Station vs. personal library size

[firepoint525]

As I've said many times, radio can't be all things to all people. Some people LIKE repetition. There's no question that it works, and that it sells. Ask any recording artist which songs get the biggest response at their shows, and they'll tell you the ones that are fried to a crisp.

Seems like I have already refuted that "play just the hits" mentality at least once just this week! But just like the weeds in my driveway that I keep trying to kill, that argument just keeps coming back! Show me a "fan" who likes JUST the songs that were "hits," and I will show you someone who is NOT really as much of a "fan" as they claim to be. That person is just a fairweather fan. That person is the one who hollers out "Freebird!" at concerts (and apparently ISN'T joking!). That person is the one who buys ONLY the "greatest hits" album, and claims that their favorite song by that person is the one that spent six weeks at number one! Again, if you are a diehard fan, you can name (and yes, cheer for, and even sing along with,) a song or two by your favorite performer that was NOT a "radio hit." It is how you get some "street cred" with other such fans.

Don't get me wrong. There are performers about whom I feel that way. Some for whom I only have compilation albums. But I would never claim to be a diehard fan of such groups, and probably would not be likely to shell out my hard-earned money to see them in concert, etc.

Don't know how true it is, but I heard the story of how Al Gore met Courtney Love, and claimed to be a fan of Hole, but when she pressed him to name JUST ONE of their songs, he couldn't do it! I can't name any of their songs either, but then again, I never claimed to be a fan.

 

[firepoint525]

How do you come to that conclusion? The Top 50 market Jack stations locally research their playlists, just as most significant competitors do.
The "average" listener does listen in evenings... just not for as much time as during 6 AM to 7 PM hours. Part of radio's "ease of use" is in the knowing that anytime you turn a station on, you know to expect a particular style of music or programming.
In this sense, radio is not unlike a supermarket... where many items do not produce any profits, but without which the entire operation would fail.

I worked for a station 20+ years ago that had the "Jack-FM mentality." It had the automated reel-to-reel FM, and we voice-tracked it. And we got requests that, because it was automated, we could not play. We always had to tell them "I'll get right on it" or some other similar b.s. It didn't really bother me, except when we got long-distance calls from as much as two states away. We were live and local on our AM station, but did not have anywhere near the listenership on it.

And when did "nearly all stations" sign off at 6 PM? I don't recall that ever being even close to true.
You'd be surprised with the reason why many stations decided to operate in overnights, too. Nothing to do with audience, either.

You don't remember all those "daytime-only" AMs? I do, and I remember listening to them. And they signed off EARLY, especially in the winter months!

 

[R_F_Burns]

You don't remember all those "daytime-only" AMs? I do, and I remember listening to them. And they signed off EARLY, especially in the winter months!

Yes I worked for one in 1974 we were a multi formatted station true local radio trying to be something for everybody.Operated from Legal sunup to legal sundown had to protect those big city stations at night you know.

 

[TheBigA]

Show me a "fan" who likes JUST the songs that were "hits," and I will show you someone who is NOT really as much of a "fan" as they claim to be. That person is just a fairweather fan.

Which is why I say radio doesn't program to fans. We are the free sample. The fans own the complete collection and all the bootlegs.

 

[Avid Listener]

It depends on the format, time of day, and the particular DJ. And what the listener is doing at the time. Lots of variables.

Anyone who listens to an oldies station, and is hearing the same songs should try another format. It's really very simple.

That's the basic problem with Oldies as a format. No matter how many songs in the library, sooner or later, you're playing the same songs. Why? Because there are no currents or recurrents mixed in. It's those currents and recurrents, when mixed in to an AC format, that give it some texture and delay the repetition.

The problem is that the stations that play new music (CHR or Urban) play too much music that sounds like crap. Back in the era this thread is dedicated to, my favorite radio stations had playlists of several hundred songs, and they kept adding new ones all the time! They were AOR stations, and over the course of one year, they might have played several thousand songs. Over the course of an entire decades, they probably played as many as five thousand different songs. So why is it that anyone claims that those of us who liked that music back in the day, and who still like it now, only like 300 songs out of all the songs we heard on the radio back then? And, if we liked hearing songs for the first time back then, why would we not like to hear a great-sounding song for the first time now?

 

[TheBigA]

The problem is that the stations that play new music (CHR or Urban) play too much music that sounds like crap.

And yet the listeners seem to love it. None of the people I know in radio fancies himself a music critic, including myself. I'll play dogs barking Jingle Bells if it'll make me #1. I'll play Justin Bieber, Taylor Swift, and all the other people critics hate. Let THEM buy a radio station. We'll see who they play then.

So why is it that anyone claims that those of us who liked that music back in the day, and who still like it now, only like 300 songs out of all the songs we heard on the radio back then?

I don't know anyone who claims that. Most classic hits or classic country stations work with larger libraries than 300 songs. Sirius runs old Casey Kasem AT40s on the weekends. The two things I'm amazed by is (1) how corny the writing was, and (2) how few of the songs in those shows ever had any impact. Just because radio once played "Love Is Blue" doesn't mean the song has stood the test of time 45 years later. The majority of the songs radio once played were duds. Radio played them because they were hot at the time, but not necessarily great songs that stand up to time.

And, if we liked hearing songs for the first time back then, why would we not like to hear a great-sounding song for the first time now?

First of all, because we're not the same people we were then. We've grown up a little. We've lived a little. We have the context of life's experiences. So we hear music differently.

But the other thing is that radio played a lot of crappy music in the 60s and 70s. And they did so because promotion departments were discovering the tricks of getting airplay, and it had nothing to do with great music. We think radio back then was innocent, but it wasn't.

 

[davideduardo]

IYou don't remember all those "daytime-only" AMs? I do, and I remember listening to them. And they signed off EARLY, especially in the winter months!

Those daytimers still exist, and for the most part either sign off or reduce power so much at sunset as to be daytime-only for most people.

There is nothing new in that.

You also forget that most larger market fulltime AMs do not cover their market at night, due to directionality and power reductions, and have not covered them well since urban sprawl began in the years right after W.W. II.

 

[davideduardo]

Back in the era this thread is dedicated to, my favorite radio stations had playlists of several hundred songs, and they kept adding new ones all the time! They were AOR stations, and over the course of one year, they might have played several thousand songs. Over the course of an entire decades, they probably played as many as five thousand different songs. So why is it that anyone claims that those of us who liked that music back in the day, and who still like it now, only like 300 songs out of all the songs we heard on the radio back then? And, if we liked hearing songs for the first time back then, why would we not like to hear a great-sounding song for the first time now?

The only stations to play so many deep cuts and so much new or unreleased music were progressive "free form" rockers.

Such stations, with only few exceptions, lasted only until one of the Superstars AORs (or a reasonable facsimile) came and devoured them. Those stations played only the hits and strong prospects, did not experiment with loads of album cuts and only played a fraction of the number of cuts that you seem to think they did.

Most of the songs played by even those stations have not passed the test of time, and most listeners don't want to hear the majority of them today as they were not hits... just fill in the name of variety.

In the Top 40 world, most people don't want to hear 1910 Fruitgum Company anymore for the same reason... it was fun for a moment, but it is embarrassing or just not pleasant to hear them today.

 

[davideduardo]

It's also the one with the shortest attention span, and the one in which the listeners age out of it the fastest. It has been years since I could tolerate CHR, and I doubt that I could tolerate the 2014 version for long, either.

Gee, if people age out of CHR so fast, why does Z-100 in New York average a #3 rank in 35-44, and KIIS in LA average 4th in that demo? Both are CHRs by all definitions.

In 25-54 in New York, the leading AC station had 1:52 of weekly TSL in the last book and WHTZ had 1:58. In LA, the leading AC had 1:39 in weekly 25-54 TSL, while KIIS had 1:38.

Neither of your points stands up to scrutiny.

 

[oldies76]

Which is why I say radio doesn't program to fans. We are the free sample. The fans own the complete collection and all the bootlegs.

Free sample?? A REPETITIVE sample. I do not consider the 80's played on KRTH to be a "sample" of that decade. Way, WAY too many songs missing, even from the height of the demo target, the early to mid 80's (1980-1984).

 

[TheBigA]

Once again, we're not in the music business. We're not in the song business. We give you a taste. We hope to entertain you for 15-30 minutes on your way to something else. We're not looking to change the world or teach you about music. That's not our job. Everything you want is available elsewhere. We don't mind if you go there for your deep tracks. No one will be insulted.

 

[oldies76]

Once again, we're not in the music business. We're not in the song business. We give you a taste. We hope to entertain you for 15-30 minutes on your way to something else. We're not looking to change the world or teach you about music. That's not our job. Everything you want is available elsewhere. We don't mind if you go there for your deep tracks. No one will be insulted.

Fine and dandy......the more that figure out radio is not for them (because of lack of songs and other factors), the more listeners you will eventually lose out to other media sources for their music. And as for the younger crowd (with their technological iPods, iPhones, tablets...etc..) listening to radio in the years ahead, replacing the real radio generation over the years.......good luck with that.

Eventually, it won't matter what the heck you throw out over the airwaves.

 

[TheBigA]

Fine and dandy......the more that figure out radio is not for them (because of lack of songs and other factors), the more listeners you will eventually lose out to other media sources for their music.

What's your point? Do you think you're telling me something I haven't already considered? Really?

 

[Avid Listener]

Fine and dandy......the more that figure out radio is not for them (because of lack of songs and other factors), the more listeners you will eventually lose out to other media sources for their music. And as for the younger crowd (with their technological iPods, iPhones, tablets...etc..) listening to radio in the years ahead, replacing the real radio generation over the years.......good luck with that.

Eventually, it won't matter what the heck you throw out over the airwaves.

Every passing month, I find I listen to my radio less and less. I spend a lot of time in the car. I used to really enjoy listening to the radio. I don't enjoy it much any more. It seems like any time I listen to one of the stations on my car preset, they're playing another "hit" that they've just totally burned out. Some of my favorite songs now make me hit the station change button because I'm just sick and tired of hearing them again. I feel like the character Malcolm MacDowell played in "Clockwork Orange" who had his favorite composer, Beethoven, ruined for him.

Maybe I should be posting this in Rock/Classic Rock, since that's not locked into just three decades. I used to love hearing new songs when they were introduced on the radio back in the 1960's, if they sounded good. I didn't like turkeys, such as anything by the Archies, but that was part of listening to the radio. I still love hearing a good sounding song for the first time. I cannot imagine how anyone wouldn't like hearing a great new song for the first time. I wouldn't want brand new songs constantly, but one every hour or so seems about right.

And what really sucks is that even though I might only listen for an hour a day, it's the same hour every day. And it seems like when the stations go through their rotation, it always rotates back to the same songs every time I get in the car.

The repetition gets so terrible, so mind-numbingly boring that I find myself turning to the Spanish stations. I can't understand the words, but at least it's not the same old songs over and over and over and over and over.

 

[davideduardo]

Free sample?? A REPETITIVE sample. I do not consider the 80's played on KRTH to be a "sample" of that decade. Way, WAY too many songs missing, even from the height of the demo target, the early to mid 80's (1980-1984).

1984 called and wanted its stiffs back. That's whey the songs you heard then, but that were not enduring, are not played now. Radio stations are not museums.

 

[oldies76]

What's your point? Do you think you're telling me something I haven't already considered? Really?

My point is that despite what you guys are saying about the other side, the radio business, it's really not a listener friendly format, for the many fans of classics and oldies. They want more and are not getting it......That's why they are likely to leave radio for something more appealing. I left in the late 80's....I only "check in" every so often, to see what the heck is being played these days, and it's distressing. That's why I have to tune into CBS-FM on Sunday nights to hear a top 20 of 1980, songs that have not been heard in years, but should be played today, since it's in the range of your target audience. Frankly, I just don't get it. That's my point.

It was great hearing a Bob Seger classic that is nearly ignored today: "Fire Lake", one of his best on the countdown last night.

 

[oldies76]

Every passing month, I find I listen to my radio less and less. I spend a lot of time in the car. I used to really enjoy listening to the radio. I don't enjoy it much any more. It seems like any time I listen to one of the stations on my car preset, they're playing another "hit" that they've just totally burned out. Some of my favorite songs now make me hit the station change button because I'm just sick and tired of hearing them again. I feel like the character Malcolm MacDowell played in "Clockwork Orange" who had his favorite composer, Beethoven, ruined for him.

Maybe I should be posting this in Rock/Classic Rock, since that's not locked into just three decades. I used to love hearing new songs when they were introduced on the radio back in the 1960's, if they sounded good. I didn't like turkeys, such as anything by the Archies, but that was part of listening to the radio. I still love hearing a good sounding song for the first time. I cannot imagine how anyone wouldn't like hearing a great new song for the first time. I wouldn't want brand new songs constantly, but one every hour or so seems about right.

And what really sucks is that even though I might only listen for an hour a day, it's the same hour every day. And it seems like when the stations go through their rotation, it always rotates back to the same songs every time I get in the car.

The repetition gets so terrible, so mind-numbingly boring that I find myself turning to the Spanish stations. I can't understand the words, but at least it's not the same old songs over and over and over and over and over.

I agree with you.....Hey, lot's of those classic Spanish songs are really good too, no kidding!

Check out "Mary Es Mi Amor" by Leo Dan, from Argentina I believe, part of the "Nueva Ola"..New Wave trend in the late 60's and early 70's on Spanish radio.

 

[TheBigA]

My point is that despite what you guys are saying about the other side, the radio business, it's really not a listener friendly format, for the many fans of classics and oldies. They want more and are not getting it.

You're talking about yourself. Not listeners in general.

 

[TheBigA]

The repetition gets so terrible, so mind-numbingly boring that I find myself turning to the Spanish stations. I can't understand the words, but at least it's not the same old songs over and over and over and over and over.

I think I said this earlier in this thread. If you feel you're hearing the same songs too often in one format, try another one for a while. Maybe the problem isn't the radio, but you're stuck in some time warp with the particular format. Switch to an urban or country station for a few weeks. You'll hear lots and lots of new songs you've never heard before. Take advantage of all those pre-sets on the car radio. Put different formats on each one. That's what I do, and I never get tired of what I hear.

 

[firepoint525]

Gee, if people age out of CHR so fast, why does Z-100 in New York average a #3 rank in 35-44, and KIIS in LA average 4th in that demo? Both are CHRs by all definitions.
In 25-54 in New York, the leading AC station had 1:52 of weekly TSL in the last book and WHTZ had 1:58. In LA, the leading AC had 1:39 in weekly 25-54 TSL, while KIIS had 1:38.
Neither of your points stands up to scrutiny.

You need to get out of NYC and LA and out here into "flyover" country. I don't know ANYONE my age who gets into that teenybopper crap. And I usually only listen to the AC station here on the weekends when they have Tom Kent on. They actually dropped Duh-lilah to put him on!

To this day, I am STILL sick of certain songs that the local CHR burned to a crisp back in the '90s. They probably don't play them anymore, but CHR is NOT aimed at my age group!