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Still no Oldies in NYC?

G

Garrett

Ok, it's been a couple of months or so now, and there is still no replacement for WCBS FM's oldies format (unless you can get the HD broadcast, and who can?).

Don't get me wrong, I realize that Oldies is not exactly the hottest format right now, but for goodness sake, this is the largest market in the country. You'd think that at least someone would take up the slack by now.

Also, today I realized that it's not the format on 101.1 that is so different. We've already established on this board that in the 80's, CBS FM added currents among the 20 or so years of music they played.

What's different is the branding. Why call it Jack FM? Couldn't they have just called it CBS FM? And I didn't see the need to remove the dj's in this case. But that's just me.

My point is, CBS FM always has been a Variety Hits station, it just morphed into a tight oldies station. And perhaps, that was the downfall.

Just some random thoughts on this...
 
Infinity probably figured that keeping the station as "CBS FM" even with a "Jack" playlist would probably still give the impression to many casual radio listeners that it's an "oldies" station, whereas Jack FM gives them a completely fresh start, of sorts.

> Ok, it's been a couple of months or so now, and there is
> still no replacement for WCBS FM's oldies format (unless you
> can get the HD broadcast, and who can?).
>
> Don't get me wrong, I realize that Oldies is not exactly the
> hottest format right now, but for goodness sake, this is the
> largest market in the country. You'd think that at least
> someone would take up the slack by now.
>
> Also, today I realized that it's not the format on 101.1
> that is so different. We've already established on this
> board that in the 80's, CBS FM added currents among the 20
> or so years of music they played.
>
> What's different is the branding. Why call it Jack FM?
> Couldn't they have just called it CBS FM? And I didn't see
> the need to remove the dj's in this case. But that's just
> me.
>
> My point is, CBS FM always has been a Variety Hits station,
> it just morphed into a tight oldies station. And perhaps,
> that was the downfall.
>
> Just some random thoughts on this...
>
 
Jack FM answers

> Why call it Jack FM?

***why not? It is, as you said, all branding. They gave their station a first name and are building a new identity.

> Couldn't they have just called it CBS FM?

***No. CBS-FM played Oldies- the new station does not. In the simplest of marketing, it would have been confusing. CBS-FM stood for one thing and the new music approach isn't close to what was.


> And I didn't seethe need to remove the dj's in this case.

***Great as they were and for the same reasons as your previous question, to keep the old guard on a brand-new radio station makes totally ZERO sense.

> My point is, CBS FM always has been a Variety Hits station,

***Sorry, wrong again. CBS-FM has always been THE Oldies station. Variety Hits is a totally and completely different concept than traditional oldies.
 
Re: Jack FM answers

> > Why call it Jack FM?
>
> ***why not? It is, as you said, all branding. They gave
> their station a first name and are building a new identity.

Why build a new identity? CBS FM was a heritage name. There was no need for it to change the name.

> > Couldn't they have just called it CBS FM?
>
> ***No. CBS-FM played Oldies- the new station does not. In
> the simplest of marketing, it would have been confusing.
> CBS-FM stood for one thing and the new music approach isn't
> close to what was.
>
>
> > And I didn't seethe need to remove the dj's in this case.
>
>
> ***Great as they were and for the same reasons as your
> previous question, to keep the old guard on a brand-new
> radio station makes totally ZERO sense.
>
> > My point is, CBS FM always has been a Variety Hits
> station,
>
> ***Sorry, wrong again. CBS-FM has always been THE Oldies
> station. Variety Hits is a totally and completely different
> concept than traditional oldies.
>

I don't consider Variety Hits/Adult Hits an oldies format. It just isn't! A song from 2003 isn't old! Not in my book at least.<P ID="signature">______________
Kevin

</P>
 
> Infinity probably figured that keeping the station as "CBS
> FM" even with a "Jack" playlist would probably still give
> the impression to many casual radio listeners that it's an
> "oldies" station, whereas Jack FM gives them a completely
> fresh start, of sorts.

True. It does give it a fresh start. It couldn't be "The New 101.1 CBS FM with More Variety Than Ever" or something like that. Oh well. It is what it is.

> > Ok, it's been a couple of months or so now, and there is
> > still no replacement for WCBS FM's oldies format (unless
> you
> > can get the HD broadcast, and who can?).
> >
> > Don't get me wrong, I realize that Oldies is not exactly
> the
> > hottest format right now, but for goodness sake, this is
> the
> > largest market in the country. You'd think that at least
> > someone would take up the slack by now.
> >
> > Also, today I realized that it's not the format on 101.1
> > that is so different. We've already established on this
> > board that in the 80's, CBS FM added currents among the 20
>
> > or so years of music they played.
> >
> > What's different is the branding. Why call it Jack FM?
> > Couldn't they have just called it CBS FM? And I didn't
> see
> > the need to remove the dj's in this case. But that's just
> > me.
> >
> > My point is, CBS FM always has been a Variety Hits
> station,
> > it just morphed into a tight oldies station. And perhaps,
> > that was the downfall.
> >
> > Just some random thoughts on this...
> >
>
<P ID="signature">______________
Kevin

</P>
 
moreJack FM answers

> Why build a new identity? CBS FM was a heritage name. There
> was no need for it to change the name.

***because owning a position means branding it- the CBS-FM brand name meant something very specific for over 30 years. Don't you remember Coca-Cola trying just that? It was a DISASTER, so much so they had to scramble and re-introduce The Real Thing again. A lot of us learned from their nearly-fatal mistake.

CBS-FM stood for a brand of 60s and 70s music for 35+ years: Oldies! To suddenly change that product's ingredients and still try and sell it under the same brand name would be one of the major violations of Marketing 101.

> I don't consider Variety Hits/Adult Hits an oldies format.
> It just isn't! A song from 2003 isn't old! Not in my book at least.

***You are right- except it isn't meant to be an Oldies format. So your point is moot.
 
IT'S ABOUT OLDIES IN NY

Forgive me, my intent was a thread about Oldies in NYC, not a thread about Jack. If you want to talk about Jack, there is a board for that, and I mean no disrespect. But I wish to talk about Oldies in New York.
I can't believe that there is no oldies format in Market 1. So what's it gonna take? Who's going to swtich? How long will it be?

I want a list of stations on my desk by monday morning!
LOL ;)
 
Re: moreJack FM answers

> > Why build a new identity? CBS FM was a heritage name.
> There
> > was no need for it to change the name.
>
> ***because owning a position means branding it- the CBS-FM
> brand name meant something very specific for over 30 years.
> Don't you remember Coca-Cola trying just that? It was a
> DISASTER, so much so they had to scramble and re-introduce
> The Real Thing again. A lot of us learned from their
> nearly-fatal mistake.
>
> CBS-FM stood for a brand of 60s and 70s music for 35+ years:
> Oldies! To suddenly change that product's ingredients and
> still try and sell it under the same brand name would be one
> of the major violations of Marketing 101.

Ok, your right. Smart points.

> > I don't consider Variety Hits/Adult Hits an oldies format.
>
> > It just isn't! A song from 2003 isn't old! Not in my book
> at least.
>
> ***You are right- except it isn't meant to be an Oldies
> format. So your point is moot.
>

I thought Variety Hits was the new oldies format.
<P ID="signature">______________
Kevin

</P>
 
Re: IT'S ABOUT OLDIES IN NY

> Forgive me, my intent was a thread about Oldies in NYC, not
> a thread about Jack. If you want to talk about Jack, there
> is a board for that, and I mean no disrespect. But I wish to
> talk about Oldies in New York.
> I can't believe that there is no oldies format in Market 1.
> So what's it gonna take? Who's going to swtich? How long
> will it be?
>
> I want a list of stations on my desk by monday morning!
> LOL ;)
>

Well, I don't really see any station switching to oldies in New York City because the format is not selling. A lot of oldies listeners are now over 55 years old. The advertisers have quite a lot of power. CBS FM was losing money over the years. Unfortunatley, adds and money is what normally decides the fate of a radio station now days, not the format, kind of. CBS FM was still doing very well, but it was losing money. That is basically my whole point. Of course, this has all been said millions of times by myself and others. I don't agree with the advertisers, but it is what it is.

If anyone switches to oldies, maybe WPLJ. But, I don't really see that happening because they make a LOT of money with advertising. It would take a lot of balls for WPLJ to switch to oldies, but like I said, I really don't see it happening.<P ID="signature">______________
Kevin

</P>
 
Jack FM answers

I've seen some refer to it that way- perhaps, in general theory, they may be right if they view it as a new generation type of "Oldies" station (with Oldies being a sort of generic reference to library-based hit radio).


> I thought Variety Hits was the new oldies format.
>
 
JACK IN NY

Hate to point this out, but it was YOU who asked all the JACK FM questions and that's why you got the JACK responses.


> If you want to talk about Jack, there is a board for that, and I mean no
> disrespect. But I wish to talk about Oldies in New York.
> I can't believe that there is no oldies format in Market 1.
> So what's it gonna take? Who's going to swtich? How long
> will it be?
>
> I want a list of stations on my desk by monday morning!
> LOL ;)
>
 
OLDIES IN NY

I still say the biggest home run anybody in the Big Apple could hit would be the Infinity boys bringing oldies back to the totally-mutt station at 102.7 FM.

They'd immediately take the #20 adult station to Top Ten AND they would be a hero to all the pissed off Oldies fans who feel so betrayed right now.

BTW- it'll never happen. It makes WAY too much sense.

(P.S.: CBS-FM was not losing money at the time of the switch. I believe their revenue was projected to be in excess of $16,000,000 in '05.


> Well, I don't really see any station switching to oldies in
> New York City because the format is not selling. A lot of
> oldies listeners are now over 55 years old. The advertisers
> have quite a lot of power. CBS FM was losing money over the
> years. Unfortunatley, adds and money is what normally
> decides the fate of a radio station now days, not the
> format, kind of. CBS FM was still doing very well, but it
> was losing money. That is basically my whole point. Of
> course, this has all been said millions of times by myself
> and others. I don't agree with the advertisers, but it is
> what it is.
>
> If anyone switches to oldies, maybe WPLJ. But, I don't
> really see that happening because they make a LOT of money
> with advertising. It would take a lot of balls for WPLJ to
> switch to oldies, but like I said, I really don't see it
> happening.
>
 
Re: IT'S ABOUT OLDIES IN NY

> Forgive me, my intent was a thread about Oldies in NYC, not
> a thread about Jack. If you want to talk about Jack, there
> is a board for that, and I mean no disrespect. But I wish to
> talk about Oldies in New York.
> I can't believe that there is no oldies format in Market 1.
> So what's it gonna take? Who's going to swtich? How long
> will it be?
>

Jack is today's oldies for demos that have sales appeal.

There probably will be no 60's oldies reincarnation, given the disaster that was headed for CBS FM if they had not changed. Anyone can see the billings tumble and the loss of 25-54 numbers, so an oldies station is very unlikely.
 
Re: IT'S ABOUT OLDIES IN NY

> > Forgive me, my intent was a thread about Oldies in NYC,
> not
> > a thread about Jack. If you want to talk about Jack, there
>
> > is a board for that, and I mean no disrespect. But I wish
> to
> > talk about Oldies in New York.
> > I can't believe that there is no oldies format in Market
> 1.
> > So what's it gonna take? Who's going to swtich? How long
> > will it be?
> >
>
> Jack is today's oldies for demos that have sales appeal.
>
> There probably will be no 60's oldies reincarnation, given
> the disaster that was headed for CBS FM if they had not
> changed. Anyone can see the billings tumble and the loss of
> 25-54 numbers, so an oldies station is very unlikely.
>
David,

Your posts are always interesting, objective and well thought out. As a nearly 30 year veteran of this medium, I look forward to your posts as an opportunity to learn from someone who operates from fact and not emotion.

I would agree that we probably will not see an oldies format in New York City again, but I suspect that we will see them spring up in the suburbs around New York City. Clearly the format draws significant numbers and that popularity can only help a smaller market station. . .even an AM station. Couple that with the fact that many of the suburban stations rely upon local, direct retail sales, they have a much better chance of selling the format. Their representatives meet with the decision makers one-on-one and this gives them an opportunity to actually sell the format and overcome the objections. So while I agree with you that we probably won't see it in New York City, we may end up seeing it in the suburbs. Agree or disagree ?

By the way, I also agree with you that 'Jack' is, essentially, an oldies format.
 
Re: IT'S ABOUT OLDIES IN NY

> > > Forgive me, my intent was a thread about Oldies in NYC,
> > not
> > > a thread about Jack. If you want to talk about Jack,
> there
> >
> > > is a board for that, and I mean no disrespect. But I
> wish
> > to
> > > talk about Oldies in New York.
> > > I can't believe that there is no oldies format in Market
>
> > 1.
> > > So what's it gonna take? Who's going to swtich? How long
>
> > > will it be?
> > >
> >
> > Jack is today's oldies for demos that have sales appeal.
> >
> > There probably will be no 60's oldies reincarnation, given
>
> > the disaster that was headed for CBS FM if they had not
> > changed. Anyone can see the billings tumble and the loss
> of
> > 25-54 numbers, so an oldies station is very unlikely.
> >
> David,
>
> Your posts are always interesting, objective and well
> thought out. As a nearly 30 year veteran of this medium, I
> look forward to your posts as an opportunity to learn from
> someone who operates from fact and not emotion.
>
> I would agree that we probably will not see an oldies format
> in New York City again, but I suspect that we will see them
> spring up in the suburbs around New York City. Clearly the
> format draws significant numbers and that popularity can
> only help a smaller market station. . .even an AM station.
> Couple that with the fact that many of the suburban stations
> rely upon local, direct retail sales, they have a much
> better chance of selling the format. Their representatives
> meet with the decision makers one-on-one and this gives them
> an opportunity to actually sell the format and overcome the
> objections. So while I agree with you that we probably won't
> see it in New York City, we may end up seeing it in the
> suburbs. Agree or disagree ?

I agree with you on how oldies would still do well on a smaller station. 92.1 WLNG is local and plays oldies and still does well. Localism is what helps.

> By the way, I also agree with you that 'Jack' is,
> essentially, an oldies format.
>

I don't agree with how 'Jack' is today's oldies format. I guess you can say it is, but in my opinion, I don't think it is.

<P ID="signature">______________
Kevin

</P>
 
Re: IT'S ABOUT OLDIES IN NY

>
> I would agree that we probably will not see an oldies format
> in New York City again, but I suspect that we will see them
> spring up in the suburbs around New York City.

That is a good point and I agree. Part of the issue with CBS FM is the extremely high ethnicity of the central zone of the metro. Logic tells us the 1.5 million DOminicans, Colombians and Ecuadorians there are not really into Little Eva or the Beach Boys.

On the other hand, the ring around the center is probably prime territory for traditional oldies. And, since these are going to be local staitons that dempend on direct sales rather than predetermined agency buys, they can do a lot better with the format, if only because it is so identifiable and often a favorite of the clients themselves.

> Clearly the
> format draws significant numbers and that popularity can
> only help a smaller market station. . .even an AM station.
> Couple that with the fact that many of the suburban stations
> rely upon local, direct retail sales, they have a much
> better chance of selling the format.

Fortunately for most of America's 13.500 stations, local sales is neearly everything. Lots of formats that don't work in cities where everything is by the dmeos and such do well in smaller markets.

> Their representatives
> meet with the decision makers one-on-one and this gives them
> an opportunity to actually sell the format and overcome the
> objections. So while I agree with you that we probably won't
> see it in New York City, we may end up seeing it in the
> suburbs. Agree or disagree ?

Well stated point. I definitely agree.
>
> By the way, I also agree with you that 'Jack' is,
> essentially, an oldies format.
>

I hate to say it, but I actually like Jack in small doses. I never was a 60's oldies listener of much account, but Jack is a lot of fun to listen to. I want to see how and if it evolves.
 
Re: IT'S ABOUT OLDIES IN NY

>
> I don't agree with how 'Jack' is today's oldies format. I
> guess you can say it is, but in my opinion, I don't think it
> is.
>

Let's look at it a different way... it does not play currents, plays only songs that were CHR hits... looks like oldies, sound like oldies, must be oldies.
 
Re: IT'S ABOUT OLDIES IN NY

> >
> > I don't agree with how 'Jack' is today's oldies format. I
> > guess you can say it is, but in my opinion, I don't think
> it
> > is.
> >
>
> Let's look at it a different way... it does not play
> currents, plays only songs that were CHR hits... looks like
> oldies, sound like oldies, must be oldies.
>

Yes, but the oldies stations that we've listened to in the late 80s right through the early 2000s, played songs that were at least 20 years old. Now 'Jack' plays stuff from 2003, only 2 years old. I guess it is what it is. I am not arguing with you, but I just don't agree with the concept. ID="signature">______________
Kevin

</P><P ID="edit"><FONT class="small">Edited by radiolover78 on 08/04/05 02:35 PM.</FONT></P>
 
Re: IT'S ABOUT OLDIES IN NY

> >
> > I would agree that we probably will not see an oldies
> format
> > in New York City again, but I suspect that we will see
> them
> > spring up in the suburbs around New York City.
>
> That is a good point and I agree. Part of the issue with CBS
> FM is the extremely high ethnicity of the central zone of
> the metro. Logic tells us the 1.5 million DOminicans,
> Colombians and Ecuadorians there are not really into Little
> Eva or the Beach Boys.
>
> On the other hand, the ring around the center is probably
> prime territory for traditional oldies. And, since these are
> going to be local staitons that dempend on direct sales
> rather than predetermined agency buys, they can do a lot
> better with the format, if only because it is so
> identifiable and often a favorite of the clients themselves.
>
>
> > Clearly the
> > format draws significant numbers and that popularity can
> > only help a smaller market station. . .even an AM station.
>
> > Couple that with the fact that many of the suburban
> stations
> > rely upon local, direct retail sales, they have a much
> > better chance of selling the format.
>
> Fortunately for most of America's 13.500 stations, local
> sales is neearly everything. Lots of formats that don't work
> in cities where everything is by the dmeos and such do well
> in smaller markets.
>
> > Their representatives
> > meet with the decision makers one-on-one and this gives
> them
> > an opportunity to actually sell the format and overcome
> the
> > objections. So while I agree with you that we probably
> won't
> > see it in New York City, we may end up seeing it in the
> > suburbs. Agree or disagree ?
>
> Well stated point. I definitely agree.
> >
> > By the way, I also agree with you that 'Jack' is,
> > essentially, an oldies format.
> >
>
> I hate to say it, but I actually like Jack in small doses. I
> never was a 60's oldies listener of much account, but Jack
> is a lot of fun to listen to. I want to see how and if it
> evolves.
>

And that's ok, because it is your opinion. Obviously you know I don't like how oldies turned into now days and this whole 'Jack' concept' but I will be honest too, Jack is ok. Like you said, in small doses.
<P ID="signature">______________
Kevin

</P>
 
Re: IT'S ABOUT OLDIES IN NY

> > Forgive me, my intent was a thread about Oldies in NYC,
> not
> > a thread about Jack. If you want to talk about Jack, there
>
> > is a board for that, and I mean no disrespect. But I wish
> to
> > talk about Oldies in New York.
> > I can't believe that there is no oldies format in Market
> 1.
> > So what's it gonna take? Who's going to swtich? How long
> > will it be?
> >
>
> Jack is today's oldies for demos that have sales appeal.
That's kind of what I was tring to say earlier.

>
> There probably will be no 60's oldies reincarnation, given
> the disaster that was headed for CBS FM if they had not
> changed. Anyone can see the billings tumble and the loss of
> 25-54 numbers, so an oldies station is very unlikely.

For all of your experience, I don't agree with that. It's one thing if it were a Standards format (which has much less energy, and doesn't excite advertisers). But Oldies is no different than classic rock in that, if you don't promote it right, you can't stay in business. Classic Rock stations routinely play 60's songs and the format exist. IMHO, the loss of the "25-54" is not because of the format, it's becuase of miss-management.

And consider this: Here in Lubbock Texas, the GM of one of the clusters here refuses to do an AC format, because it doesn't have enough energy to interest advertisers. Yet, he has an Oldies station that plays lots of 60's and 70's, and is usually ranked near the top in the ratings. So how is it possible that a tiny little market like Lubbock can find an audience and make money with Oldies, and yet Market #1 can't? (Please, don't answer that, it's rhetorical).

Again, just my opinion, no disrespect of experience intended David.
>
 
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