Stations That Use Their Cable Channel For Their Identification

[Gregg]

While visiting the Fort Myers FL area, I was amazed that most of the local TV stations use their cable channel position exclusively for identification. Ft. Myers has only one VHF TV station, CBS affiliate WINK-TV. They acknowledge that they're "Channel 11, Cable 5."

But all the other major stations on UHF use only their cable positions. NBC-2, Fox-4, ABC-7. Even their web addresses incorporate only their cable postion as in www.abc-7.com

During the station's legal I.D., for a split second, in microscopic print, you might see the station's call letters, city of license, dial position and DT position.

I know cable penetration is comfortably over 50% in most places... maybe more in a market like Ft. Myers that's spread out and has UHF signals coming from various places.

But surely SOMEBODY is still watching TV with rabbit ears and has no idea why they can't find NBC-2 or Fox-4.





Gregg
[email protected]

 

[KML0224]

Here in Hartford/New Haven, WCTX-TV/DT (MY) channel 59/digital 39 of New Haven identifies as "MY 9". It's really stupid when you consider who you have an hour or so south down I-95: WWOR-TV (MY) channel 9 of Secaucus, NJ/New York City, who really is "MY 9".

 

[Tim-In-Houston]

WCNC-Charlotte, NC is on Channel 36 analog, but has identified as Channel 6 for years.

WUSI-San Diego is on Channel 51 analog, but identifies as Channel 9 (though they do have a "51" in their logo). When the WB was still in operation, San Diego's WB affiliate KSWB identified as Channel 5, even though they were on analog 60-something (62, maybe?). I don't know what they identify as now.

Incidently, just up the road a piece from Fort Meyers, Sarasota-based secondary ABC affiliate (Sarasota is part of the Tampa-St. Petersburg market) WWSB began identifying as ABC-7 within the last couple of years. They are on analog 40. It's an interesting situation in that for people living between the two markets, they recieve two "ABC-7s," WWSB and WZVN

But yeah, Fort Meyers/Naples stations are the most egregious offender when it comes to identifying as their cable number.

 

[arnoldevns]

WUSI-San Diego is on Channel 51 analog, but identifies as Channel 9 (though they do have a "51" in their logo). When the WB was still in operation, San Diego's WB affiliate KSWB identified as Channel 5, even though they were on analog 60-something (62, maybe?). I don't know what they identify as now.

This post is a great example of why stations use their cable channels for ID purposes. Tim didn't even know what the broadcast channel number was for the San Diego WB affiliate. (I believe it was channel 69 by the way)

In Dallas I have friends who tell me they saw something on channel 9. Of course, we don't have an analog broadcast on channel 9. That's channel 8's digital frequency. What we do have is KDAF-CW33 on cable channel 9. The ubiquitous nature of cable has created this situation with many viewers.

However, the problem with it is that in some markets (like DFW) there are dozens of cable systems and different channel assignments depending on where you live. That makes it hard for a broadcaster to use their cable number for promotional purposes. It is simply not done in the DFW area at all.

 

[EnbyCee]

WUPW in Toledo has just begun using "cable channel 12" in place of "channel 36" in many of its on-air promos, but mostly just emphasizes itself as "Fox Toledo".

I haven't seen any other Toledo, Detroit, or Chicago stations identify by a cable number, although some (especially Fox affiliates) have pretty much entirely done away with use of their analog channel number.

 

[KeithE4]

All the Palm Springs station ID with their cable channel number. All but the NBC and ABC affiliates are Class-A stations and all are UHF. Several San Diego UHFs (including NBC 39) ID with their VHF cable channel number as well.

KNTV 11 San Jose tried IDing as Channel 3 when NBC first bought the station but that caused confusion with the NBC station in Sacramento, also on 3. There are many in Florida who do so as well.

The strangest one I've seen is KHNL-TV 13 Honolulu, which IDs as Channel 8. They've obviously been more successful at calling themselves a different VHF channel than KNTV was.

With cable/satellite usage now approaching 80%, the OTA channel number is becoming increasingly irrelevent anyway.

KASW Channel 61 Phoenix has ID'ed as Channel 6 for a few years now (And "WB6 & 61 before that). But when analog TV goes away, do they ID as Channel 6 (cable), 49 (their digital OTA channel) or 61 (which digital TVs will still map to)? I'll guess they'll still call themselves "CW6." All stations will have that problem. How about just "CW Phoenix" with a small "KASW-DT 49 Phoenix" underneath it.

Interestingly, none of the other Phoenix UHFs ID with their cable channel.

 

[Nate Wesley]

But surely SOMEBODY is still watching TV with rabbit ears and has no idea why they can't find NBC-2 or Fox-4.

I doubt this. If viewers are watching local TV over-the-air, they've likely been in the area long enough to know (or at least discover) the actual channel it operates on. If I'm smart enough to remember that WNCF "ABC 32" can be viewed on channel 11 for Mediacom Cable of Monroeville, AL, then I can remember the opposite on-air branding.

That assumes the people you're talking about are smart enough to know the difference between 'Spike TV' and cable channel 56... ;D

 

[zumahans]

---->All the Palm Springs station ID with their cable channel number. All but the NBC and ABC affiliates are Class-A stations and all are UHF.

KPSP 58 (CBS 2) is an LP, is that the same as a class A?

---->But when analog TV goes away, which channel will digital TVs map to?

Whatever the station decides to program their PSIP stream with. The ATSC signal allows the broadcaster to define the channel map that shows up in the HDTV reciever - and that includes the channel number.

As I understand it, there is nothing to prevent the low-power CBS station Palm Springs from defining itself as channel 2 no matter what assignment its channel digital signal gets.

What will happen to someone who lives in North Palm Springs, for example, who has over the air access to KCBS-HD and KPLP-HD, both of which PSIP themselves as channel 2? Will the competing channel maps conflict?

Other nearby places this could happen are San Diego, where KSWB-DT maps itself as channel 5, and KTLA-DT 31 also maps itself as channel 5. I wonder how that will work out.

 

[dhett]

---->All the Palm Springs station ID with their cable channel number. All but the NBC and ABC affiliates are Class-A stations and all are UHF.

KPSP 58 (CBS 2) is an LP, is that the same as a class A?

Not necessarily. Class A is a special subclass of LPTV. Class A stations were given special protection from channel encroachment during the DTV transition. A station could be designated Class A only if it operated a minimum of 18 hrs/day, provided at least 3 hrs/wk of locally-produced programming, provided at least 3 hrs/wk of approved E/I programming, broadcast on an "in-core" channel (2 - 51), and maintained studios within the Grade-B signal contour of the station, or in the case of commonly-owned stations in contiguous areas, within the contour of any of the commonly-owned stations. KPSP-LP has met all of those standards since 2002, when they moved from channel 58 to channel 38, and so were upgraded to a Class A license. Most Class A licensees changed their station's call letters to use a "-CA" suffix, but KPSP-LP did not.

---->But when analog TV goes away, which channel will digital TVs map to?

Whatever the station decides to program their PSIP stream with. The ATSC signal allows the broadcaster to define the channel map that shows up in the HDTV reciever - and that includes the channel number.

As I understand it, there is nothing to prevent the low-power CBS station Palm Springs from defining itself as channel 2 no matter what assignment its channel digital signal gets.

What will happen to someone who lives in North Palm Springs, for example, who has over the air access to KCBS-HD and KPLP-HD, both of which PSIP themselves as channel 2? Will the competing channel maps conflict?

Other nearby places this could happen are San Diego, where KSWB-DT maps itself as channel 5, and KTLA-DT 31 also maps itself as channel 5. I wonder how that will work out.

You're confusing cable channel position with over-the-air (OTA) channel position. KPSP is on channel 38, not on channel 2. They only use channel 2 for marketing purposes, as they're on cable channel 2. Likewise, KSWB is on channel 69 analog and channel 19 digital, not on channel 5. Channel 5 is their cable channel number, which they also use for marketing purposes. Stations can market themselves however they want, but it means nothing to a TV set.

The FCC has decided that after the analog stations go away, digital stations will continue to map to their old analog positions (called the virtual channel number). So KPSP-LP will continue to be on channel 38. In their case, it will be both actual and virtual, as they will turn off analog operations on channel 38 and turn on their digital signal, also on channel 38 (called a "flash cut"). In San Diego, on a DTV set receiving OTA signals, KSWB-DT should map to 69.1, 69.2, etc., but might also map to 19.1, 19.2, etc. It will not map to channel 5, as that is just its cable channel.

These examples are for OTA only. If you get your signals via cable, nothing will change. PSIP won't apply; your cable company will determine where you receive the channel.

 

[zumahans]

---->You're confusing cable channel position with over-the-air (OTA) channel position.

Thanks, but not correct. I am well aware of the marketing campaigns you refer to.

---->KPSP is on channel 38, not on channel 2.

Turn on an HDTV in Indio and look at the off-air signal, and channel 58/38 maps as CBS 2.

---->They only use channel 2 for marketing purposes, as they're on cable channel 2.

Not correct, they also use CBS 2 as PSIP identification. I've seen it at the Best Buy in Indio. Punch 2-ENTER on the remote control and KPSP-DT comes up. Seen it, done it. Try 38 and nothing happens. Try 58 and it goes to KPSP-HD off channel 38, and ID's it as CBS-2.

---->Likewise, KSWB is on channel 69 analog and channel 19 digital, not on channel 5. Channel 5 is their cable channel number, which they also use for marketing purposes. Stations can market themselves however they want, but it means nothing to a TV set.

Got news for you: KSWB-DT 38 is transmitting a digital ID as channel WB-5. The engineers at KSWB have set the PSIP to display as WB-5.

When you plug in an ATSC tuner in San Diego, WB5 comes up above XETV 6 in the channel list. Channel 38 appears nowhere. Channel 38 happens to be the location where the tuner goes for the WB-5 programming when a user punches 5 in his remote control (or 69 on most sets, as a "virtual" PSIP setting is also transmitted). Of course, 69 will be reallocated for other uses in 2009.

----> The FCC has decided that after the analog stations go away, digital stations will continue to map to their old analog positions (called the virtual channel number).

Not correct. First, stations are going to be allowed to choose between their analog and digital assignments, in most cases. The channel map designation for KMVD, for example, is 23, the same as its digital assignment. KMVD-TV (analog 31) has been turned off, by FCC permission. And stations are, and will be, allowed to choose which number (or any number) in their PSIP.

Second, some stations are going to choose (or be forced by local congestion issues) to keep their digital signals transmitting from their new assignments, and surrender the old analog assignment instead.

----->So KPSP-LP will continue to be on channel 38. In their case, it will be both actual and virtual, as they will turn off analog operations on channel 38 and turn on their digital signal, also on channel 38 (called a "flash cut").

That's true, but on ATSC tuners it will still map as CBS-2.

----> In San Diego, on a DTV set receiving OTA signals, KSWB-DT should map to 69.1, 69.2, etc., but might also map to 19.1, 19.2, etc. It will not map to channel 5, as that is just its cable channel.

No, channel WB-5 is what the Tribune engineers either are, or will be, programming into the PSIP (depending if they have the newest PSIP generators installed yet). There is no requirement that the PSIP channel map be an accurate reflection of the analog or digital FCC assignment. The FCC ruled that virtual designations are a First Amendment issue - a station has the right to call itself whatever it wants - unless it causes a technical problem. A "virtual" PSIP will only be disallowed if the FCC finds it is intended to create market confusion.

---->These examples are for OTA only. If you get your signals via cable, nothing will change. PSIP won't apply; your cable company will determine where you receive the channel.

Not necessarily. The TV companies are demanding that PSIP data (including programming information and channel maps) not be stripped out of the ATSC data streams when the modulation is ocnverted from 8-VSB to QAM for cable. The cable companies are fighting that tooth and nail. But the whole digital carriage issue has not been ruled on yet by the FCC.

 

[dhett]

---->KPSP is on channel 38, not on channel 2.

Turn on an HDTV in Indio and look at the off-air signal, and channel 58/38 maps as CBS 2.

---->They only use channel 2 for marketing purposes, as they're on cable channel 2.

Not correct, they also use CBS 2 as PSIP identification. I've seen it at the Best Buy in Indio. Punch 2-ENTER on the remote control and KPSP-DT comes up. Seen it, done it. Try 38 and nothing happens. Try 58 and it goes to KPSP-HD off channel 38, and ID's it as CBS-2.

KPSP isn't broadcasting in digital yet, and won't until they turn off their analog signal.

----> The FCC has decided that after the analog stations go away, digital stations will continue to map to their old analog positions (called the virtual channel number).

Not correct. First, stations are going to be allowed to choose between their analog and digital assignments, in most cases. The channel map designation for KMVD, for example, is 23, the same as its digital assignment. KMVD-TV (analog 31) has been turned off, by FCC permission. And stations are, and will be, allowed to choose which number (or any number) in their PSIP.

You're confusing a lot of issues.

The FCC has determined the major virtual channel number for broadcasters with existing NTSC licenses. The FCC standard clearly states:

For broadcasters with existing NTSC licenses, the major_channel_number for the existing NTSC channels, as well as the digital virtual channels, controlled by the broadcaster, shall be set to the current NTSC RF channel number. E.g., assume a broadcaster who has an NTSC broadcast license for RF channel 13 is assigned RF channel 39 for digital ATSC broadcast. That broadcaster is required to use major_channel_number 13 for identification of the analog NTSC channel on RF channel 13, as well as the digital virtual channels it is controlling on RF channel 39.

(emphasis mine)

This applies to all US-based stations in San Diego, but not to the Mexican stations like XETV. There are some exceptions, but this document was adopted last month, so if you know of any free speech rulings since then, I would appreciate if you could post links to them.

Stations without a NTSC channel, and this includes KVMD-DT, do use their digital channel assignment as their virtual channel number. From the same FCC document:

For a new broadcaster without an existing NTSC license, the major_channel_number for the digital virtual channels controlled by the broadcaster shall be set to the FCC assigned RF channel number for ATSC digital TV broadcast. E.g., assume a broadcaster who currently has no NTSC broadcast license applies and receives a license for digital ATSC broadcast on RF channel 49. That broadcaster is required to use major_channel_number 49 for identification of the digital virtual channels that it is controlling on RF channel 49.

Only true broadcast frequencies above channel 51 are being reallocated. Virtual channel numbers will be 2 - 99. Channels 2 - 69 will be used by DTV stations taking their channel from their existing analog station. Channels 70 - 99 have future uses planned. From the same FCC document:

The provisions listed above assign major_channel_number values 2 through 69 uniquely to broadcasters licensed to broadcast Digital ATSC signals and guarantee that the two-part channel number combinations used by a broadcaster will be different from those used by any other broadcaster with an overlapping DTV service area.

Here is one major exception which will affect LPTV stations, but since it specifies translated signals, I don't know if this applies to low power stations which may get the majority of their programming from a full-service primary station, but also provide local programming. From the same FCC document:

For a translated signal, the major/minor channel numbers shall remain the same as the original broadcast station unless the major channel conflicts with a broadcaster operating in the service area of the translator. In that case, the translator shall change the major number to a non-conflicting number.

 

[mjlarochelle]

I had thought that I heard that some or all TBN stations were going to map to Channel 75.

 

[mjlarochelle]

With cable/satellite usage now approaching 80%, the OTA channel number is becoming increasingly irrelevent anyway.

A lot of VHFs are also seen on the same cable position in their home markets though, no?

 

[Markxxx]

I lived in Naples, FL and part of the cable ID comes from for the longest time there were only three channels you could get. WBBH NBC (20) came about in 1968 and now WZVN came in August of 1974. It wasn't hard to find any TV station in the area. Although there were translators of Tampa and Mimai stations, even presently these so called translators and low power, are weak. I never was able to get any of the low power or translators with just rabbit ears.

If you had a tall antenna, you could get Miami at nights, but the antenna had to be tall.

I think that is why it was easy to translate to cable. Because if you were one of the few that got over the air TV there were only three stations and it didn't take long to flick on two others till you found the right one.

As for the PSIP issue, part of it is with the tuners. For instance I know someone in NW Deleware. He can get BOTH virutal channel 2 from NYC and Baltimore. But another person has a different tuner and he can only get ONE channel 2 in NW Deleware. Apparently his tuner just grabs the NY or Baltimore station but not both as the other guy's digital tuner does. Maybe as the tuners get standard that limit will be fixed either way.

 

[dhett]

I had thought that I heard that some or all TBN stations were going to map to Channel 75.

You did, but whoever wrote that mistook Tribune Broadcasting for Trinity Broadcasting. Tribune broadcasting wishes to map to channel 75.

http://www.atsc.org/standards/virtual_channels.html

 

[dhett]

As for the PSIP issue, part of it is with the tuners. For instance I know someone in NW Deleware. He can get BOTH virutal channel 2 from NYC and Baltimore. But another person has a different tuner and he can only get ONE channel 2 in NW Deleware. Apparently his tuner just grabs the NY or Baltimore station but not both as the other guy's digital tuner does. Maybe as the tuners get standard that limit will be fixed either way.

What happens when the TV is picking up both? Similar to analog, where one is present for a while, then disappears as another takes over?

 

[dhett]

With cable/satellite usage now approaching 80%, the OTA channel number is becoming increasingly irrelevent anyway.

A lot of VHFs are also seen on the same cable position in their home markets though, no?

True, but cable systems usually put UHF stations, especially high UHF, either on VHF channels, or on low UHF channels, usually below 25, as cable companies usually put basic channels at the low end. Those basic channels include local full-service stations, which they are required to carry at the lowest service level, as per FCC "must carry" rules.

For example, in Phoenix, the local full-service channels are 3, 5, 8, 10, 12, 15, 21, 33, 39, 45, 51 and 61. Channels up to 21 are carried in their OTA position, 33 is on 19, 39 is on 20, 45 is on 9, 51 is on 17, and 61 is on 6. Cox also carries one low-power station, 27, in its basic tier, but no LPTV stations in Phoenix are on VHF channels.

 

[w9wi]

What happens when the TV is picking up both? Similar to analog, where one is present for a while, then disappears as another takes over?

That's up to the TV... Nothing in the protocol would prevent a set from memorizing two channel 2's - maybe after hitting "UP" on WMAR's last subchannel, you'd hit WCBS's first. Remember that usually, the stations actually broadcast on different frequencies, so WCBS is not actually interfering with WMAR or vice-versa.

But in practice, most TVs seem to have only one "slot" for a channel 2. The last one scanned gets the slot, overwriting the other one. In this case it'd probably mean WCBS would get the slot since they're on RF channel 56 vs. WMAR's 52.

My set only overwrites those virtual channels that exist on the later-received station. It also automatically initiates a channel scan whenever it's turned off. One night, we had a band opening while I was asleep, and it picked up WSIU-TV out of southern Illinois on channel 8. (RF channel 40) It programmed WSIU's five subchannels. Six channels later, it found our local PBS station WNPT also on channel 8 (RF channel 46) and with only two subchannels. It reprogrammed 8-1 and 8-2 to map to WNPT RF-46 but left 8-3, 8-4, and 8-5 programmed as WSIU RF-40.

Right now I also get WLMT Memphis (RF 31) on channel 30-1 but WUXP Nashville (RF 21) on 30-2.

 

[Alexander]

Here in Denver Gannett owned "My 20" brands it self as "My 20 Comcast chennel 3" on all on air promos and in the paper. Meanwhile KDVR Fox 31 calls its self Fox 31 despite being carried on channel 13 on virtually all cable systems in the state. They make no mention to 13 in any promos.

 

[TexasTom]

In Dallas I have friends who tell me they saw something on channel 9. Of course, we don't have an analog broadcast on channel 9. That's channel 8's digital frequency. What we do have is KDAF-CW33 on cable channel 9. The ubiquitous nature of cable has created this situation with many viewers.

However, the problem with it is that in some markets (like DFW) there are dozens of cable systems and different channel assignments depending on where you live. That makes it hard for a broadcaster to use their cable number for promotional purposes. It is simply not done in the DFW area at all.

Aside from that, there is also the fact that cable penetration hovers at (or slightly under) 50% in the Dallas/Fort Worth market -- and that means that at least half of local households will see the UHF channels on whatever their over-the-air channel is. This is obviously the case for anyone receiving the signal off the air, but is also true for satellite, since satellite receivers seem to map the local broadcast channels back to their OTA channel numbers.

I did notice a couple years back that KDAF tried going "numberless" and just calling themselves "Dallas/Fort Worth's WB" -- something of a group wide iniative at Tribune at the time. It apparently didn't work well here, since they stopped doing it pretty quickly.