"Sunny 105.9" and Lessons Learned

[John FL]

While Sunny 105.9 is regarded as an Orlando market station, the signal is heard in a significant portion of St. John’s County, our neighbors to the southwest in communities of Gainesville and Ocala. So, in some respects I believe it appropriate to discuss the station in the North Florida board.

For quite sometime, Sunny was a station in decline. For many R.I. posters like me who know and understand the format, their performance was not a surprise. Even going back a few years, many of us cited the fundamental problems with the station and is usual it was to no avail.

Those in charge suffer from what many in those positions develop and that’s the belief their way is the right way despite evidence to the contrary. I’ve always believed ratings are the ultimate report card. Many parallels can be drawn to the Jacksonville market. It seems to be business as usual to decline with every book until some tipping point is reached before anyone reacts. By then, it’s often too late resulting in format death and loss of jobs. I never understood this obvious counter-productive way of doing business and why companies allow stations to get so deep in a hole. In particular, it surprises me that CBS Radio who I believe does classic hits better than anyone, allowed this to go the way it did.

At least in the case of Sunny 105.9, a former jock of WCBS-FM has taken over the reigns so there is light at the end of the tunnel. I was one of the first to mention bringing Pat Garrett on board. No one can convince me otherwise, he would have delivered. I’ve always believed that when a station develops a consistency in sound, that’s half the battle. While Sunny is not quite there yet in my opinion as I’m very particular about the format, I see a lot of improvement.

Music selections are subjective and often it results in uniqueness of the market and competition in that market. I’m not an expert when it comes to Orlando. There still seems to be a tendency to feature heavier songs in rotation and in offering the longer versions of the titles. At this point, the station will attract new listeners and spark some renewed interest. I can just offer a friendly “be careful” not to overdue it.

While on the subject of music, you can put me in the camp of favoring the shorter version of the song. When I presented my music lists, a significant portion of the music during the disco-era featured the dance versions of the songs. Those would not be featured. In my world, listeners would rarely hear any title in excess of 5 minutes. Overall, it keeps the pace going and that's critical for the format.

Imaging is a part of that consistency in sound I often discuss. Finally, someone gets it. Gone are those boring, preachy sweepers that talk about HOW much music plays as in their “Sunny 7 song super set.” I must have written 10 posts just on that subject. Now they play 7 songs and let the music do the talking. They have a nice jingle package practically mirroring what CBS FM does and I love it. Bravo – treating the audience with the intelligence they deserve is a great start.

For a long time, Sunny 105.9 was dropped off my internet selections – now I have it once again. I’ll be listening and I’ll be expecting a lot of good things to come. If not, you can count on hearing from me. Oh and finally, if Pat Garrett is available, I would seriously consider adding him to your line-up, particulary midday. The Jax market seems to have trouble recognizing and hiring those who can help make a difference. Maybe Orlando can see the potential I’ve known for some time and when it comes to the classic hits format – let’s just say I have a pretty good batting average.

 

[pocket-radio]

John, radio in many markets is designed to serve ad agencies and national/regional rep firms. It sounds a little crazy, but so long as management is happy with their Arbitron ranking there's little to no motivation to change. Little 22 year old Susie media buyer in Ohio, spends millions/thousands of dollars based on what a number says in Arbitron.
Her goal is to place the buy, while using a commodity formula to pay as little as possible.

The mom and pop stores mostly can't afford to advertise on Jacksonville radio stations because of cost. So station revenues come from the big fish, car dealers, ad agencies and national/regional rep firms. The sampling size Arbitron uses for the final calculations is small. You and many other listeners might be discussed with the state of Jax radio. Of a million people in Jax, Arbirtron just needs 600-800 paper diaries to tell a story. And the PPM sample size is even smaller.

Running a successful radio station is to figure out what the least you can do is, and do that while maximizing revenues! If station management can maintain and grow listeners by playing music alone, or paying talent minimum wages,then it's a win, win for ownership. Cox, Clear Channel, CBS and more have national repeaters based on this strategy. The Renda's and alike are wannabes.

Running a successful radio station, is to figure out what the least you can do is, and do that.

 

[John FL]

Pocket, I appreciate dialogue on these boards. It is through exchange of ideas and listening to all sides of an issue or concern that we all grow and learn. Call me crazy but I think it’s healthy for the business and I’m all about the business of radio because I want her to succeed.

Look, as an “outsider” I can say I have a better understanding of billing, ratings, kneeling at the alter of the “demo gods” and why some formats are more favored than others than those who are not. This isn’t said to be smug or pompous but rather to bring some degree of credibility to this forum when I speak. I will admit to not knowing many things but I have always strived to apply common sense, logic and the experience from multiple decades working in Corporate America when I do throw in my two-cents.

However, despite lack of whatever it takes to qualify as an expert here, I can never accept “doing the least you can do.” This defies logic and it’s not healthy for the business and so I speak out. I admire those who put forth the effort. It shows pride in your work. You know, maybe it’s just me, and I’m just an average Joe Six-Pack but I can recall when I was either being let go or transferred somewhere else, I gave it my best right to the moment I walked out the door.

I expect those who have a gig in radio to care and take pride in their work even if a format change is in the works or a change of management is on the way. I may sound like I’m on a soap box but those in a leadership role do need to lead by example and be more proactive and responsive to their community. I believe it makes good financial sense and with revenue as key, one has to wonder why the doing as little as possible exists at all.

In the subject at hand, if management was content with Sunny they would have left it as it was. But that’s not the case as there is lost opportunity. Making changes cost money but doing very little costs even more in the long run. I’m high on the pop-oriented classic hits format and for some of the very reasons you cite! Because PPM is coming, the format does well even with a limited sample. Doing well = being a success and that should mean something. And yes, you can keep expenses under control without sacrificing quality. Today, business does this each and every day.

Content is more important than ever as the consumer, in this case, the listeners have lots of options. I applaud them for trying to improve their product. I prefer to talk about win-win as keeping expenses under control while keeping listeners in the center of the decisions and being creative as well. There may be a lot of doing the least you can throughout the industry but it’s not always the case.

 

[John FL]

Your comments got me thinking of something else and I briefly touched on when I mentioned working hard even with a pending format change.

I hear a number of things from people I know who are or were in the business. Over the years, I've discounted some of it because there is a lot of ill-will expressed by those who believe were treated wrong. Also, when I'm told things in confidence I keep my pie hole shut. So, I will speak generally.

In my last visit to S. Fla, a no-doubt disgrunted former member of one of our Jax radio families indicated that alternative, new rock was in the cards for some time. Almost like planes waiting their turn to take off, major companies don't flip lots of stations at once - they wait their turn. So, in effect I was told that's why no one puts forth lots of effort in a format that is on its way out. Perhaps this is business as usual, but it's not the right thing to do.

Maybe I'm just of a different time but I still believe sponsors and listeners deserve better. While I can understand, it wouldn't make a lot of sense to spend $$$ to promote a format that is going away. I guess it comes down to good old core values. Restaurant owners, for example, who see the handwriting on the wall have 2 choices. One can still offer great food using top ingredients and using the time to thank loyal customers. Others can get laxed in the sanitary department, cut back on quality and frankly just not give a crap about the public. It's all about how we choose to operate, isn't it?

So, Back to Sunny 105.9, at least for the folks in Orlando who like the format, enjoy choice and variety, they have a team there giving it their best to try to make it all work. Again, bravo!

 

[Kmagrill]

I agree with at least one thing here. Generally speaking, it's a bad idea for an oldies format to play the long cuts of songs. The reason that it is done is because programmers think that alternate versions of songs will sound less stale. While this may be true the first time the song plays, it quickly fades and there's a serious down side to long cuts. Some people never liked a particular track, or they got tired of the song 25 years ago and just won't tolerate more than 3 minutes of a cut. I think that long or alternate versions of songs have a place on the air, but only in very limited play hwere they can add spice to the format without alienating listeners.

With regards to working hard for a format, I've seldom found a case where the PD didn't try thier best. Sometimes, they just make wrong assumptions for their market or were hired to bring a non-viable format to a particular town. I'm sure that there are lazy people in every industry, including radio, but most folks that have made it to major players in the top 100 markets are professionals and have pride in their work, even in a doomed format. 20 years ago, I worked in a group that had a 100 kW FM station in Albuquerque. That station was voted, by the NAB, as the #1 small market station of the year, and it had an amazing sound. Bright future? Well, no. Actually, a year later the format changed and everyone, including the GM got fired. The reason was that the format just didn't sell to the local market. Other senior PDs in our group had warned corporate that the format had flaws, but they gave it a try anyway. So, the station failed to garner singificant numbers or sales and, with great regrets, the word came down from corporate that a change had to be made. I knew the president of the company well, and he was personal friends with the station's GM. In the end, the GM had pushed for the format, so when it failed, he got blown out with the rest. The president didn't want it that way, but the board forced the issue. It was either the GM went or the president and GM went together. The point is just that everyone involved put enormous effort into the format and despite super-human work by many, it just failed to take root. Maybe in a different city, the outcome would have been different. Maybe it wouldn't. We can never know.

I suspect that, even though we might think a format is executed poorly, there are still people who, right or wrong, are working hard trying to make it work. It could be that 90% of what they do is excellent, but they missed the mark on some critical point. Maybe the delivery is fine, but the music playlist is too small and got burned out. This is very common in oldies where playlists of 1,000 or 1,500 songs are in rotation. These stations sound wonderful for about a week, but then the playlist starts repeating and after a year, 60% of the initial audience is gone. I mention this because Sunny reminds me of this situation. Every time I listen, there's a major hit record playing that has obviously been audience researched. Since the pool of such tracks is very limited, I have always wondered how long before the format wears out. The format can be viable, but, I think it needs an infusion of new tracks to keep it fresh.

There's one other thing I noticed about Sunny: They sometimes jump almost 20 years in a leap. For instance, they might jump from 1979 to 1963. I'm told that this tends to disrupt listeners. Why do they do it? Well, either the PD doesn't know this "rule" or the PD has a different theory. One thing I don't believe is that the PD or MD doesn't care. For beter or worse, they just made a different choice.

 

[John FL]

Kmagrill, as for the long version of the songs what you say is what I believe. As is usually the case when formats are tweaked, some things will prove to work and some will not. Listening to the created product is an amazing thing. Titles and their versions that may look good on paper but may not contribute to the overall sound that I believe is key to achieve.

As I will always say, music appreciation is subjective. The other day I caught the very long versions of “Love is Like Oxygen” by the Sweet and “I Feel Love” by Donna Summer. Both went on for what appeared to be forever. My feeling is both songs should be featured in a special rotation and one of many reasons I did not include them in my interpretation playlist of what would properly work in Jacksonville. Our town is very well represented in the rock arena and so my recommendation was to create a different sound from what is being heard in Orlando.

It is becoming increasingly common among stations doing a more pop-oriented version of classic hits to occasionally venture into the early 60’s. Sunny does it so infrequently that I don’t believe it hurts their sound – in fact I think it’s one of the better things they are doing because it differentiated them from the pack and that’s important. They are finally being true to what they are and they are developing that “big city sound” that I have coined as a "metro retro." Hopefully, I'll get rights to this in the future. LOL.

I’ve often cited Cox Radio’s Miami station AC WFLC as not only a source of inspiration but I am very high on their programming. Every few hours or so, the station will delve into the mid to late 70’s and feature an upbeat, disco diva. Usually they are 80.s 90. s 00's and today. It all works as the station is able to transmit energy and it shows what I believe is a respect for the audience. The average person doesn't use some time line mark of demarcation when they load their iPods with their favorite tunes. Sunny 105.9 is doing that now both in the pace of the jocks and positioning of the songs. Like WFLC, they do real retro sparingly and give their audience a treat. Sunny is not predictable as it seems the 60’s sometimes play in an hour and sometimes they don’t. Anyway, I believe they are making good improvements.

That brings us to caring. Perhaps this is another one of those things that is subjective or in the “ear” of the beholder. When we hear the term “burnout” tossed about as we do, I can’t help but draw a connection to the extra efforts that go into keeping a format fresh. Let’s keep the discussion limited to classic hits. I believe a reasonable person can make the case that when a station occasionally breaks format and runs “specials” on long weekends or introduces lesser played songs as part of a daily theme or constantly moves songs in and out of rotation featuring an extensive music library shows caring with extra effort and not taking the audience for granted. I still say, for the overall health of radio, those who make the efforts will be rewarded.

Our town has a classic hits station that in 5 years has done virtually nothing imaginative or creative for listeners who are nonetheless loyal because they are the only game in town. Whether it’s a Tuesday or a Saturday, July 4th or Christmas Day, the same songs with few exceptions play. I’m sorry, we can do better and I’m glad to see efforts exist – elsewhere. Again, if we are to use the term “caring,” I still believe some just believe in taking the money and run. Many can say they are successful. My definition for success runs much deeper and I am happy to hear that effort in a lot of markets.

 

[Kmagrill]

Our town has a classic hits station that in 5 years has done virtually nothing imaginative or creative for listeners who are nonetheless loyal because they are the only game in town. Whether it’s a Tuesday or a Saturday, July 4th or Christmas Day, the same songs with few exceptions play. I’m sorry, we can do better and I’m glad to see efforts exist – elsewhere. Again, if we are to use the term “caring,” I still believe some just believe in taking the money and run. Many can say they are successful. My definition for success runs much deeper and I am happy to hear that effort in a lot of markets.

Generally, I think that you're right. Stations that make the extra effort probably do a little better. When radio is fun, listeners are atrracted to it. As a casual listener of both the Jacksonville station to which you refer and to Sunny, I think that music selection is pretty good on both stations and is what I would call typical for the oldies/classic hits format. It's possible that your Jax station suffers from complacency. Being the only game in town, they might not have to work quite as hard for every listener. Alternately, it could well be fear that keeps them from tweaking the format. If you had worked very hard developing what you considered to be the ultimate playlist, and that playlist appeard to be sucessful, you might be loath to change it for fear of screwing it up.

Since it's all subjective, the only way for us to know for sure is when someone comes gunning for the incumbent and we can see who the audience chooses.

One last observation about WOCL: As they've narrowed the playlist over the past year, they have transitioned from what I would have called oldies to more of a classic hits radio format (emphasis on the 1970s and 1980s). They probably justify this by thinking that they attract more 25-44s by not subjecting them to the 50s and 60s tracks. In a given hour there are maybe one or two 60s tracks, and those have to be major hits. Looking at the 12+ ratings, WOCL has dropped from 13th to 16th in the Orlando market. Although I have no proof, I suspect that this is the because the playlist has been narrowed too much. First, they loose some of the 45+ listeners and second, the songs just rotate too often because there aren't enough of them. As you described, they'll probably remain on their course until a tipping point is reached and the format gets flipped. It'll be a shame if that happens.

 

[John FL]

You bring up some interesting points. Comparing the 2 stations also equates to overall corporate differences between Cox and CBS Radio and as this involves a brand, it got me thinking. When I go on an extended trip somewhere and I'm on a major interstate, almost without fail I'll stop at a Cracker Barrell for something to eat. No matter where you go, you just know what you'll get in areas you aren't familiar. That's the Eagle brand too. They have a certain sound resulting from a tried and tested blueprint or playlist of success.

With CBS Radio, their brand of classic hits has some elements of sameness no matter where you go but there are also pronounced differences. Apparently, CBS Radio allows some latitude by markets. This can result in big rewards or it can increase risk. Cox Radio is very good at minimizing risk in their programming and playing it way too safe. But there have also been cases where that extreme has eventually wound up seeing a format die prematurely.

I believe in giving a PD/GM latitude and empowerment to be creative and responsive to the uniqueness of the market served. However, I also believe that when an approach is not working, it should not be allowed to deteriate to such a point that it becomes dire.

Perhaps it had something to do with the atmosphere but yesterday on my way to work, I picked up Sunny 105.9 in my car like it was a local. The same was true on the way home. The energy was incredible. I am familiar with the PD and AM drive personality, Rick Stacey, having heard him on CBS-FM. He's far better in this environment. His banter with the audience bringing up timely topics that appeal to a wide range of listeners and with upbeat tunes as a backdrop, some of them wow songs as they haven't been heard in a while to me smell like success. I can see the downward spiral coming to an end. Without getting into a lot of detail, one of the biggest problems the station had was a morning show that in a word - sucked.

You will never hear a Rick Stacey type on Eagle. The music is the star and I don't think the talent is even a co-star. They have such a limited role and presence that I wonder why they even bother. That's another reason you won't hear them play their entire library in an A-Z special or anything else for that matter because it would increase the role of talent - even if voicetracked on the weekends. They don't believe in that kind of radio so they stay boring and safe.

In the end, they earn predictable numbers and can count on a certain share of the billing and so everyone is happy. Most listeners don't care and so we have a lot of wallpaper radio in our town. It comes down to corporate philosophy. Another downside to Jax is our geography. We are too far from Orlando and Savannah to get the benefit of a lot more signals. When I drove around Palm Beach County - a market our size - the number of stations they have is almost mind-boggling. We have 3 players who operate basically the same. I often wish we can have another in our town. But for the people in metro Orlando and for that matter all the major cities up and down our coast, you have a lot more choice and a lot more on-air excitment than we have in Jax. And those ladies and gentlemen are just the facts but at least we have alternatives.

 

[MN Maniac]

Just curious: How does Sunny show in Gainesville/Ocala vs local "Big Oldies 92.9?"

 

[Kmagrill]

Just curious: How does Sunny show in Gainesville/Ocala vs local "Big Oldies 92.9?"

WMFQ came in 8th overall with a 12+ of 3.5. WOCL came in 25th with a 12+ of 0.6. Other Orlando stations showing in the book were: WJHM in 7th position with a 4.4, WMGF, in 12th with a 1.9, WCFB at 13th with a 1.6, WXXL at 15th with a 1.5, WJRR, WRUM & WTKS all with a 0.9.

It might be notable that WOCL did beat WMOP-AM, WGGG-AM, WRUF-AM and WOCA-AM, which are all local stations. Further, WMFQ suffers from a fairly poor signal in Gainesville. It is only slightly better than WOCL's.

It should also be pointed out that both Ocala and Gainesville have LPFM stations playing oldies, further fragmenting the local audiences. WITG-LP, in Ocala, has a fairly good signal over the metro area and has a very broad playlist, which seems to have attracted a small but loyal following.

 

[John FL]

I'm not surprised about the ratings and now I expect Gainesville/Ocala to not really be impacted. It's not often that I reverse opinion so quickly but I don't believe those running Sunny have learned much at all. Their audience will grow to some degree in the short run but not to the point it should. If they wind up falling by the wayside it will be their own undoing.

Have you ever been in some public place and spot some 40 or 50 year something wearing a backwards cap and dressing like their son? It looks foolish, doesn't it? Well, I believe when 40 somethings try to sound too hip for their own skin, it comes off as phoney. Combine that with music that doesn't always hit the mark and I expect very little. Chalk this up to another example where irrational thinking happens because of obsession with 25-54.

They can do well in that target demo. They first have to respect the audience. Trying to sound too hip and today while playing a few 60's tunes as well as early 70's is a conflict. I was enjoying horse country in Ocala this past weekend. I heard a lot of great radio in the area and WOCL wasn't it - especially when they played Cocaine at the top of the hour - dear God, do they know what they want to be yet?

It's not often I complement Eagle. Sure, I'd like to see more life there but at least the talent doesn't act like something they are not. I will give props to Jax talent. I think our town has a lot of great people on the air. Anyway, Mr. Stacey, apparently you learned very little from your time at WCBS FM.

 

[MN Maniac]

WMFQ suffers in Gainesville due to their tower location (SSE of Ocala.) It cannot be moved any further north because of WAAC-92.9-Valdosta, GA. I learned this when I worked there. Any kind of band opening from the north and WAAC buries them in Alachua Co. WMFQ had just transitioned from Beautiful Music to Lite A/C when I was there and I remember getting the calls from concerned/upset senior citizens: "How come you're playing COUNTRY music now?"

I'm surprised WOCA is still hanging on. When 97.3 moved their stick south (providing city grade coverage in Ocala), I thought WOCA would be done within a year.

 

[jmtillery]

WMFQ suffers in Gainesville due to their tower location (SSE of Ocala.) It cannot be moved any further north because of WAAC-92.9-Valdosta, GA. I learned this when I worked there. Any kind of band opening from the north and WAAC buries them in Alachua Co. WMFQ had just transitioned from Beautiful Music to Lite A/C when I was there and I remember getting the calls from concerned/upset senior citizens: "How come you're playing COUNTRY music now?"

I'm surprised WOCA is still hanging on. When 97.3 moved their stick south (providing city grade coverage in Ocala), I thought WOCA would be done within a year.

WOCA has one thing going for it in Ocala that WSKY does not have - localism. For this reason WOCA has made a name for itself and will continue to serve its community of license - Ocala - and its local advertisers and listeners very well.

 

[InSearchOfGear]

John. Not gonna quote your entire post as I'm only gonna take issue with one comment. Song versions.

There are good edits, and bad edits. Most are horrendous. Good edits take a song that would never be marketable on mass appeal radio and rework it so it's markeetable. Bad edits are those done by the record company to satisfy the sacred cows of midwest Top 40 radio, where God forbid, a record should be longer than 3:00.

I'll expand on this just a bit.

My old friend and longtiome boss, consultant Jerry Clifton, has an expression. If it's not broken, BREAK IT. Most programmers parrot programming they greew up on, while never bothering to find out what the reason was behind its implementation in the first place, whether the reasoning has any merit, any relevance to their particular situation or was still relevant to the times. Most programmers are stuck on the notion that there is an official top 40 version of every song, and that's what most top 40s played. Nothing can be further from the truth. If you're from the Midwest, the birthplace of Top 40 and a region that's chronically 15 years behind the rest of the country, yeah, that's the version you heard.

Top 40 started in the Midwest, in the 50s, when songs were 2-3:00 tops, and pretty much remained that way through the late 60s. There were no edits. Enter the 70s when artists starting getting a bit more cerebral with their product and the advent of 4-5:00 songs. Midwest Top 40s pitched a fit and the labels gave in by procuding alternate versions. The theory goes, Top 40 is a cume format. Get the song over with as quickly as possible and move on, thus collecting more bodies. Bullshit. The theory was an end justification for a sacred cow of Midwest Top 40 programmers who simply wanted things to stay the way they'd always been. No innovation, no changing with the times, no respect for the music or its fans. They wanted what they wanted and they got it. Period.

Let me test you on something. "Don;t go trying some new fashion, don;t change the color of your hair. You always have my unsopoken passion, although I might not seem to care." Know the song, John? iof course you do. Just the way you are by Billy Joel. The single version omits this entire verse. A HUGE selling album and everyone who owned it heard it this way. Then they hear it chopped all to shit on Top 40. What do you think the reaction to that is? My life by billy joel. 6 edits total, 4 of them in the first 30 seconds of the song. Why? To save 30 seconds to satisfy the sacred cows of those who refuse to innovate and change with the times. I grew up in South Florida and NYC and NEVER EVER heard the edit of weither of those songs played on Top 40.

So let me ask you.... Are listeners of Classic Hits exclusively former Top 40 listeners? Rhetorical qurestion. Of COURSE not. Wrried about teh reaction of a dyed-in-the-wool Top 40 fan when they hear a song uncut? What about the milluions of people who boguth the album, and aren;t from the Midwest who were singing along in the car and suddenly realized a significant piece of their favorite song was missing? The fact is programmers parrot what they grew up on and never question the veracity of anything. This is why radio in general is stagnant.

Let me leave you with one more thing. Another rhetorical question as I already know the answer and I'll bet you don't.

Why did radio stations start segueing records? At one time they let them fade to zero, jock would do his break, then hit the next song cold. 999.9% of people in this business would say the following: "It's to give momentum and energy to the station and a sense of excfitement and forward motion. Really? BZZZZ! Wrong again. The practice of segueing songs, talking over fades into spots and talking over intros staarted ion Top 40 radio in the 50s for an entirely different reason. In the format's early days, it was on AM and generally not the best facility in the market. When the pattern change came at night, many of these stations had to deal with audible interference from Canadian and Mexican clear channel stations mising with their own audio. The practice was begun to mask foreign audio. Reverb became popular not because it made the station sound big, but because it helped mask a bad signal. If you don;t understand the reason WHY things are domne in the first place and just perpetuate them without question , eventually you will be relgeated to the dustbin of history. Try this experiment. One at a time, bring a handful of people into a prioduction room and try this. Start a song and have another at the ready. When you're 30 seconds from the end of the song, tell your participant you'd like them to do a fake DJ break for you. Direct them to the button to start the next song. I tried this once, with non on air people acxtually working IN a radio station. 5 out of 5 let the previous song fade all the way out, turned on the mic, spoke, and then started the next song cold. Anectodotally, WE think it just sounds better, and maybe it's true that after all these years it might weird listeners out to go back to the old way, but the point is, how most people in radio perceive it is NOT the reason it was implemented.

If you don;t know the WHY of things, then your approach to programming is 2 dimensional.

'nuff said.

 

[InSearchOfGear]

Pardon all the typos. No time to check spelling or fix. Can't type to save my ass. ;-)

 

[John FL]

InSearchofGear, I appreciate those who take a stand and who have strong opinions. However, I believe my views on song versions have not necessarily been taken out of context but rather leaving the readers with the impression that I advocate a one size fits all strategy – I don’t. Posting subjects on boards and expressing opinions can have pitfalls. While I try to cover all bases by being thorough, the posts do tend to get too lengthy. Simply those can loose reader interest and so I do wind up editing myself. Obviously, I should have explained my position better.

Since this subject was introduced, I had a number of off-line conversations with those challenging my view. Once I had the opportunity to explain a bit more, they understood the points I was attempting to make in the first place. Where I will take responsibility is not being totally clear but I am still firm in my belief that CERTAIN songs and GENRES of music cannot become too dominant in today’s more pop-oriented classic hits stations. So, let me attempt to justify my opinion once more.

In one of my replies in this string, I specifically cited as examples of making what I believe are riskier decisions in airing the very long versions of “I Feel Love” and “Love is Like Oxygen.” I understand what Sunny is attempting. They are going after the “wow” factor by playing titles not normally heard elsewhere. I’m cool with all that. However, I don’t agree that in regular programming those songs and a number of them like that literally eat up a lot of minutes. To me, a line is crossed that affects the overall sound and listener perceptions. For those instances where the lesser played, not as well-known songs emerge, I would go with the shorter version and that’s just my take.

I think we can all agree that disco is one of those genres of music that not everyone likes. We can say the same for rock or just about anything else. However, there’s a fine line to follow especially for stations such as Sunny 105.9 who offer music genre variety. With a deeper and more inclusive playlist also comes the danger of crossing a line sounding too heavy in any particular direction. I’ve been witness to stations who wind up dropping the format because listeners wind up not really getting into the sound where one hour it’s disco intensive and the other is rock intensive. Playing an 8.00 minute version of the type songs I mentioned will do that and it’s just not worth it.

I don’t like hatchet jobs on classic songs and I recognize the audience doesn’t either. The first order of business is to define what a classic song is. A good start is to look at the titles that have stood the test of time and that enjoyed popularity in album form too based on actual sales. I wouldn’t mess with them. Here I am in agreement with you and I have been all along. I advocate a large music library for the main purpose of airing a sampling of the songs that have been played for decades but can risk being burned out if overdone. Balance is key.

Finally, I do believe format dictates a lot of these decisions. For those who listen to classic rock, they expect to hear the album version – not the single. For classic hits/hybrid today’s oldies, it’s like walking through a minefield. Include too many minutes of music each hour with disco or rock or even traditional oldies and you alienate segments of listeners. Over the last few years, I’ve heard an increased number of stations who do the format very well and it’s because their sound is very balanced. Sunny 105.9 is not in the same league as WCBS-FM and they have a long way to go. Even with different markets, the same principle should apply not to overdue it in any one area. Playing very long versions of songs consistently - and that’s what I was trying to say in this string – will not result in the potential that is truly there for market dominance and success – especially in the PPM world where I remain extremely high about this format.

 

[InSearchOfGear]

Finally, I do believe format dictates a lot of these decisions. For those who listen to classic rock, they expect to hear the album version – not the single. For classic hits/hybrid today’s oldies, it’s like walking through a minefield. Include too many minutes of music each hour with disco or rock or even traditional oldies and you alienate segments of listeners. Over the last few years, I’ve heard an increased number of stations who do the format very well and it’s because their sound is very balanced. Sunny 105.9 is not in the same league as WCBS-FM and they have a long way to go. Even with different markets, the same principle should apply not to overdue it in any one area. Playing very long versions of songs consistently - and that’s what I was trying to say in this string – will not result in the potential that is truly there for market dominance and success – especially in the PPM world where I remain extremely high about this format.

Format definitions exist only in the minds of radio people. Not listeners.

I understand your point about playing long versions of Disco tunes, but let me dispel a common myth for you. Even when "Disco Sucks" was being screamed from the mountaintop, it applied mainly to Rock fans who enjoyed poking fun at the music. Much like VoteForTheWorsst.com pokes fun at American Idol, the #1 show on TV, even in its 9th season. If you recall, it was a movement created by Steve Dahl, then at WLUP Chicago, a Rock Station. Disco, like every musical phase lost its steam when the music did, not because the genre was innately inferior. From a retro perspective, "Disco Sucks" has no meaning. The best music of that era tests quite well.

Again, I challenge you to stop thinking like a programmer and think like a listener. Once again quoting Jerry Clifton, "If it ain't boke....break it". What's comfortable and familiar to us in the biz can be monotonous and boring to the audience. WOCL is trying to do something different. You'll never know what works unless you actually step outside of the box and try a new approach. Maybe it'll work, maybe it won't. If it doesn't, i assure you the braintrust in that building will be smart enough to recognize that and adjust the format accordingly.

While I'll agree with you that CBS-FM is SPOT ON doing the format right, exporting their approach in a cookie cutter fashion would be a missed oppoprtunity. No doubt it would work as-is in a lot of places, but having lived in new York during the very era they are targeting musically, I can tell you with high confidence that this station is VERY New York.

So, what's the difference between Oldies, Classic Hits and Hot AC? The perception of people in the business, based upon their own predjudices and sacred cows and whatever model they wish to use to market it. The proven formula is well documented. The Oldies format's genesis was in the 70s. The format played the teen and young adult music of the previous 2 decades (a very saleable demo) and the presentation was customized to replect the era when the music was new. A simple concept. A no brainer. The format began to fall apart because it didn't evolve. Up until a few years ago CBS-FM was still relying heavily on 60's tunes and sported essentially the same airstaff and approach from 2 decades prior. many people in the biz were perplexed as to why CBS would blow up a heritage station with decent ratings. The station's appeal had moved 55+. We can argue 'til the cows come home how this SHOULD be a saleable demo, but the ad agencies don't see it that way. One could argue the Jack-FM era on that frequency was more about having to pay out the former airstaff than giving up on the format. Don't know anyone who was really surprised when the format was revived and contempoized.

Personally I don't like the "Oldies" handle. Not because I think it makes people feel old, that's just bullshit radio theory invented by the business. I feel the label is corny and unecessary. there are those in this business who firmly believe you have to explain to the audience what you are if you want them to listen. More bullshit theory. The music and presentation tell the story. We label formats for ourselves and the agencies. There were quite a few Top 40s calling themselves "XXXX's #1 top 40 station", ON AIR recently. Superfluous verbage that has no meaning to the listener, who could care less how we categorize and pieonhole stations and formats.

It all comes down to those sacerd cows that many in broadcasting hold near and dear. As evidenced by the resurgence of CBS-FM, the formula still works, but ONLY if it's presented in a way that's relevant to the era of the demo you're trying to reach. The old CBS-FM sounded like a revived WABC of the 60s. the NEW CBS-FM sounds like a revival of the 80s era Z100. It's just common sense. Decide what demo you're going after and recreate their wonder years, both musically and in presentation.

And don't get me started on jingles..... Another favorite of radio old-timers. If you're gonna use 'em, have the balls to step outside the box and create something NEW, not the same rehashed 1955 soap commercial soundalikes we've been forced to endure the past 40 years. There's no such thing as a "Jingle Sound", except in the minds of people who refuse to part with their past, which can be extremely damaging if you're 20 years older than the demo you're trying to appeal to. No crime in being older. I'm pushing 50 myself. It's the foisting of the sound and approach of your era upon much younger demos who don't care about your era. Using Jerry Clifton again as an example, the man is 62 years old. His stations don't sound like anything he grew up on. The reason for that is an intellgent approach to programming, which is to evolve with the times.

Think about it.

 

[John FL]

You appear to have a lot of anger. However, I believe it is misplaced for both this subject and in the direction it was thrown.

It’s time to put some things in perspective. I am nothing more than a humble correspondent posting opinions on a board. I don’t have the power to change anything nor have I contributed to what you hear or the overall state of radio. I AM a listener and as much as you may think I need to remove a programming hat, listeners after all respond to programming. If it’s good and the music is what they like, they will listen. If the programming sucks, a lot of other things unravel. The issue is not with me or you, the biggest problem is there are so few opinions guiding radio and I have discussed that to death.

Whether it’s real or imaginary, I feel readers on this board know where I stand. Some may not agree and some may think of me as some royal pain in the butt. However, I believe I have succeeded in getting people to at least think – they don’t have to agree but I believe it's healthy for the business. So, I have thought about a good deal of what you say and you have your opinions and I have mine so I believe it’s time to let it go.

As far as Sunny 105.9, I want them to succeed more than you can imagine. In the end, the report card called ratings will be the judge. I believe they have made errors and I have pointed them out wearing a listener hat. To me, those on the air who are well into their 40s who try to act so hip and slick are phony. That turns listeners off. People want those on the air to speak in a normal voice and to actually – communicate – which means they need to be understood. Forget all the rapid, rhythmic crap that really insults listener intelligence. In our market, there was a guy on in the afternoon on the former 80s station – in fact I think he was the PD – who talked so rapidly and unnatural that frequently I had no idea what he was saying. So this is broadcasting today? No thank you.

Besides the spot-on programming, CBS FM gets extremely high marks in their stellar talent line-up. They do something extraordinary – they communicate. Another reason I’m so high on them is they don’t seem to forget that great talent deserves a place as long as they continue to earn that place – and that’s the way it should be. Bob Shannon has been in broadcasting for well over 40 years. He no longer sounds like a spring chicken but the guy knows his craft. If Bob was almost anywhere else – he would have been fired because of his age. His skills and ability to communicate to that one listener where they really are made to feel special would not have mattered elsewhere. That’s another reason why I say, Sunny 105.9 is not in the same league. They have no earned that place - yet. Again, that’s just my opinion.

Is CBS FM very New York? Perhaps the banter is, especially with the Yiddish stuff from Mr. G, but you know it goes beyond that – and it’s the programming. They have it nailed and the formula of playing the number of 60s, 70s and 80s each hour as they do to me is a prototype of success for the format that I very strongly believe can be taken elsewhere. Sunny chooses to be heavy into the 80s. That’s their choice and that’s what it’s all about. Again, their success will be important for the format especially for anyone who may even wind up thinking about doing it in my own backyard. That gives listeners choice and that has been my message from Day One.

We have choice to listen to what we like, no matter where the station originates. Listeners have a lot more power than you think so in the end, I do enjoy my role and my place.

 

[InSearchOfGear]

You appear to have a lot of anger.

None whatsoever. I use all caps and colorful metaphors for emphasis only.

It’s time to put some things in perspective.

That's what I'm trying to do. Are you listening?

I am nothing more than a humble correspondent posting opinions on a board. I don’t have the power to change anything nor have I contributed to what you hear or the overall state of radio. I AM a listener and as much as you may think I need to remove a programming hat, listeners after all respond to programming.

Actually, that's incorrect. You are not "just" a listener. By posting here and pontificating to such a degree, you have crossed the line from listener to enthusiast. As an enthusiast you have the same passion for radio that people actually in the business have for it, but with only a peripheral understanding of how things really work behind the scenes.

If it’s good and the music is what they like, they will listen. If the programming sucks, a lot of other things unravel. The issue is not with me or you, the biggest problem is there are so few opinions guiding radio and I have discussed that to death.

My only issue with you is that your "opinions" don't shed light on any new ideas. As we all make the transistion from listener to enthusiast to industry worker, we all have the same perspective you have in the same stage of our development. Not a very broad one, and I don't mean that to be insulting in any way. I would not have engaged you in the first place if I didn't think you had the capacity to understand that there's more to it than you're presently privy to. You're obviously intelligent and articulate and have passion for radio, but at the moment you're just parroting what you've been told by others in this business.

Whether it’s real or imaginary, I feel readers on this board know where I stand. Some may not agree and some may think of me as some royal pain in the butt. However, I believe I have succeeded in getting people to at least think – they don’t have to agree but I believe it's healthy for the business. So, I have thought about a good deal of what you say and you have your opinions and I have mine so I believe it’s time to let it go.

Again, present a new idea or keep an open mind when you hear something on the radio that doesn't fit your narrow understanding. Not meaning to sound condescending here, so please do not take it that way. Understand also that by engaging you on this topic I am "broadcasting" my perspective. You're not the only one reading this board.

As far as Sunny 105.9, I want them to succeed more than you can imagine. In the end, the report card called ratings will be the judge. I believe they have made errors and I have pointed them out wearing a listener hat.

Nope. You're not an average listener. You know too much. You're an enthusiast. Your perspective is different than an average listener. You're still in the "Look at me, I'm not in radio and I know so much" stage.

To me, those on the air who are well into their 40s who try to act so hip and slick are phony. That turns listeners off. People want those on the air to speak in a normal voice and to actually – communicate – which means they need to be understood. Forget all the rapid, rhythmic crap that really insults listener intelligence. In our market, there was a guy on in the afternoon on the former 80s station – in fact I think he was the PD – who talked so rapidly and unnatural that frequently I had no idea what he was saying. So this is broadcasting today? No thank you.

Age is unimportant. Understanding your target demo IS. The new Program Director at WOCL is a market veteran who took an also ran radio station with no budget and a rag-tag staff head to head with an established behemoth and unseated them at #1 in about 6 months, and continued beating them for the next several years. He grew up in the market. He knows Orlando and he's dealing with the same audience, only now aged into WOCL's target demo. If there is anyone who knows how to communicate with them, it's Rick Stacy. By the way, the competitor he bested in the 80s is now his boss and CBS-FM PD. Brian Thomas. I think between the 2 of these guys they'll be able to figure out what to do with this station.

Besides the spot-on programming, CBS FM gets extremely high marks in their stellar talent line-up. They do something extraordinary – they communicate. Another reason I’m so high on them is they don’t seem to forget that great talent deserves a place as long as they continue to earn that place – and that’s the way it should be. Bob Shannon has been in broadcasting for well over 40 years. He no longer sounds like a spring chicken but the guy knows his craft. If Bob was almost anywhere else – he would have been fired because of his age. His skills and ability to communicate to that one listener where they really are made to feel special would not have mattered elsewhere. That’s another reason why I say, Sunny 105.9 is not in the same league. They have no earned that place - yet. Again, that’s just my opinion.

Rome wasn't built in a day. neither was CBS-FM. And, chances are if you're this enamored of CBS-FM, you'll probably never be satisfied with WOCL. They will never be sound-a-likes.

Is CBS FM very New York?

Absolutely!

Perhaps the banter is, especially with the Yiddish stuff from Mr. G, but you know it goes beyond that – and it’s the programming. They have it nailed and the formula of playing the number of 60s, 70s and 80s each hour as they do to me is a prototype of success for the format that I very strongly believe can be taken elsewhere. Sunny chooses to be heavy into the 80s. That’s their choice and that’s what it’s all about. Again, their success will be important for the format especially for anyone who may even wind up thinking about doing it in my own backyard. That gives listeners choice and that has been my message from Day One.

This is where I take issue with you. There are many (not that many anymore) brillieantly programmed radio stations who dominate their market, who if you dropped into other markets would fail. If you took Z100 New York in 1983 and simulcast it in Miami, it would not been relevant to that market and might not have seen the same or any success. Music selection has nothing to do with national charts. The charts are an amalgum of musical diversity on a national scale.

We have choice to listen to what we like, no matter where the station originates. Listeners have a lot more power than you think so in the end, I do enjoy my role and my place.

And I hope you'll continue to play a role on this board. What I'd like to see from you though is not more of the same old, but a freshened perspective and a more open mind. Everything you hold near and dear about how radio is presented started off as a new idea that someone resisted. Think about that for a minute. Someday, many who are now presenting a fresh approach will be clinging to THEIR way of doing things and fighting innovation from the next generation of programmers. "Free your mind, and the rest will follow" -En Vogue

 

[John FL]

Gear, You have taken the time and you have made considerable efforts in both making your points and in challenging me to think. Well, I have thought about a good number of things. When I consider what I have written here over the years, I would be remiss to never admit being wrong. However, when I also consider the central themes of many of my posts, I stand by them. I do believe in what I preach. The horrendous treatment of talent, uninspired programming, unethical business operations, incompetence that results in format demise and lack of format variety for a market that is very diverse and deserving of better have all been subjects worthy of discussion.

When you talk about the presentation of new ideas, I believe this "enthusiast" has risen to the occasion many times. I have made the case as best I was able to provide format alternatives to the listeners of Jacksonville. Can I do better? I sure as hell can. Looking back, I will admit that I should have taken different paths and not made some issues personal and totally negative. Perfect I am not, but I do have the capacity to learn and I really am receptive to new ideas. Sometimes, these things just don't happen overnight for me. In my long term career, my personal performance review almost always said I think outside the box etc. etc.

Where I will agree with you is that I don’t have all the facts as it applies to radio. But I don’t want to use that as an excuse because I’m not one to make excuses. Your perception of me as someone who needs to bring forth new ideas is just that – it’s your perception. For me, it’s more about philosophy that has brought me a lot of success in my personal work life and it’s embracing those in radio who took a conservative approach to programming.

You mentioned Jerry Clifton a number of times. Perhaps he is a personal hero of yours and that’s fine. I’ve had mine too. I know of Jerry’s efforts, especially in the mid 70’s on 99X. As you could probably figure, I was routing for the other guys on WABC. In many ways I am a traditionalist and I don’t embrace change early on in radio but then I do see the light. Jerry was the right man at the right time on the X. He was the future and he was successful. While I didn’t appreciate the guy way back when, Jerry made history. My personal hero was Rick Sklar. He made history too. Here’s a case where two different approaches worked in what became two distinct situations. It’s all about diversity of opinion in achieving success and radio had a lot of it back then and the industry needs more of it today.

I fell into an error of judgment as it applies to Sunny 105.9 and I will admit that. Sunny needs to stand on its own and not be a reincarnation of CBS FM. I allowed my own bias and personal taste to affect my judgment. As you probably know, Brian Thomas is my personal radio hero of today. Thank you for sharing Rick Stacy’s success story of the Orlando market. I was not aware of that. I heard Rick a number of times on CBS FM and I let my opinion of his on-air style affect my judgment of his abilities too. That was wrong. I will take a wait and see approach to how they do and I do agree, the station is in good hands. Often, I’ve said radio has problems with doing things one way and not listening. I fell into a little trip here as I was no better than those I often criticize.

Perhaps as little as 3 years ago, I was dead-set against any pop-oriented classic hits station playing any 80s music. Today, I understand the reality of that unless the station is non-commercial or maybe on some 5000 w signal. The economic reality and need to perform well in 25-54 is 80s have to be a part of the mix. Where Sunny is today musically, I’m sure I’ll be there in a year or two. I don’t consider my radio interpretations as being wrong or outdated or out of step, it’s just a philosophy I follow. The reality is there are still a number of stations in the country who market themselves as the greatest hits of the 60s and 70s ONLY. I respect their decision to do what they believe is correct but I do believe for myself, I recognize when changes in aproaches need to take place.

I guess all of this is to demonstrate that I’m somewhere in the middle as far as how I see radio. Maybe I’m not considered cutting edge but it’s who I am and I can’t pretend to be something I am not. You talked about if something’s not broke, break it. I worked for some like that and it’s not where I see myself. I’ve never been one to totally embrace the status quo but sometimes the status quo is where business is on a timeline. There’s a balance and there’s a skill involved to be proactive enough to anticipate issues without making change for the sake of change only. Some managers I worked for felt it was all about them and the more they did, the more they got noticed. Change for the sake of change is not something I subscribe to so I suppose on this point, we disagree.

It’s not often that anyone responds to anything I say. You have taken an interest in me as well and I really do appreciate that. You have reminded me of my own bias or my wanting to recapture something that was special to me does not have relevance in making a business decision. It is all about target audience after all. I’m convinced we have a very big hole in the Jacksonville market. What happens next, who knows? You used the term “enthusiast” and I really don’t feel very motivated. I want more but I don’t know what that ‘more” is. But at any rate, I wanted to be courteous enough to respond. Until we get some solid ratings info, I am putting this subject to bed because I have no more to say.

Finally, today is my birthday. I only say that because no matter how old we get, we still have a lot to learn. On this day, I can only say thank you for recognizing radio knowledge and really the faith and confidence you have placed in me. It is a gift gladly received. We may see the total picture a little differently but I believe love of radio is a tie that binds. Success can be reached by many different avenues. In my life, I have enjoyed the road less travelled when appropriate and it got me to my destination, sometimes even ahead of those who took the main road. I've viewed radio the same way.