So there are now two translators operating in St. Augustine: WFOY, WSOS, and they are up against WYRE? How do you feel this battle will work out? I monitored WFOY for a very short period of time and found nothing has changed since they moved to FM. WSOS could certainly fill a void in the market but to me their programming is very weak. WYRE is not very local but to my ear they are the better of the three but not a contender in the Jacksonville market. Thoughts?
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St Augustine Radio
- Thread starter nuffsaid
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1250 you are 100% correct. I understand that both WSOS and WFOY are selling spots on a buy one get one ratio and we both know that will create a major stumbling block for anybody in radio sales in the market. Am told the average unit rate on the war of the roses stations are around 2.00! Do not know how anybody can make a profit based on such low rates. This rate war between the Geddings and Phillips camps must be a major thorn in WYRE's side.
O
ok walters
Guest
How much should an AM like WSOS that has been off the air for years and is now back on with a translator that didn't exist in the area until six months ago be getting for a spot? Doesn't sound too far off what they are actually worth in that market in that strange situation - how many listeners could they possibly have at this point?
I disagree OK! When you hit the streets selling your station it is about "listeners" but it is also about what it is worth. If I were to buy into your WSOS being new and not worth more than $2.00 I'd like to know why you feel WFOY should be selling for so little? The market did not establish the rate and feel the market has been told that radio is only worth a dollar or two. If you are on the street with part time sellers who are untrained and unsupervised and you happy with what they bring to the table then you don't need to be in radio! Think 1250WTAE would agree with that also.
O
ok walters
Guest
Fair enough, but there is another side to that coin. Go out and sell some spots for $10-20 each for these stations and then have all of the advertisers cancel after one contract because the return didn't come close to the outlay. Then the attitude becomes "radio doesn't work" or "it just costs too much" - is that easier to overcome than the spots being priced too low? The market can be educated that you charge too much just as fast (or faster) than it can learn you charge too little - which would be worse? Which would be easier to overcome in the long haul?
I am guessing that WFOY is pricing spots in response to the rates WSOS is quoting as the new guy in town. If they had enough verifiable listeners they could overcome the low prices being offered by the new guy, but they apparently don't have that so a price war has erupted. Happens all of the time in every industry.
There could also be a strategy by WFOY to attempt to starve the new guy into submission. If all he can get is $2 everywhere he goes he may not make it in the long haul. WFOY may be able to withstand lower rates for a short period - no knowledge there, just a possibility. They may also know alot about each others finances due to the relationship they have, so ???
This situation is a little different in most aspects anyway, so given all of the factors including "War of the Roses" as it is called, the number of stations in the market, and the less than stellar history of all of them including WYRE, I'll ask again - how much do you think should they be getting for a spot package if $2 is so far out of line?
I am guessing that WFOY is pricing spots in response to the rates WSOS is quoting as the new guy in town. If they had enough verifiable listeners they could overcome the low prices being offered by the new guy, but they apparently don't have that so a price war has erupted. Happens all of the time in every industry.
There could also be a strategy by WFOY to attempt to starve the new guy into submission. If all he can get is $2 everywhere he goes he may not make it in the long haul. WFOY may be able to withstand lower rates for a short period - no knowledge there, just a possibility. They may also know alot about each others finances due to the relationship they have, so ???
This situation is a little different in most aspects anyway, so given all of the factors including "War of the Roses" as it is called, the number of stations in the market, and the less than stellar history of all of them including WYRE, I'll ask again - how much do you think should they be getting for a spot package if $2 is so far out of line?
Think your key word in this post is "package" price. When you put a "package" on the street and sell it for less than market value then you don't have a price war you have a disaster for all broadcasters. It is my understanding that WFOY has been selling spots at far less than WYRE and giving "bonus" or "no charge" spots on top of the already discounted prices. No need fo rus to go back and forth over this issue for neither WFOY or WSOS has any similance of a trained sales team on the street. It is my understanding they uitilize part time sales people and that is a slippery slope. I have nothing to gain one way or the other so let the rates fall where they may. Think 1250 needs to move into the market and put these guys into the real world. On another topic, I understand that Phillips was granted a second translator for WAOC but have made no arrangements to move it to St. Augustine. Could she get caught up in the LPFM filing dates that are coming soon and get shut out?
O
ok walters
Guest
Three AMs with two translators now and one more apparently coming, and a FM that doesn't reach Jacksonville - and don't forget the St. Augustine newspaper and all of the coupon books, etc. Sounds like a bunch of competition is a pretty small market - so what is "market value" for spots on an AM station in that situation?
The question regarding how much a single spot rate should be for a Saint Augustine AM station is a very good one. First let’s take a look at a few factors before that question can be more definitively answered.
First, is the advertising campaign active or passive?
Active advertising engages the listener and gets results as opposed to passive advertising that usually doesn’t work quite as well in getting the same desired results. An example of active advertising is a sales oriented promotion that requires the listener to do something. Offering a discount of some sort to station WZZZ listeners is a good example of an active ad campaign while a passive spot run doesn’t do much more than tell the listener to “buy this” or “buy that”.
Secondly, what is the frequency of the advertising campaign?
When I sold advertising, I rarely ever sold at rate card published rates, but rather I used the rate card as a guide. I mostly sold sales packages which consisted of Total Audience Plans or TAP plans, drive time saturation packages, weekend saturation packages, and custom ad campaigns, for example. These packages were sold at slightly less than rate card per unit rate which the clients liked. Also, as we all understand that the industry standard is customary to give the advertiser a 5%, 10% or 15% discount off of the rate card (or package) for a 13, 26 or 52 week contract. I never sold any advertising for less than a 13 week commitment and I strongly urged a minimal 26-week commitment since frequency is what gets the advertiser noticed. I would turn down advertising that was requested for less than 13-weeks simply because anything less than a 13-week campaign will do little if anything in getting the advertiser the desired results. Repetition using variations of any particular commercial creates top of mind awareness while convincing “in-market” customers to buy from advertiser “A” while leaving a lasting impression with out-of-market customers to remember advertiser “A” when said out-of-market customer becomes an “in-market” customer. This is done through very active advertising over a period of time. It won’t happen with a short, one time ad run which runs less than 13-weeks. So, if the advertiser is complaining that radio did not work for said advertiser, I’ll bet it is largely because the ad campaign was too short (less than 13-weeks) and passive.
As for answering the question regarding what said spot rate is worth, again, this is very good question which I will summarize this way. It is largely contingent upon what the market is willing to pay, how the ad campaign is orchestrated and the image created in the advertiser's mind. Asking a lessor amount to undercut the competition is indirectly telling the local advertising community that the station is worth less than the competition and most likely will not deliver the desired customers to the advertiser’s business. This is where educating the account executives, sales team and advertisers why station WZZZ’s rate are higher than station WAAA and why station WZZZ is worth more to the advertiser, while creating an active advertising campaign for the client that is designed to get results for the advertiser, is essential.
First, is the advertising campaign active or passive?
Active advertising engages the listener and gets results as opposed to passive advertising that usually doesn’t work quite as well in getting the same desired results. An example of active advertising is a sales oriented promotion that requires the listener to do something. Offering a discount of some sort to station WZZZ listeners is a good example of an active ad campaign while a passive spot run doesn’t do much more than tell the listener to “buy this” or “buy that”.
Secondly, what is the frequency of the advertising campaign?
When I sold advertising, I rarely ever sold at rate card published rates, but rather I used the rate card as a guide. I mostly sold sales packages which consisted of Total Audience Plans or TAP plans, drive time saturation packages, weekend saturation packages, and custom ad campaigns, for example. These packages were sold at slightly less than rate card per unit rate which the clients liked. Also, as we all understand that the industry standard is customary to give the advertiser a 5%, 10% or 15% discount off of the rate card (or package) for a 13, 26 or 52 week contract. I never sold any advertising for less than a 13 week commitment and I strongly urged a minimal 26-week commitment since frequency is what gets the advertiser noticed. I would turn down advertising that was requested for less than 13-weeks simply because anything less than a 13-week campaign will do little if anything in getting the advertiser the desired results. Repetition using variations of any particular commercial creates top of mind awareness while convincing “in-market” customers to buy from advertiser “A” while leaving a lasting impression with out-of-market customers to remember advertiser “A” when said out-of-market customer becomes an “in-market” customer. This is done through very active advertising over a period of time. It won’t happen with a short, one time ad run which runs less than 13-weeks. So, if the advertiser is complaining that radio did not work for said advertiser, I’ll bet it is largely because the ad campaign was too short (less than 13-weeks) and passive.
As for answering the question regarding what said spot rate is worth, again, this is very good question which I will summarize this way. It is largely contingent upon what the market is willing to pay, how the ad campaign is orchestrated and the image created in the advertiser's mind. Asking a lessor amount to undercut the competition is indirectly telling the local advertising community that the station is worth less than the competition and most likely will not deliver the desired customers to the advertiser’s business. This is where educating the account executives, sales team and advertisers why station WZZZ’s rate are higher than station WAAA and why station WZZZ is worth more to the advertiser, while creating an active advertising campaign for the client that is designed to get results for the advertiser, is essential.
O
ok walters
Guest
All of that verbage from the Doctor and no actual answer to the question that was posed. We had the usual "whatever the market is willing to pay" comment, and lots of stuff about how he "used to" do it - but no actual answers. I am not surprised - the only thing that was missing is the cursory "I get paid for information like that". :
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The St. Augustine radio/advertising market has been turned upside down in the last few years with the rebirth of WYRE and WSOS and the addition of the translators, giving the AMs some FM presence. With the addition of that many startup type operations (read "hungry") there are bound to be some price wars at some point. I would imagine it has affected the newspaper and coupon books rates as well - that is a bunch of players in a pretty small and spread out market with few large advertisers. My thought is that with the pie sliced pretty thin, how much audience could each of these players have? Does that number justify higher rates, or are low rates to be expected due to smaller audiences and hungry players?
: :The St. Augustine radio/advertising market has been turned upside down in the last few years with the rebirth of WYRE and WSOS and the addition of the translators, giving the AMs some FM presence. With the addition of that many startup type operations (read "hungry") there are bound to be some price wars at some point. I would imagine it has affected the newspaper and coupon books rates as well - that is a bunch of players in a pretty small and spread out market with few large advertisers. My thought is that with the pie sliced pretty thin, how much audience could each of these players have? Does that number justify higher rates, or are low rates to be expected due to smaller audiences and hungry players?
ok walters said:All of that verbage from the Doctor and no actual answer to the question that was posed. We had the usual "whatever the market is willing to pay" comment, and lots of stuff about how he "used to" do it - but no actual answers. I am not surprised - the only thing that was missing is the cursory "I get paid for information like that". :
How would you price the AM stations? In other words, based on what you have identified as competitors in the market and how the Saint Augustine market has changed over the years, what do you believe, based on your own expertise, is a fair per unit rate?
O
ok walters
Guest
The statement that was made was that a price war was going on and there was a mention of $2 spots being sold on the AMs, and how ridiculous that was. My question was why is that ridiculous when there are so many stations and not that many listeners to go around. Then of course you came in with your normal Captain Obvious "they will sell it for whatever someone will pay" and "I used to", then a whole bunch of fluff and nothing specific.
I would say in the current unusual market situation in SA, in the summer time in Florida, with all of the issues the posters claim the stations are having with production, the on and off history of some of them, along with most of the Jacksonville stations having pretty good signals into the area, how much more than $2 could they get for more than one contract right now? How many listeners could any one of those stations have? How much is that small audience worth per spot? More than $2? I don't have the audience numbers (and neither do they I would imagine), but I wouldn't think so.
The debate then became about the effect of pricing something below what it was "worth", as the poster called it. My question was how much could it be "worth" with all of the above factors?
Now tell us what you think they would be worth, and give us some specifics, Dr. Tillery, Esquire. A man cannot survive on fluff alone.
I would say in the current unusual market situation in SA, in the summer time in Florida, with all of the issues the posters claim the stations are having with production, the on and off history of some of them, along with most of the Jacksonville stations having pretty good signals into the area, how much more than $2 could they get for more than one contract right now? How many listeners could any one of those stations have? How much is that small audience worth per spot? More than $2? I don't have the audience numbers (and neither do they I would imagine), but I wouldn't think so.
The debate then became about the effect of pricing something below what it was "worth", as the poster called it. My question was how much could it be "worth" with all of the above factors?
Now tell us what you think they would be worth, and give us some specifics, Dr. Tillery, Esquire. A man cannot survive on fluff alone.
ok walters said:
This is an excellent question worth answering.
Fact:
Basic supply and demand dictates price on everything including radio advertising inventory. My answer was very specific and detailed in that it addressed that supply and demand question although I did not give a detailed or specific rate. As for whether or not a single unit rate is worth $2.00 or another figure, the market will determine that price. That is a specific, direct and detailed fact. Of course, the station can ask for any rate management chooses, but if the market is not willing to pay the asking rate, for example $10 per 30 second unit, then a lower rate is necessary to increase the likelihood of making the sale. If $2.00 per rate is what the market is willing to pay and said rate is paying the bills, that is all that really matters at the end of the day.
Fact:
The majority of the information I included in my previous comment had more to do with answering your other question relating to an advertiser stating that radio does not work. That was in relation to your comment about an advertiser paying a higher rate but not getting the desired results. Since that is a common objection, I offered what I believe to be the most common reason the advertising did not work for the client - passive ads, too short of an ad campaign run or both. I used myself as an example because I know my own strengths and weaknesses and what has worked for me and what has not worked so well. I do not know your ability or anyone else's so it is pointless for me to second guess another sales person's ability whom I have never met and do not know. On the other hand, if I work with a person long enough, I will soon learn that person's strengths and weaknesses.
As for what I believe the rate should be for a Saint Augustine AM station, I will address that below.
ok walters said:
All I can say here is this is an excellent observation that hits the metaphoric nail on the metaphoric head, and I could not have expressed it better myself. You put a great deal of thought into this.
ok walters said:
Fact:
The above italic bold quote from you is exactly the reason I did not quote a specific rate. Same as with you by your own admission, I do not have those specific details at my disposal to make a definite determination on how the rate schedule or rate card should be structured. If either of us were actively working the Saint Augustine market, we would both have a much clearer idea what the rate should be. If $2.00 is determined to be the highest and best rate, then there is the answer regarding rate.
ok walters said:
Please refer to the specifics found in the above paragraphs.
O
ok walters
Guest
In the case of some small AMs, $2 is enough to make it work to some extent. If you have any income other than spots at $2(block, sports, etc) then the station should at least stay on the air.
$2 per spot with a 20 spot per hour clock at a 50% sold level for 12 daylight hours five days per week generates about $5K per month. A little church on Sunday or high school sports or block time on Saturday even at $50 per hour and the next thing you know you are near $10K, more than enough to keep a small debt free AM going. You may raise some skinny kids, but the station should survive.
In the case of SA, it is pretty tough. They have small signals unable to reach the populated areas around Jax, and do not have a large older population, whcih typically would be your AM listeners. Take out the young people, the Hispanic speaking people, and consdering that the area west of I95 is nothing but cows and potatoes, they are left to fight over a pretty small pie. Throw in the lack of a real industry base - it is a tourist town - and you are left to fight with the newspaper and the coupon books over the retail businesses.
So as I said above - more than $2 per spot? Probably not.
$2 per spot with a 20 spot per hour clock at a 50% sold level for 12 daylight hours five days per week generates about $5K per month. A little church on Sunday or high school sports or block time on Saturday even at $50 per hour and the next thing you know you are near $10K, more than enough to keep a small debt free AM going. You may raise some skinny kids, but the station should survive.
In the case of SA, it is pretty tough. They have small signals unable to reach the populated areas around Jax, and do not have a large older population, whcih typically would be your AM listeners. Take out the young people, the Hispanic speaking people, and consdering that the area west of I95 is nothing but cows and potatoes, they are left to fight over a pretty small pie. Throw in the lack of a real industry base - it is a tourist town - and you are left to fight with the newspaper and the coupon books over the retail businesses.
So as I said above - more than $2 per spot? Probably not.
ok walters said:
Although $2.00 per unit sounds low to me, you bring up very good points which I am inclined to agree with you. There are multiple factors that go into determining a reasonable rate which includes everything you outlined. Although many Jacksonville signals reach Saint Augustine with a very clear and listenable signal; hence creating even more competition for local ears, the one thing the local SA stations have going for them is the ability to offer local content. The Jacksonville station won't cater to Saint Augustine as there is no money to be made or them there.
While local and live costs more to produce, in the case of Saint Augustine or anywhere else for that matter, it often times can mean the difference between local listeners listening to local radio over the bigger signals from Jacksonville. Using WLBE as a smaller market example, you already understand and have implemented local content as much as economically feasible which is a very good thing. I am very impressed with what you have done with AM 790 bringing it from where it was to where it is today. Clearly you understand what it takes to make a local AM radio station successful.
O
ok walters
Guest
The unique thing that the SA AMs face is the Jax signals and the inability of the low power SA signals to reach Jax, or even close to Jax where the people are. 585 watts on 1240 isn't going very far - probably about as far as 700 watts on 1170. The translators may make a difference one day, but that is very new and all of the other issues we listed still exist, so we will see.
The big difference that I have here at 790 is signal strength/frequency and a much more concentrated senior population who will tune into AM radio. I also don't share my market area with several other local frequencies and no FMs. Similar but not quite as tough as they have it there.
The big difference that I have here at 790 is signal strength/frequency and a much more concentrated senior population who will tune into AM radio. I also don't share my market area with several other local frequencies and no FMs. Similar but not quite as tough as they have it there.
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