STABBERT'S MEMO NIXING NIGHTTIME HD-AM FOR CITADEL

[Savage]

Citadel Corporate Chief Martin Stabbert's internal memo, killing HD-AM for 16 AM operations "for now," says it all:

"Because of lackluster performance, limited benefit, and reports of significant interference to other stations, please reinstitute daytime-only procedures for IBOC-AM...."

Jeez, where is Tom Ray when we so desperately need him?

 

[LinoNYC]

Citadel Corporate Chief Martin Stabbert's internal memo, killing HD-AM for 16 AM operations "for now," says it all:

"Because of lackluster performance, limited benefit, and reports of significant interference to other stations, please reinstitute daytime-only procedures for IBOC-AM...."

Jeez, where is Tom Ray when we so desperately need him?

-Probably tending his 24hr iboc operation on WOR, as are the C.E.'s of WFAN and WCBS-am.

Lino

 

[calstymes]

Savage quoted Citadel Corporate Chief Martin Stabbert's internal memo:

"Because of lackluster performance, limited benefit, and reports of significant interference to other stations, please reinstitute daytime-only procedures for IBOC-AM...."

Jeez, where is Tom Ray when we so desperately need him?

Gosh I wish I knew, although there appear to be some programming changes coming on Monday at WOR so no doubt he is busy implementing whatever engineering changes he has to make to accommodate them, and, as Lino suggested, his station's 24 hour IBOC operation. Maybe he is also busy providing technical data to the corporate lawyers who are preparing responses for interference complaints?

My hat is off to Mr. Stabbert who went with his instincts and good judgement and took a very bold position in defiance of iBiquity's influence at the FCC. No doubt this has a number of people at iBiquity very angry. Bravo to Mr. Stabbert. All of us who know how poor the AM HD system and how detrimental to the sound of the AM broadcast band it really is, owes him a very large "thank you"!

As Lino suggested, no doubt the chief engineers of WFAN 660 and WCBS 880 are busy as well, but hopefully they too will get the order to shut down night time AM HD operation and the broadcast industry will be on its way to retiring this horrific noise generator.

 

[RadioFixerCLE]

Why would you need Tom? Unless he has been experiencing problems and complaints from other stations, which I don't think so, his comments would carry the same weight as yours or mine.

I guess WOR doesn't have the same situation with adjacent channels that WABC has. Probably due to their signal pattern.

 

[Savage]

Steph - have enjoyed your posts here. I was just poking a little fun at Tom Ray, nothing mean, since prior to 9/14 he was publicly ridiculing IBOC critics in RW about how "the apocalypse is coming. I'm the one who will start it." Tom was referring to his plan to leave WOR on HD-AM at night and scoffing at those who warned about the likely adjacent-channel interference. Of course, anyone with any engineering expertise and experience - I would include you in that group - knew what was about to happen.

I was not suggesting his opinions don't carry weight. It's just that now that the inherent problems with HD-AM are becoming more and more evident, it would be interesting to hear what solutions he offers. The Citadel order this week is just the latest development in a growing body of opinion that HD-AM is a seriously troubled, destructive concept, far from being the technical development some had predicted (and who continue to insist) will resuscitate AM radio.

BTW, there was an early mutual-interference study I recall that apparently showed WOR IBOC interfered/would interfere with the nighttime protected contour of WLW.

 

[calstymes]

StephanieNYC queried:

Why would you need Tom?

He is, after all, the chief engineer of one of the most prestigious and historically significant AM stations in the #1 market. Given that he has participated in this forum before, it would probably a great gesture for him to post what his night time IBOC experience has been so far. If he thinks this is terrific stuff, then maybe an encouraging word from him might get us all to rethink our positions.

I for one would be willing to run out and buy a modern AM HD receiver if a few (or even one!) of the engineering moguls from the outfits that are already using it would identify themselves (himself) and tell us that the interference really isn't that bad and that this really is the thing that will save the AM broadcast band from the purgatory of listener obscurity.

As a whole, these folks are absent from anywhere in a forum such as this, or even from industry and professional publications. Tom has stuck his neck out and occasionally published an article but that's about it. Where are the engineering chiefs from the large radio groups? There is something wrong with this picture.

 

[JohnnyElectron]

Yep, and a recent RadioWorld article even showed the night contour maps for WJR and WABC - and duhhhh - Ohio and Pennsylvania would have a big mess - wow, engineers were right again - too bad they dismissed my petition on MM 99-325 file when they issued the rules!

 

[rbrucecarter5]

Jeez, where is Tom Ray when we so desperately need him?

Maybe - chasing down reports from listeners such as myself. AS far as I know KEEL doesn't run IBOC. KGNC doesn't run IBOC. The 710 in Kansas City doesn't run it. No 710 I know of runs IBOC - except WOR. And I clearly heard IBOC sidebands on WGN and WLW (which I have to null a local to get) here in Dallas. WOR is never heard here. But I have very good evidence that their sidebands ARE making it here, because I threw a null at New York and WGN cleared up. I used my father's very accurate geological compass to determine the bearing, corrected for magnetic North, everything. Sidebands were clearly coming from New York. It amazed me how robust they were at low power. I actually have become a bit enthusiastic about the prospects for full digital mode - it may give a station coverage unheard of with analog.

I hope Tom took my report seriously - I am a good, careful, empirical researcher with the expertise and equipment to make repeatable observations. I actually approached the sideband issue trying to DISPROVE the sidebands could have been from WOR, but the evidence is clear.

 

[JohnnyElectron]

Yes, all-digital does indeed look promising based on how far the digital sidebands go - but you still can't decode it. I would like to see the FCC allow 700-800KHz to go into 'all digital' mode some Sunday night this month for a few hours, just to see if it is possible to decode the all-digital signal, and if you can shrink the sidebands enough to decode the digital neightbors?
How about it FCC - an all-digital test night 700-780KHZ Sunday night October 28, 2007 11pm - 4am EDT Monday Oct.29?

I'm in Ohio and I can't decode WLW in HD, and can't even get the PAD, yet I can get PAD for KMOX. So I'm very curious to see if I could get WLW, WOR and WGN, plus the WSB & WJR groups in an all-digital mode?

We've got to do something different with AM, so I think we need to do some serious experimentation with the AM band - and I'm talking now - this month! Bring in all on - All-digital iBiquity HD, Kahn's CAM-D, C-Quam, ISB, and DRM - let's try it all and see what combinations work best at night and day!

 

[RadioFixerCLE]

He is, after all, the chief engineer of one of the most prestigious and historically significant AM stations in the #1 market.

Yes he is.

Now, in my defense of Tom, ever since WOR's IBOC went on the air, he's gotten some very wacky hate mail from some really unhinged people -- some even being personal attacks from what I understand. So, I can sympathize with Tom if he doesn't want to deal with any of this and if he does, he's going to be a bit defensive.

This being said, I'm not ashamed to say I'm NOT a fan (ha ha) of IBOC on mediumwave and Tom knows this.

I was not suggesting his opinions don't carry weight. It's just that now that the inherent problems with HD-AM are becoming more and more evident, it would be interesting to hear what solutions he offers. The Citadel order this week is just the latest development in a growing body of opinion that HD-AM is a seriously troubled, destructive concept, far from being the technical development some had predicted (and who continue to insist) will resuscitate AM radio.

I know you didn't mean that. What I meant by "weight" is that if Tom isn't experiencing any interference, or causing any interference to 'GN or 'LW, it would just go back to being essentially the same old ongoing back-and-forth argument between all of us.

When WOR and WLW did the on/off all night IBOC tests, apparently there wasn't any interference between those two stations. My guess is still that it's got a lot to do with WOR's pattern. It's made to point north and south (roughly), so whatever signal gets thrown towards WLW would be fairly minimal.

Now that you mention it, I WOULD love to see Tom jump into this discussion.

 

[4dude]

-Probably tending his 24hr iboc operation on WOR, as are the C.E.'s of WFAN and WCBS-am.

Yes it seems TOM doesnt understand and/or doesnt care about interference to other stations....

 

[RadioFixerCLE]

]Yes it seems TOM doesnt understand and/or doesnt care about interference to other stations....

If he didn't care, he wouldn't have participated in the skywave tests with WLW- AM 7, now would he?

 

[Tom Wells]

Citadel Corporate Chief Martin Stabbert's internal memo, killing HD-AM for 16 AM operations "for now," says it all:

"Because of lackluster performance, limited benefit, and reports of significant interference to other stations, please reinstitute daytime-only procedures for IBOC-AM...."

Jeez, where is Tom Ray when we so desperately need him?

This is the shortest, sweetest post I've read in a long time.
WLS is turning off the HD at 5:15 local time.

WBBM and WGN continue to abuse the ether and their listeners full time.
Since the Cubs playoff games are not on broadcast TV, the iBOC blasting of WOR and WLW along with the self-noise from WGN makes the
playoff game unavailable to millions more people, Great job of limiting coverage, y'all.

I won't criticize Tom Ray, or anyone else in such a position. Those responsible for this sorry situation are not broadcast RF engineers.
It is sad that no one in the history of this experiment had enough weight with ibiquity to convince them that this is all wrong for AM.
Too many block diagrams, not enough understanding of discrete L and C.

 

[Savage]

Yes, Dude. Tom and I have crossed swords over HD-AM. He believes passionately that IBOC is what AM needs to survive and succeed, as much as I think it could hasten the band's complete demise. We totally disagree on the issue.

But it's wrong to characterize him as uncaring. As far your suggestion that Tom Ray "doesn't understand" adjacent-channel interference, I would say: Tom Ray is the world's leading authority on what's going on in his own head. He knows what he understands; we don't.

I think we're already seeing what the marketplace holds for HD-AM. Now it appears we'll have to let this little techno-drama play out in the real world, and may we all hope that broadcasters and the public aren't hurt too much by what I hope will be a mercifully short "HD science project." (We KNOW iBiquity and the NAB will be fat and happy no matter what. It may well be that "trial lawyers" will also join this club.)

 

[LinoNYC]

I think we're already seeing what the marketplace holds for HD-AM.

Really? Based on what, a first generation of over priced and underperforming units?

Where, oh where has this ever happened before?

-A hint for the clueless (and Monroe county dwellers):In every single new technology ever introduced

Tom and I have crossed swords over HD-AM. He believes passionately that IBOC is what AM needs to survive and succeed, as much as I think it could hasten the band's complete demise.

Mr Ray works for a big-city station that is dependant on agency buys, all of whom are losing interest in stations with upper demos.

It maybe grasping at straws but this is what has driven iboc, not some conspiritorial genocide against what remains of "mom and pop" and their dollar-a-hollar stations.

Lino

 

[pqgeorge]

Over the years, I’ve said my peace on many things on these pages, including my own take on IBOC AM broadcasting. I’m not exactly a fan of IBOC AM for many well-documented reasons. With that said, I want to say that I’ve had the extreme pleasure of writing and conversing with Tom Ray over at WOR over the past few years. And while our opinions may differ substantially regarding IBOC broadcasting, I truly respect his opinions and respect his abilities as a top notch broadcast engineer. He’s one of the best. So agree to disagree about IBOC, but don’t question Tom’s abilities as an engineer. He’s doing what he is supposed to be doing, keeping WOR/710 and the Buckley group up and running. He’s a great engineer and true gentleman. 73

 

[Savage]

Sigh.

(See, Hipporadio? THIS is what makes me think that trying to reason with "a certain pro-IBOCer" is a total waste of time.)

Let's see, now:

Monroe County (New York) residents = clueless
Independent AM operators, whose P&L and balance sheets he's never seen = "mom & pop, dollar-a-holler"
(And he apparently can't spell "dependent" or "holler")
Rush Limbaugh listeners = angry, elderly people

But - wait! He left out these tired, hackneyed stereotypes:

White men can't jump
African Americans are all lazy and shiftless
Women don't know how to drive
Everyone who lives south of Gettysburg, PA, belongs to the Klan
American Indians are all drunk
Broadcast engineers all wear pocket-protectors and we used to towel-snap them in gym class

And how about this one:

People from New York City (with the notable exception of Stephanie) are rude, boorish jerks

 

[Len14043]

Yes, all-digital does indeed look promising based on how far the digital sidebands go - but you still can't decode it. I would like to see the FCC allow 700-800KHz to go into 'all digital' mode some Sunday night this month for a few hours, just to see if it is possible to decode the all-digital signal, and if you can shrink the sidebands enough to decode the digital neightbors?
How about it FCC - an all-digital test night 700-780KHZ Sunday night October 28, 2007 11pm - 4am EDT Monday Oct.29?

I'm in Ohio and I can't decode WLW in HD, and can't even get the PAD, yet I can get PAD for KMOX. So I'm very curious to see if I could get WLW, WOR and WGN, plus the WSB & WJR groups in an all-digital mode?

We've got to do something different with AM, so I think we need to do some serious experimentation with the AM band - and I'm talking now - this month! Bring in all on - All-digital iBiquity HD, Kahn's CAM-D, C-Quam, ISB, and DRM - let's try it all and see what combinations work best at night and day!

That would be great if all-digital testing was conducted at night for WLW, WOR, WGN, etc. Because time is money though, those stations wouldn't go along with it. Having some of those stations simulcast all-digital on the extended band may be the second best thing and is workable. I'm not sure if the FCC ruling allows going all-digital. I assume it is seeing that the hybrid mode is meant to be an interim system. I am also curious if the current digital radios will decode all-digital signals. There seems to be many good ideas here and I hope the FCC reads some of these posts.

 

[Tom Wells]

I think we're already seeing what the marketplace holds for HD-AM.

Really? Based on what, a first generation of over priced and underperforming units?

Where, oh where has this ever happened before?

-A hint for the clueless (and Monroe county dwellers):In every single new technology ever introduced

Tom and I have crossed swords over HD-AM. He believes passionately that IBOC is what AM needs to survive and succeed, as much as I think it could hasten the band's complete demise.

Mr Ray works for a big-city station that is dependant on agency buys, all of whom are losing interest in stations with upper demos.

It maybe grasping at straws but this is what has driven iboc, not some conspiritorial genocide against what remains of "mom and pop" and their dollar-a-hollar stations.

Lino

People grasping at straws are usually not making well reasoned, wise decisions.
As in "the girls all get prettier at closing time".

If grasping at straws is what has driven iBOC, then it's an even bigger embarassment for the AM version.

 

[LinoNYC]

Monroe County (New York) residents = clueless
Independent AM operators, whose P&L and balance sheets he's never seen = "mom & pop, dollar-a-holler"
(And he apparently can't spell "dependent" or "holler")
Rush Limbaugh listeners = angry, elderly people

And how about this one:

People from New York City (with the notable exception of Stephanie) are rude, boorish jerks

"dependent" -was a legitimate mistake "hollar" -was an alliteration, you do know what that is.


You love playing the role of victim when called out for ridiculous assertions that a new technology has failed in the marketplace based on it's first generation products.

You, along with several others set about to ridicule and confront anyone who expressed positive view of this system.

You claim that your station has is being hurt by iboc, fine document your assertions, file a complaint and if that doesn't work consider the courts.

You came on claiming your station's superior audio vs the iboc running WHAM when David Edwardo pointed out that Arbitron shows them at #2 w/9.6 and yours with a .5 you claimed that he was maligning you and said station.

Truth hurts sometimes.

People from New York City (with the notable exception of Stephanie) are rude, boorish jerks

-But you'll take our tax "dollars" to support you vacuous, dying towns.

Lino, arrogant New York jerk.