. It's either satellite or HD radio be it a home stereo, boombox or throw-away clock radio. iBiquity is going to have to give HD radio away to any and all CE manufacturers. Like buying a television. You just about can't buy a CRT television now.

HD Radio is going to have to achieve that kind of forced penetration if it's ever going to succeed (although I hope to heaven it doesn't).

db

 

[Len14043]

You may get HD 80 miles with a full 100kw Class C on flat terrain with the wind at your back on the 100th floor of a skyscraper, or in New England on a clean, daytime clear channel signal like WABC 770Kc. But most every coverage map from the stations and manufacturers clearly show a small coverage area compared to analog. The IBOC is only at partial power of the total licensed signal. I think it's safe to say that HD, until they kill the analog and go full digital modulation and power, 80 miles is the extreme exception.

I live in the Cincinnati area and most of the Cincinnati and Dayton stations run HD. This area is a good laboratory for HD because the FM band is crowded and the HD sidebands have to compete with ajacient channels. I live about 17 and 35 miles away from the Cincinnati and Dayton towers, respectively. While driving in the area, the Cincinnati HD signals are solid with rare dropouts within 25 miles out the tower. Beyond 25 miles, the dropouts increase in duration and frequency until the HD signal is completely gone at about 37 miles. At this distance, the ajacients can usually be heard. The range is shorter here than in North Carolina due to the crowded band. At this point, I don't know how an HD radio would perform in my house. If being parked inside an attached garage is similar to being inside a house with respect to signal penetration, there shoule be no trouble receiving the Cincinnati stations inside my house.

 

[OKCRadioGuy]

Out here in Okieland where it's pretty flat, the only real significant improvement I can see with FM HD on the primary HD channel is bypassing the the effects of 75ms pre-emphasis. Digital is clearly better when it comes to the high end because it doesn't have to play games with pre-emphasis. With that being said, a properly processed FM in analog sounds just as good as the HD, possibly better as it doesn't have the lossy digital compression techniques applied to it, excluding the effects of pre-emphasis. HD is cranky about where an antenna has to be in many cases to get proper reception, so honestly I wonder, in the real world, how much of a real improvent HD has over analog even when it comes to multipath issues. If a signal is mostly cancelled out from multipath, how can it work great with a digital signal that's wayyyy down compared to the analog host? In general, if a signal isn't good enough to give you near perfect analog stereo, it's not going to work in the digital while we're still doing the hybrid-mode. The ONLY advantage, we hope, for HD is the fact it offers more than one channel to program. The rest of this is really just hogwash. With that being said, if you're not a class B or better, forget it. I've seen pirates with better coverage than HD signals on a class A. Before someone calls me a detractor, let me state this: I'm not. I own a HD radio and am in the industry. The truth is the truth. HD, like many things has it's drawbacks regardless of what the moneymen want. If the moneymen had any brains (yeah, right) they'd get around to programming to those YOUNGER audiences not being properly served and not worry about the "great sound" part.

As far as AM "HD" is concerned, we need to AT LEAST adopt DRM as the standard for AM and ask that all "HD" radios that are built from now on are made to be able to receive DRM. Since most "HD" radios are software radios, I'm thinking that will be a lot easier than one would think. AM IBUZ is a near total failure. Let's just move on with what we're going to do in 20 years from now. At some point, if we're lucky, there will be enough "HD" radios out there to dump analog and end up with something that is useful. Anyone that impliments AM IBUZ now either is big corporate with a edict or is VERY uninformed. IBUZ for AM is a afterthought joke on the industry, and it shows.

 

[SUPERCASTER]

Thanks to LEN14043 and okcradio guy for their fresh input.
okc said:

If a signal is mostly cancelled out from multipath, how can it work great with a digital signal that's wayyyy down compared to the analog host? In general, if a signal isn't good enough to give you near perfect analog stereo, it's not going to work in the digital while we're still doing the hybrid-mode.

That verifies that the "multipath immunity" claimed by iBiquity/HD radio is just another marketing myth. Loosing the HD signal, muting, or squelching, is not the same as "immune to multipath", and never will be, no matter how many times HD supporters repeat the same old promotional blasts of HD tripe.

 

[Mike Walker]

Supercaster I actually don't worry too much about format duplication or the lack of creativity on HD2 streams, and don't really give a flip about the typical consumer. I'm no longer a programmer, so I don't have to worry about what listeners want. Only about what I want.

I listen primarily to public radio, which has always been quality oriented. So stations are well engineered in both analog and digital. I CAN HEAR A HUGE DIFFERENCE WHERE I LIVE. That's enough for me. There are a couple of HD2s that I OCCASIONALLY listen to...the a/c oldies on Lite 102.9 (Charlotte), and country oldies on WTQR (Greensboro). Neither of these formats are available on analog stations (any more!), so it's not duplication. But the vast majority of my time is spent on WDAV Davidson NC (89.9) with "real hd"...96kbps. They sound stunning through headphones. Other than the total lack of noise, the biggest benefit I get from them is the complete lack of "congestion" on loud passages. I hadn't even noticed that this was happening until I heard it's ABSENCE on HD. Crescendos actually get LOUDER...and remain clean. Critical to classical music. I can see how this wouldn't be much of a big deal to someone who listens primarily to rock or country...formats with little dynamic range. On classical programming, hell...even on news (which on NPR is very sound-effects intensive with tons of dynamic range) the clarity is startling.

That's what I get from it (to answer your question). As for others, I don't know...and don't care that much. The "niche" for HD radio is sure as hell bigger than, say, SACD or DVD Audio already (I don't know ANYBODY who's heard of these formats other than audiophiles...after SEVEN YEARS!) That's big enough to ensure that at least the stations on the "left end of the dial" (public radio) will continue to use HD, and that radios will continue to be available...even if it's eventually only from specialist manufacturers. I'm fine with that. I belive HD will achieve much more, but if it doesn't it already passes MY threshold test. It's already enhancing MY radio listening. Which is ENOUGH

Have a great weekend!

 

[700WLW]

Mike said:

Patience in antenna placement has a LOT to do with success. You can't just let a dipole hang behind the equipment rack the way people have done for years and expect much of anything, except in a major metro area. But if you buy a long extension cable, and move your antenna around, you may well be amazed at how far HD goes.

Do you really believe the typical consumer is going to go to all that additional trouble and expense just to pick up digital duplicates of what they already get perfectly well from the same AM and FM stations, plus a few HD2 streams that are just "iPod shuffles" of music that they might not be interested in hearing?
What about frequent format flips?
Some of the HD2's have already flipped formats. I should buy an HD radio and fool around with external antennas just to get an HD2 format that may disappear, and certainly will become commercialized.
So you are delighted beyond wildest belief with HD Radio. That makes 1 down, only 800 million radios to go.

Don't forget, the estimated 80 - 100 million analog radios, that continue to be sold every year.

And this is part of the problem. iBiquity has to stop treating HD Radio as if it were a golden child. It isn't. It's nothing. What they need to do is make this technology so ubiquitous, so cheap (slutty, even?) that a consumer has little choice. It's either satellite or HD radio be it a home stereo, boombox or throw-away clock radio. iBiquity is going to have to give HD radio away to any and all CE manufacturers. Like buying a television. You just about can't buy a CRT television now.

HD Radio is going to have to achieve that kind of forced penetration if it's ever going to succeed (although I hope to heaven it doesn't).

db

An HD Radio give-away, is exactly what Ramsey has said, but that will ever happen - and yes, HD Radio is having to be "forced" on consumers, but they are responding with closed wallets, and by now, are probably just annoyed.

 

[Chuck]

<snip>
I listen primarily to public radio, which has always been quality oriented. So stations are well engineered in both analog and digital. I CAN HEAR A HUGE DIFFERENCE WHERE I LIVE. That's enough for me.
<snip>

They sound stunning through headphones. Other than the total lack of noise, the biggest benefit I get from them is the complete lack of "congestion" on loud passages. I hadn't even noticed that this was happening until I heard it's ABSENCE on HD. Crescendos actually get LOUDER...and remain clean. Critical to classical music. I can see how this wouldn't be much of a big deal to someone who listens primarily to rock or country...formats with little dynamic range. On classical programming, hell...even on news (which on NPR is very sound-effects intensive with tons of dynamic range) the clarity is startling.

That's big enough to ensure that at least the stations on the "left end of the dial" (public radio) will continue to use HD, and that radios will continue to be available...even if it's eventually only from specialist manufacturers. I'm fine with that. I belive HD will achieve much more, but if it doesn't it already passes MY threshold test. It's already enhancing MY radio listening. Which is ENOUGH

Yes, but you, along with most of the rest of us on this board are the exception. I like Classical Music, but most of the American public has no appreciation for it. Public Radio is important to me, but even the people who work in the field recognize that they are not talking to the average American. That's kind of sad, when you think about it. Unfortunately, it is reality.

You or I would put up an outside antenna to pick up something we want to listen to. Most people wouldn't. I'd even put a long cable on an indoor antenna, and drag it around my living room in an effort to get better reception. I'd even ignore my wife's comments about "all those wires." (She's used to it.) Most people don't even understand how an antenna works.

I just don't think the general public is willing to go through whatever it takes to make HD work. They like simple. Unless they can take the radio out of the box, plug it in, turn it on and get great reception, most people are not going to bother.

As far as I can tell, we are not at that point yet.