Strange whine when I record. Can anyone ID it?

[Workaphobe]

Hi. I've noticed a strange background noise in some of my recordings. I'm using Windows XP, on-board sound, and Cool Edit Pro. I'm playing back TiVo recordings on my PC and recording audio from them in real time.

My machine is about a year old, and the sound hasn't always been there. I haven't made any hardware changes.

Here's a 1 second sample of the noise:

http://www.box.net/shared/ydrq7ka4og

I really don't want to start swapping out parts, so I was hoping someone here had encountered a noise like this before.

Can anyone help me pin down where this noise is coming from?

 

[m_c]

I use to have the same problem with onboard audio soundcards, it happened on my desktop and laptop. One thing you can do since you have cool edit is isolate the noise and do a moise reduction under effects, it can be a pain if you have lenghty audio files.
When I switched to a audio card I didn't get the problem. Also I noticed when I use a wireless mouse I get the same noise with onboard sound.
Have you checked your "Sounds and Audio Devices" via the control pannel in windows?

 

[Workaphobe]

I use to have the same problem with onboard audio soundcards, it happened on my desktop and laptop. One thing you can do since you have cool edit is isolate the noise and do a moise reduction under effects, it can be a pain if you have lenghty audio files.
When I switched to a audio card I didn't get the problem. Also I noticed when I use a wireless mouse I get the same noise with onboard sound.
Have you checked your "Sounds and Audio Devices" via the control pannel in windows?

That's interesting. I was thinking that a standalone soundcard might get rid of the problem. Maybe I should try that.

I have tried Cool Edit's noise reduction feature. It helps, but if I take out too much noise, the overall sound of the file becomes poor. Or maybe I'm doing it wrong! :-\

I'm not using any wireless peripherals, so that's not it.

What should I check for under "Sounds and Audio Devices?"

Anyway, thanks for the reply!!

 

[kentkay]

Check and see if your mic fader is up in your windows recording mixer. If it is bring it down. A lot of PCI cards and onboard soundcards have noisy mic pre-amps.

 

[voiceguy]

At my former radio station, every computer that had an onboard soundcard would have a horrible whine in the background.

Best bet, if you're doing serious work on your machine...get a standalone soundcard.

External or internal...You'll be much happier with your audio.

It's usually some RF that comes across inexpensive audio cards, and inexpensive or moderately shielded cables.

You could try upgrading your cables first...to see if that helps ( it usually reduces it a little bit ). But sometimes it's an internal noise that you can't fix unless you separate out the audio card from the built-in.

 

[raydofan]

Not only do you have noise, you probably have phase issues too. Plot a mono recording on a scope plug-in if you have it (wavelab does)-you'll notice it swings to one side, or is lopsided-ovoid shaped when it should be a straight vertical line.

An external USB card will do the trick for some elements of your problem. You need an isolation transformer as well.

 

[Goat Rodeo Cowboy]

I find it interesting that you refer to this as a "whine".

Your left channel and right channel have considerable difference in their level and in what makes them up.

There is a gap where there is no sound at about 14,000 with a little 'ridge' of sound at about 15,600. But overall the spectrum view indicates a rather even distribution.... like white noise?

Is your problem lack of desired signal? It is like I am looking at the residual noise that is present in any recording between bit of program content. If your desired program content were 35 to 65 dB above the sound in your recording, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Your whine signal is at about -36 db in the left channel and -44 in the right channel.

 

[raydofan]

Is your problem lack of desired signal? It is like I am looking at the residual noise that is present in any recording between bit of program content. If your desired program content were 35 to 65 dB above the sound in your
recording, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

That's not quite true. This example is audible no matter what the program level is. This does sound like an open mic fader in the windows mixer as well as internal CPU noise. As a person with sensitive ears-and a decent audio chain-this is horrible. A digital recording should have a near mirror-smooth wave appearance with no open channels.

 

[Workaphobe]

Thanks for all of the replies so far! Although, I have to admit some of the stuff mentioned is over my head!

I muted everything in the Windows Recording Control except for Wave Out. I updated my audio driver, and had some luck with CEP's Noise Reduction. My recording sounded better, but I could still hear the whine/hum...whatever you wanna call it.

It seems like the general opinion is that I need a standalone sound card and/or better cables. Regarding the cables, though....If I'm transferring the show from my Tivo to my PC, playing the Tivo file on my PC, and recording the audio into CEP, I wouldn't think that any cables would be involved in the transaction. Am I correct?

Is there anything else I should be looking at?

 

[Goat Rodeo Cowboy]

Try recording with the Tivo turned off. You should get nothing. If you get the noise then you can begin to conclude that it is in your computer/card relationship. If it goes away, they you are back to experimenting with your cables and your Tivo. Maybe the Tivo is too close. Move it as far away as the cables will let you and see if that makes a difference.

Some times we practice sound the same way doctors practice medicine. We run test to eliminate possibilities.

 

[raydofan]

Thanks for all of the replies so far! Although, I have to admit some of the stuff mentioned is over my head!

I muted everything in the Windows Recording Control except for Wave Out. I updated my audio driver, and had some luck with CEP's Noise Reduction. My recording sounded better, but I could still hear the whine/hum...whatever you wanna call it.

It seems like the general opinion is that I need a standalone sound card and/or better cables. Regarding the cables, though....If I'm transferring the show from my Tivo to my PC, playing the Tivo file on my PC, and recording the audio into CEP, I wouldn't think that any cables would be involved in the transaction. Am I correct?

Is there anything else I should be looking at?

Radio Shack sells an item called an "Audio System Ground Loop Isolator". It's less than $20 IIRC, and should have the necessary adapter for your PC/TiVO link. If it doesn't help in this application, keep it anyway. Good part to have around.

Cat. # 270-054

 

[therealvoice]

I had a similar, though not quite as loud, noise on the machine I currently use at the office. However, mine was always present.

I tested mine by turning off every piece of equipment and recording, then I disconnected everything and reconnected it from the PC back to the speakers, tested it with the EQ off and on and found it was present regardless of what was on, off, disconnected or connected. I switched to a standalone soundcard and it disappeared entirely.

 

[Workaphobe]

Well, I'm still trying to eliminate the noise. I put an Echo Mia Midi in my PC, and played back a TiVo recording, and I could still hear the noise. The thing that baffles me, though, is that it was a recording from 2 years ago! I didn't hear the noise back then.

I can record a "blank" file and I don't hear the noise. It's only when I record the audio from the TiVo file. In fact, the noise isn't that bad when I'm playing the video, but when I play back the audio that I recorded, the noise is more prominent.

And just to clear things up...I'm transferring the TiVo file from my TiVo to my PC via WiFi. So, then I have a video file on my PC which I play back using Windows Media Player. I use Cool Edit to record the audio coming from the video file playback.

So, the new sound card didn't solve my problem. I don't even know whether it's a PC problem or a TiVo/satellite box problem.

 

[SirRoxalot]

What Whine Goes With a TV Dinner?

I wonder if you're getting hard drive whine inside the TiVo. That can be problem with cheap sound cards in PCs.

 

[raydofan]

Well, I'm still trying to eliminate the noise. I put an Echo Mia Midi in my PC, and played back a TiVo recording, and I could still hear the noise. The thing that baffles me, though, is that it was a recording from 2 years ago! I didn't hear the noise back then.

I can record a "blank" file and I don't hear the noise. It's only when I record the audio from the TiVo file. In fact, the noise isn't that bad when I'm playing the video, but when I play back the audio that I recorded, the noise is more prominent.

And just to clear things up...I'm transferring the TiVo file from my TiVo to my PC via WiFi. So, then I have a video file on my PC which I play back using Windows Media Player. I use Cool Edit to record the audio coming from the video file playback.

So, the new sound card didn't solve my problem. I don't even know whether it's a PC problem or a TiVo/satellite box problem.

I thought I suggested an external, usb-driven card. That solved my audio problems hard-wired, sound in and out for the most part. Any remaining noise was eliminated by using the iso-trans, and looking at ground connections. That worked for me.

You also should be clearer in your description of your issue, and what you have in-chain to record with (how the sound gets to the computer). Are you saying the file recorded on the computer was clean 2 years ago, the computer output was clean 2 years ago, or the tivo output was clean 2 years ago? I am having trouble understanding that statement.

Your problem may extend beyond the WiFi. Data should be clean in and out (and I didn't even realize that tivo and the entertainment companies allowed that-silly me) unless the device purposely degrades the sound and picture sent via Wifi You have to see if there are format differences vis a vis what the tivo encodes in, how it's converted, and how you're extracting the sound from the video. There are many variables in this mix of components. Maybe a little experiment is in order.

 

[Workaphobe]

I thought I suggested an external, usb-driven card. That solved my audio problems hard-wired, sound in and out for the most part. Any remaining noise was eliminated by using the iso-trans, and looking at ground connections. That worked for me.

You also should be clearer in your description of your issue, and what you have in-chain to record with (how the sound gets to the computer). Are you saying the file recorded on the computer was clean 2 years ago, the computer output was clean 2 years ago, or the tivo output was clean 2 years ago? I am having trouble understanding that statement.

Your problem may extend beyond the WiFi. Data should be clean in and out (and I didn't even realize that tivo and the entertainment companies allowed that-silly me) unless the device purposely degrades the sound and picture sent via Wifi You have to see if there are format differences vis a vis what the tivo encodes in, how it's converted, and how you're extracting the sound from the video. There are many variables in this mix of components. Maybe a little experiment is in order.

If I'm not getting the noise when I make other audio recordings, wouldn't that rule out a sound card problem? Really. I'm asking.

I think you've summed up my confusion pretty well! Everything was clean before the noise crept in. I don't really have much of a chain. My TiVo records off my satellite box. The TiVo file transfers to my PC. I play back the very same file on my PC. And I use Cool Edit to record the sound that I can hear through my speakers. I never had the noise problem using this setup until recently.

If I had a second computer, I'd transfer the TiVo file to it and listen for the noise. If the noise were there, I'd know it was a TiVo or satellite box problem. If the noise was absent, then I'd know it was a problem with my first PC. Maybe I should borrow a second computer...

 

[Workaphobe]

After some experimenting, I've decided that the noise is being produced somewhere in my PC. It is not a TiVo problem. Since I can record a blank audio file that is noise free, the noise must be coming from playing audio rather than recording it. Am I thinking this through correctly?

Just to recap a bit...

My onboard sound was handling recording and playback noise-free for about a year, and then the noise seemed to creep in and got worse as time went on. When the noise got unbearable, I installed an Echo Mia Midi, but the noise was still there.

So, that leaves some more things to try as suggested in this thread:

1) Try an external USB sound card
2) Assume it's hard drive whine. I'm thinking that my PC's hard drive is causing the noise. If that's the case, should I try to install a second hard drive?
3) My power source might be failing and creating the noise. (Actually an engineer friend suggested this, but he also thought it was unlikely considering the fact that my PC is only around a year old.)

Here's a newer, cleaner recording of the noise:
http://www.box.net/shared/c18nfksg00
I raised the levels a bit, so it's not quite that loud. But it's definitely noticeable.

Does anybody have any suggestions on how to get rid of this noise? Thanks again for all of the responses so far.

 

[Goat Rodeo Cowboy]

Here's a newer, cleaner recording of the noise:
http://www.box.net/shared/c18nfksg00
I raised the levels a bit, so it's not quite that loud. But it's definitely noticeable.

Does anybody have any suggestions on how to get rid of this noise? Thanks again for all of the responses so far.

Hi, Workaphobe. This recording is MUCH improved over the original sample you posted. However, I'm not sure we are comparing apples to apples. When you say "I raised the levels a bit" I'm not sure what that means.

Your original sample had a peak up at around 16 khz which I think you were calling a 'whine'.

Your new sample has energy rather evenly spread from around zero on up to somewhere just above 10 khz. So it is just 'general noise' over that entire range.

Do you have anything plugged into the sound card at this point? Preamp/mixer?

With your source (preamp?) plugged in and turned on, does that add to the noise?

With your mic plugged in and your gains set as you normally use them, is this noise louder than your room noise?

I am still curious about what was changed when you "raised the levels a bit" but your noise is down around -69 to -72.

I don't know what "our fellow perfectionists" exptect from their systems and maybe some of them will chime in.

On a raw recording, nothing plugged into my sound card, my noise level is about there also. However, most of my noise is below 600 hz. Above that it is -102!

When I run this noise through my normal equalization for my voice I end up with noise at -77. My finished voice product tends to run -22 to -25 (RMS, not peaks) so that gives me a "program to noise ratio" of 52 to 55 db. I can live with that, but the perfectionist in me wants to beat that, just the way you do!

Here is the reason I don't turn inside-out about machine noise at -77. When I plug in my mic my ambient room noise runs about -55. That will pretty well mask the machine generated/card generated noise.

In the next day or two I plan to install a new pre-amp. After I get it tweaked, I will run these numbers again.