Spring 2013 Ratings

[StandingBy]

Looks like the biggest number for WSTW in quite a while and conversely the lowest for WJBR. WXCY wins the country battle and the news talkers are tied.

12+
WSTW 7.5
WJBR 6.5
WXCY 4.4
WDSD 2.4
WDEL 2.3
WILM 2.3
WJKS 2.1
WRDX NA

 

[raceradio]

Somewhat interesting that the news-talk stations have rated so low. Am I missing something?

 

[FredLeonard]

These stations add up to a 27.5 share. Arbitron no longer includes non-subscribing stations in their public reports. Philly stations don't buy the Wilmington book, so they are not included. Once again, more than two-thirds, close to three-quarters, of Wilmington listeners are tuned to Philly stations (plus a smattering from Maryland or the Ticket). Wilmington insists on being considered a separate market when reality dictates it's part of Philly.

And these are diary numbers, recorded only twice a year, so they don't mean much any way. The fluctuations from book to book by the two talk stations indicate these numbers are completely out of touch with reality.

 

[MikefromDelaware]

FredLeonard: The problem with the Wilmington radio market merging with the Philly radio market is the Philly audiences and advertisers don't care about Wilmington stations. The Philly Ad Agencies aren't selling spots from Wilmington businesses, just like with TV [why would a Wilmington advertiser want to pay the significant higher costs to tell folks in Upper Darby or Center City Philly about their store in Suburban Wilmington, New Castle, or Newark?

Even so, both WJBR and WSTW have solid city grade signals into Philly and cover much of their suburbs, yet 93.7 and 99.5 never break a 1.0 in the Philly PPM numbers for 6+. Folks in Wilmington may listen to Philly stations as they've got far more stations meaning more variety than the few Wilmington stations, but the folks in Philly don't seem to choose to tune to in any significant number to Wilmington stations as they've got plenty of choices [B-101 essentially is WJBR's programming so why tune into 99.5?] There probably is a similar formated station in Philly for 93.7 too]. The other so called Wilmington FM's don't have that great of a signal into Philly such as, 94.7 WDSD [its tower is in Dover], 101.7 WJKS [its tower is in Canton, NJ] and 103.7 WXCY [which is actually located even further away closer to Baltimore in Havre de Grace MD so it's not a player in Philly at all].

The non-comm FM's like WXHL 89.1[Faith City Church - Reach FM], and WMPH 91.7 [Mt. Pleasant High], WVUD 91.3 [U of Del], and 107.7 WRTI is a repeater from Philly's 90.1 so its low power, but none of these stations have signals that hit Philly either.

The AM's, 1150 WDEL, 1450 WILM, and 1290 WWTX the Ticket get into the southern part of Philly during the day parts, but fad pretty quickly as you enter center city, so the Wilmington AM's aren't players in Philly either.

Even though a large part of the Wilmington audience is NOT listening to Wilmington radio, I'd assume [I have no access to the book as I'm no longer working in radio] that even though the Arbitron numbers do not show the Philly stations info for 12+ that are made public [seems childish of Arbitron] they probably do show them in the book as that would be important info for the subscribers who've paid for that info.

You asked about news/talk stations and why WDEL and WILM show such low numbers? I also listen to 90.9 WHYY-FM and notice quite a lot of corporate underwriting from Wilmington on their station. So I'd assume that there must be a significant number of Wilmington market listeners tuning in to WHYY-FM, or why would those Wilmington area businesses spend money to underwrite the NPR station in Philly?

Also some of that spoken word audience from Wilmington does listen to sports/talk and as 1290 WWTX ratings have only once showed up in the 12+ numbers, surly isn't a big player [even though I listen to 1290 a lot -Dan Patrick and Jay Mohr], but I along with others from Wilmington do listen to 94.1 WIP-FM and 97.5 WPEN-FM for sports/talk too. Some other Wilmington area listeners may be listening to 1210 WPHT and 106.9 WWIQ. Again, these wouldn't show in the Wilmington public 12+ numbers because none of these Philly stations are going to buy the Wilmington book.

What I'd really like to see would be the PPM's come to Wilmington and dump the diaries.

 

[FredLeonard]

Arbitron markets should be defined by what listeners do, not what stations want. Unfortunately, stations pay the bills. The Census Bureau recognized that Wilmington is part of the Philadelphia Metro area some 30 years ago.

What Wilmington should be is, in Arbitron terms, an embedded market. These get included in overall totals for the metro area and get reported separately. Examples include Long Island (included with New York) and San Jose (included with Oakland). And being embedded with Philly would mean Wilmington would get PPMs. Arbitron does not seem to disposed to expand PPMs beyond the top 50 markets.

WJBR is owned by Beasley as part of their Philly cluster and is the only station licensed to Wilmington which buys into the Philly book. AC is a very profitable format and many markets do support more than one AC station. Yes, they do need to find some way to better differentiate themselves from the B. If Wilmington were embedded, I imagine the other FM stations would re-locate their transmitters to get a better signal across the line (as Wilmington's TV stations did).

The Ticket does not show up because they don't subscribe to Arbitron (although they didn't make much of a dent in the ratings when Arbitron reported non-subscribers). Sports is one of those formats where the Wilmington audience clearly prefers a Philly station. The question should be why doesn't the B do better in Wilmington, since WJBR does almost nothing now to target Wilmington as distinct from the rest of the region.

 

[OldNumber7]

Arbitron markets should be defined by what listeners do, not what stations want.

That's a ridiculous statement. Arbitron is a business and should be doing exactly what its customers (the stations) and potential customers want.

 

[FredLeonard]

Arbitron markets should be defined by what listeners do, not what stations want.

That's a ridiculous statement. Arbitron is a business and should be doing exactly what its customers (the stations) and potential customers want.

Talk about ridiculous! They are a research company. Their business depends on the validity and reliability of their research. Not on pandering to customers. Stations may be the customers, but media buyers are the users. And if they don't have confidence in Arbitron's data - which clearly they don't - stations will not and can not sell time. This is the reason ad revenue is and has been in free fall. Besides, there is such a thing as integrity, although people in radio wouldn't know about that.

 

[OldNumber7]

Their business depends on the validity and reliability of their research.

Who says it isn't valid?

And if they don't have confidence in Arbitron's data - which clearly they don't -

Who says they don't?

This is the reason ad revenue is and has been in free fall.

What is the basis of this assertion?

[/quote]

 

[MikefromDelaware]

Arbitron markets should be defined by what listeners do, not what stations want. Unfortunately, stations pay the bills. The Census Bureau recognized that Wilmington is part of the Philadelphia Metro area some 30 years ago.

What Wilmington should be is, in Arbitron terms, an embedded market. These get included in overall totals for the metro area and get reported separately. Examples include Long Island (included with New York) and San Jose (included with Oakland). And being embedded with Philly would mean Wilmington would get PPMs. Arbitron does not seem to disposed to expand PPMs beyond the top 50 markets.

WJBR is owned by Beasley as part of their Philly cluster and is the only station licensed to Wilmington which buys into the Philly book. AC is a very profitable format and many markets do support more than one AC station. Yes, they do need to find some way to better differentiate themselves from the B. If Wilmington were embedded, I imagine the other FM stations would re-locate their transmitters to get a better signal across the line (as Wilmington's TV stations did).

The Ticket does not show up because they don't subscribe to Arbitron (although they didn't make much of a dent in the ratings when Arbitron reported non-subscribers). Sports is one of those formats where the Wilmington audience clearly prefers a Philly station. The question should be why doesn't the B do better in Wilmington, since WJBR does almost nothing now to target Wilmington as distinct from the rest of the region.

You mention that Arbitron doesn't seem willing to expand the PPM's to markets smaller than the top 50. The Long Island market [Nassau/Suffolk Counties] is market #18, so even though it is embedded in the NYC market, it would still get PPM's.

Would Wilmington being market #78 or 79 [it keeps getting a higher number, back in the late 60's Wilmington was market #61], would Arbitron still spend the money for PPM's here? If yes, and as they did list a separate listing for the Wilmington Market as they do with Suffolk/Nassau Counties then that would indeed seem to make sense to do.

The fact that that Arbitron doesn't do it, implies there's something else preventing it. Is it possible that in order to do this, the Wilmington stations would have to buy both a Wilmington and Philly book to be shown [So do Long Island stations have to buy both a LI and a NYC book]? Yes Beasley owns WJBR and they are a Philly radio company, so they already pay for the Philly book, but Delmarva, CC Delaware, and WJKS don't, and maybe they just aren't willing to pony up the additional cost [probably costs more than the much smaller Wilmington book] so they can see how poorly they do in Philly. Prior to Arbitron only showing any and all 12+ numbers, Wilmington stations did not do well in Philly [I already mentioned this in my earlier post], so why would Wilmington stations want to spend more to be listed in a market they aren't selling local spots to so they can see their ratings pop up as a 0.8 in a good book season? THAT probably has a lot to do with why Wilmington is still done as a separate market.

 

[FredLeonard]

Both Long Island and San Jose are top 50 markets on their own AND embedded in larger parent markets. They would get PPMs as stand-alone markets OR as part of larger markets. Stations in Long Island and San Jose do not need to buy the New York or San Francisco books to be reported in the Long Island or San Jose ratings. They can just buy the "local" book and be reported in the "local" book.

Maybe Wilmington is not interested in paying more for more accurate numbers. Wilmington does diaries only twice a year, not four times a year like most 51-100 markets. They do data collection in the spring and fall survey periods, not in winter and summer. PPM measurements are continuous. If you follow the numbers for Philly, you'll notice that numbers can vary markedly in different quarters.

Wilmington does not get much national spot business. Advertisers can buy Philly and get Wilmington, no extra charge. And ratings are less important to local advertisers. Even when local ad buyers are given ratings, they really don't know how to read or evaluate the data. Sort of like many people here. If local advertisers knew how poorly local stations really do, local stations would be in trouble.

Are you aware there is a quote function (looks like a cartoon speech balloon with lines across it)?

 

[MikefromDelaware]

Are you aware there is a quote function (looks like a cartoon speech balloon with lines across it)?

No, thanks, good to know.

Maybe Wilmington is not interested in paying more for more accurate numbers. Wilmington does diaries only twice a year, not four times a year like most 51-100 markets. They do data collection in the spring and fall survey periods, not in winter and summer. PPM measurements are continuous. If you follow the numbers for Philly, you'll notice that numbers can vary markedly in different quarters.

So they would have to pay more and would not generate additional revenue for the local stations so why spent the money? As I said earlier, I'm assuming that inside the book they now buy, probably does have those Philly stations listed so they now see where the rest of the Wilmington radio audience is, so why pay more for essentially the same info. It's simple dollars and cents for the Wilmington stations. They'd gain nothing so why bother?

I'd like to see PPM numbers, but if Arbitron is only going to show us in the 12+ just the Wilmington book subscribers even with the PPM folks like you and still learn nothing new either and if what I wrote in the previous paragraph is true the local station's won't benefit, so what's the point?

 

[FredLeonard]

Are you aware there is a quote function (looks like a cartoon speech balloon with lines across it)?

No, thanks, good to know.

Maybe Wilmington is not interested in paying more for more accurate numbers. Wilmington does diaries only twice a year, not four times a year like most 51-100 markets. They do data collection in the spring and fall survey periods, not in winter and summer. PPM measurements are continuous. If you follow the numbers for Philly, you'll notice that numbers can vary markedly in different quarters.

So they would have to pay more and would not generate additional revenue for the local stations so why spent the money? As I said earlier, I'm assuming that inside the book they now buy, probably does have those Philly stations listed so they now see where the rest of the Wilmington radio audience is, so why pay more for essentially the same info. It's simple dollars and cents for the Wilmington stations. They'd gain nothing so why bother?

I'd like to see PPM numbers, but if Arbitron is only going to show us in the 12+ just the Wilmington book subscribers even with the PPM folks like you and still learn nothing new either and if what I wrote in the previous paragraph is true the local station's won't benefit, so what's the point?

I'm not sure why stations which still subscribe bother. Twice a year diary numbers are worthless. The data are not valid and not reliable. Radio is the only field which did not get rid of diaries some 20 or more years ago. Ad agency media buyers don't take these numbers seriously. This is why Wilmington, although it may be 78th in population, it ranks much lower in revenue.

 

[FredLeonard]

Who would want Wilmington embedded with Philly? Philly stations. They get most of the listeners but they are not counted in Philly numbers. More cume = higher rates (or lower cost per thousand). Ratings are (supposedly) a sales tool - no more, no less. Sorry, to disappoint those who think ratings are how stations keep score or exist as something for people to talk about on message boards.

 

[OldNumber7]

Who would want Wilmington embedded with Philly? Philly stations. They get most of the listeners but they are not counted in Philly numbers. More cume = higher rates (or lower cost per thousand). Ratings are (supposedly) a sales tool - no more, no less. Sorry, to disappoint those who think ratings are how stations keep score or exist as something for people to talk about on message boards.

But you leave marketplace behavior out of your equation. Wilmington consumers may be listening to Philly stations, but they aren't often interested in driving to the Philly metro to do their shopping (except maybe around 202 and US 1 -- and those businesses already buy STW and JBR anyway). Counting Wilmington listeners in the Philly book would really do nothing for Philly advertisers or Philly stations.
Wilmington businesses cant afford to advertise on Philly stations. Wilmington customers aren't interested much in shopping in the Philly metro. Philly businesses don't need to buy Wilmington stations to reach Wilmington listeners. It's a virtuous circle. The normal way of doing things works just fine.

 

[FredLeonard]

But you leave marketplace behavior out of your equation. Wilmington consumers may be listening to Philly stations, but they aren't often interested in driving to the Philly metro to do their shopping (except maybe around 202 and US 1 -- and those businesses already buy STW and JBR anyway). Counting Wilmington listeners in the Philly book would really do nothing for Philly advertisers or Philly stations.
Wilmington businesses cant afford to advertise on Philly stations. Wilmington customers aren't interested much in shopping in the Philly metro. Philly businesses don't need to buy Wilmington stations to reach Wilmington listeners. It's a virtuous circle. The normal way of doing things works just fine.

The Census Bureau puts Wilmington in the Philadelphia Metro because people do cross state lines to shop and to work. Arbitron numbers are used by agency media buyers working on national (and regional) campaigns. We are not just talking about local shops running ads. By your logic, Camden should be a separate market, too.

New Castle is just one county in the metro region - for business purposes, no different than Delaware, Montgomery, Chester, Bucks, Camden, Burlington or Gloucester.