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Sunny Sets Thursday

> From AllAccess.com:
>
> Rumors become reality as CLEAR CHANNEL AC KEGL (SUNNY
> 97.1)/DALLAS will flip to Regional Mexican as 97-1 LA
> PRECIOSA focusing on hits from the 70's , 80's, and 90's on
> THURSDAY morning at 6a (CT).

If you read the board the other day, you'll note that David Eduardo was the first to mention the switch:

> > "How about Preciosa 97.1 over Labor Day weekend, though."

He nailed the switch but not the date, of course, and it apparently didn't sink in with most of us that CC would actually do this. I had suspected something was in the works, but I'm almost as stunned by this news as I was when they blew up the Eagle with a lame 70's based AC format. They could have saved a lot of time and trouble if they had waited a little longer and bypassed Sunny altogether.
 
Re: Why is that racist?

> Any more so than me saying all we need is another freakin'
> country station? Does that mean I was bigoted against
> whites when I said that?
>
> 97.1 becomes another dead spot on the dial that English
> speaking listeners will avoid. Nobody that speaks English
> as a primary language will get very excited about another
> foreign language station. That's not racist its just fact.
> Any more than a rock fan will be excited about a country
> station. Just not interested, don't care, don't even care
> that I don't care. My 97.1 preset goes to KLAK or KNIN -
> both of which come in really well now that I did the narrow
> ceramic filter trick in my car radio.
>

Yeah.. Just what DFW needs.. Another damn Mexican station. I have a real problem with companies that are bandwagon jumpers, and that's my compaint with 97.1 becoming yet another "dead spot" as Bruce put it. Percentage-wise, aren't there still more english speaking people by far in DFW? Why do we need yet another Mexican format?

On the subject of Sunny, that was a total joke from the beginning. It had no purpose. There's others doing the same thing, and much better being in format much longer than 97.1. Sunny was an insult to the heritage of what was once a great station. Some total DUMBASS in CC figured they could just throw this piece of crap on the air and expect to steal numbers from KVIL, and others. Guess that didn't happen, did it? Now they are going to try the same thing with a Mexican format. If it's as pathetically programmed as "Sunny", they will fail miserably again. Shame on Nationwide and shame on Clear Channel for ruining what was once a legendary property in Ft. Worth/Dallas. Most of all, shame on Joel Folger for effectively ruining KEGL when he was P.D. of it, jacking with the format, and ultimately pushing them into the harder rock pigeon-hole that has little revenue possibilities. I personally hope his Bob-FM crap fails miserably. It's hard for me to believe anyone would use him or his advice for any station they wanted to win with.

They aught to play Wall of Vodoo - Mexican Radio for them on the way out.

What a waste of 100,000 watt electric bill.
<P ID="signature">______________
--- THE Insultant ---</P>
 
> This may also be an ecomonic move on Clear Channel's part.
>
> I'm not sure how much of "Sunny's" (KEGL-97.1) broadcast day
> featured live announcers, but being in a major market, it's
> possible it had live announcing for between 14 and 19 hours
> a day on weekdays and additional hours on weekends.
>
> By contrast, with the switch to La Presciosa, KEGL will only
> be live and local for about eight hours a day on weekdays
> (and maybe no local/live programming on weekends).
>
> There will be fewer hours of local programming on KEGL with
> likely, a corresponding reduction in expenses since there
> will be fewer on-air people.
>
> After all, the major reason for the rapid growth of the
> "Jack" format (and it's clones) is that the "Jack"-type
> format has no live announcers, which eliminates a major
> percentage of a radio station's payroll.
>

The sun set on KEGL a long time ago. Joel Folger, and later Nationwide did a fine job of that. What a shame..
<P ID="signature">______________
--- THE Insultant ---</P>
 
> This may also be an ecomonic move on Clear Channel's part.
>
> I'm not sure how much of "Sunny's" (KEGL-97.1) broadcast day
> featured live announcers, but being in a major market, it's
> possible it had live announcing for between 14 and 19 hours
> a day on weekdays and additional hours on weekends.
>
> By contrast, with the switch to La Presciosa, KEGL will only
> be live and local for about eight hours a day on weekdays
> (and maybe no local/live programming on weekends).
>
> There will be fewer hours of local programming on KEGL with
> likely, a corresponding reduction in expenses since there
> will be fewer on-air people.
>
> After all, the major reason for the rapid growth of the
> "Jack" format (and it's clones) is that the "Jack"-type
> format has no live announcers, which eliminates a major
> percentage of a radio station's payroll.
>

From what I've heard, salaries and payroll have nothing to do with it. Someone said KVIL may flip? Just a prediction from them, but if that happend, who would go AC? Mix 1029?<P ID="signature">______________
Check my website www.freewebs.com/radiostuffandnews
</P>
 
> If you read the board the other day, you'll note that David
> Eduardo was the first to mention the switch:
>
> > > "How about Preciosa 97.1 over Labor Day weekend,
> though."
>


Yes David was the first one to say it was going to happen. But a few hours before on the "The sun is setting" thread (currently on page 2) when everyone was convinced that Sunny would go Hurban I said that I would bet on them going Preciosa over Hurban.

Also, as early as 7/31 on the "Sunny Flip? Twister going away?" thread (currently on page 6) I first suggested that Sunny might switch to Preciosa.
 
> > If you read the board the other day, you'll note that
> David
> > Eduardo was the first to mention the switch:
> >
> > > > "How about Preciosa 97.1 over Labor Day weekend,
> > though."
> >
>
>
> Yes David was the first one to say it was going to happen.
> But a few hours before on the "The sun is setting" thread
> (currently on page 2) when everyone was convinced that Sunny
> would go Hurban I said that I would bet on them going
> Preciosa over Hurban.
>
> Also, as early as 7/31 on the "Sunny Flip? Twister going
> away?" thread (currently on page 6) I first suggested that
> Sunny might switch to Preciosa.
>

Well, it looks like your predictions were correct! Good work, lol.
<P ID="signature">______________
Check my website www.freewebs.com/radiostuffandnews
</P>
 
Look at the bigger picture -- Hispanic growth will change all of Texas life -- not just radio

> Yeah.. Just what DFW needs.. Another damn Mexican station.
> I have a real problem with companies that are bandwagon
> jumpers, and that's my compaint with 97.1 becoming yet
> another "dead spot" as Bruce put it. Percentage-wise, aren't
> there still more english speaking people by far in DFW?


Yes, but the Hispanic population is growing rapidly and will change all aspects of Texas life in the coming years just as it did in California.

According to the 1990 census, one in five Dallas residents were of Hispanic origin. By 2000, that number has increased to one in three.

Today, the Hispanic population is approaching 36 percent in Dallas.

And the Hispanic population is young -- the median age is 26 in Dallas, compared to 30 for blacks and 37 for whites.

Get the picture for radio?

The changes were evident quickly in California.

Just a few years ago, most statewide offices were held by Republicans. Today, nearly all statewide officials in California are Democrats except for the governor who, of course, won a recall election against an extremely unpopular Gray Davis.

Regarding radio, people are overreacting. Roughly in the DFW area, stations programmed to a predominantly Hispanic audience are outnumber more than 10 to 1 if you count all signals heard in some part of either the Dallas and/or Fort Worth area.
 
Why don't we just give up now and return all the Southern border States back to Mexico? Our elected officials won't do anything to fix things. Political correctness has run amuck to the point that no one else dare say anything lest they be called rastist. We're in the mess we're in because people are breaking the law in epidemic proportions. You can't have rights without responsibilities. This is still America right? We speak ENGLISH. Enough already.

> This is NOT just another Hispanic station. It is very
> successful in other markets and has the potential to shake
> the ratings up in DFW. Too many people on these boards look
> at radio from a personal taste perspective instead of
> looking at the big picture.
 
And your point is?

> Why don't we just give up now and return all the Southern
> border States back to Mexico? Our elected officials won't do
> anything to fix things. Political correctness has run amuck
> to the point that no one else dare say anything lest they be
> called rastist. We're in the mess we're in because people
> are breaking the law in epidemic proportions. You can't have
> rights without responsibilities. This is still America
> right? We speak ENGLISH. Enough already.


Honestly, I fail to see your point.

You talk about immigration, and this thread refers simply to a new Hispanic station that has the potential to make its owners a lot more money than the previous format.

If you owned a business -- any business -- would you prefer to make more or less money?

Yes, I harp about it because it is so simple.

Radio is a BUSINESS!

It is not your personal iPod.
 
Re: And your point is?

Well Batman it's no suprise that we disagree.

I technically have the technical/business knowledge to set up a porn site. I could go into business as a spammer, a telemarketer or a casino owner. I could sell loans to people that otherwise couldn't get a loan because of their bad credit rating and charge them outrageous interest fees. I could go on and on. I COULD probably make a boatload of money off these types of ventures that are certainly not illegal, but that I find morally reprehensible. Just because I can do something, doesn't mean that I should. If I went to Germany, I would be expected to speak German. If I went to France, I would be expected to speak French. If I went to Russia, I would be expected to speak Russian, etc, etc, etc. Why should it be any different here? When you have a group of CRIMINALS crossing the border ILLEGALLY and putting an enormous strain on our economy, why should we pander to them? Everyone says that we get cheap goods because of their labor, but we pay the price through higher taxes. It used to be that as the cost of living rose, wages rose. Now you have groups of criminals coming to our country willing to work for $5.00/hour because they don't have to pay taxes and they can cram 10 of them into an apartment and still send a majority of their paycheck back to Mexico. Can you live on $5.00/hour - no! They are putting a huge burden on our health system, in most cases gettting better/cheaper health care than you. Who pays for that? You do. They are putting a huge strain on our education system as schools are forced to dumb down the curiculum to accomodate those who are way behind. Who's footing the bill for all the extra strain on our police, fire, city services and roads? You are. Who's getting all the state funded welfare? They are. And they are not paying one dime into the system. It's like a leech attaching to a host organism and only taking for it's own benefit and giving back nothing in return. Why should the offspring of criminals be awarded American citizenship because these criminals were lucky enough to jump the border and procreate? All privileges, no responsibility. So excuse me if I think we shouldn't pander to criminals. Again - this is America - we speak English. Last time I checked, it was still a requirement of American citizenship that you be able to speak, read/write English. So I'm not talking about all the people that are here legally to which it is a slap in the face to allow all these people to come here illegally. And if I came up to you with a gun and robbed you, you wouldn't hate me because I was white, you'd hate that I was a thief that took something that didn't belong to me.


> Honestly, I fail to see your point.
>
> You talk about immigration, and this thread refers simply to
> a new Hispanic station that has the potential to make its
> owners a lot more money than the previous format.
>
> If you owned a business -- any business -- would you prefer
> to make more or less money?
>
> Yes, I harp about it because it is so simple.
>
> Radio is a BUSINESS!
>
> It is not your personal iPod.
> <P ID="edit"><FONT class="small">Edited by the80sguy on 08/23/05 04:27 AM.</FONT></P>
 
> > Yes David was the first one to say it was going to happen.
> > But a few hours before on the "The sun is setting" thread
> > (currently on page 2) when everyone was convinced that
> Sunny
> > would go Hurban I said that I would bet on them going
> > Preciosa over Hurban.
> >
> > Also, as early as 7/31 on the "Sunny Flip? Twister going
> > away?" thread (currently on page 6) I first suggested that
> > Sunny might switch to Preciosa.

> Well, it looks like your predictions were correct! Good
> work, lol.

Thanks for the insight, Jay. I'll admit to missing that post at the end of July. To suggest a switch that far back is pretty amazing, considering that much of what one reads around here is like the NOAA weather forecast sometimes: more history than prediction.
 
There is no point ... the discussion should be about the demise of Sunny

> Well Batman it's no suprise that we disagree.


Because, again, I don't see what any of this has to do with a new radio station.

Your concerns are understood, but you are debating illegal immigration -- not radio on a board called Radio-Info.com.

And now, so am I.

Regarding language, because of the way the brain develops, it is extremely difficult, if not impossible in some cases to master a new language after a certain age.

And that holds true for English, German, Spanish, French, etc.

As far as learning a second language, the earlier the better. Just look at the generations of Hispanics you know and you will understand.

And, I understand about problems of illegal immigration.

But if we had another hailstorm in the DFW area as we did a few years ago, you would not find anyone, anyone to replace your roof without those Hispanic workers.

Ask the owners of those roofing companies about it. A majority of the owners won't even go onto the roofs in that heat for more than a few minutes.

The workers spend all day on roofs in temperatures that approach or exceed 110 degrees with the heat from composition roofing material beating down on them.

And the same is true for numerous other tough, back breaking manual labor jobs. It is simply a fact that some jobs would not be done in modern America without the Hispanic population -- jobs we relegated to other minorities in the past.

But again, what any of my post or yours has to done with the introduction of a new radio station is beyond me.

Sunny was dumped because the owners thought a new format would be more successful and profitable to their company.

It is simply rambling when you begin a post about your technical ability to dabble in porn.


> I technically have the technical/business knowledge to set
> up a porn site. I could go into business as a spammer, a
> telemarketer or a casino owner. I could sell loans to people
> that otherwise couldn't get a loan because of their bad
> credit rating and charge them outrageous interest fees. I
> could go on and on. I COULD probably make a boatload of
> money off these types of ventures that are certainly not
> illegal, but that I find morally reprehensible. Just because
> I can do something, doesn't mean that I should. If I went to
> Germany, I would be expected to speak German. If I went to
> France, I would be expected to speak French. If I went to
> Russia, I would be expected to speak Russian, etc, etc, etc.
> Why should it be any different here? When you have a group
> of CRIMINALS crossing the border ILLEGALLY and putting an
> enormous strain on our economy, why should we pander to
> them? Everyone says that we get cheap goods because of their
> labor, but we pay the price through higher taxes. It used to
> be that as the cost of living rose, wages rose. Now you have
> groups of criminals coming to our country willing to work
> for $5.00/hour because they don't have to pay taxes and they
> can cram 10 of them into an apartment and still send a
> majority of their paycheck back to Mexico. Can you live on
> $5.00/hour - no! They are putting a huge burden on our
> health system, in most cases gettting better/cheaper health
> care than you. Who pays for that? You do. They are putting a
> huge strain on our education system as schools are forced to
> dumb down the curiculum to accomodate those who are way
> behind. Who's footing the bill for all the extra strain on
> our police, fire, city services and roads? You are. Who's
> getting all the state funded welfare? They are. And they are
> not paying one dime into the system. It's like a leech
> attaching to a host organism and only taking for it's own
> benefit and giving back nothing in return. Why should the
> offspring of criminals be awarded American citizenship
> because these criminals were lucky enough to jump the border
> and procreate? All privileges, no responsibility. So excuse
> me if I think we shouldn't pander to criminals. Again - this
> is America - we speak English. Last time I checked, it was
> still a requirement of American citizenship that you be able
> to speak, read/write English. So I'm not talking about all
> the people that are here legally to which it is a slap in
> the face to allow all these people to come here illegally.
> And if I came up to you with a gun and robbed you, you
> wouldn't hate me because I was white, you'd hate that I was
> a thief that took something that didn't belong to me.
>
>
> > Honestly, I fail to see your point.
> >
> > You talk about immigration, and this thread refers simply
> to
> > a new Hispanic station that has the potential to make its
> > owners a lot more money than the previous format.
> >
> > If you owned a business -- any business -- would you
> prefer
> > to make more or less money?
> >
> > Yes, I harp about it because it is so simple.
> >
> > Radio is a BUSINESS!
> >
> > It is not your personal iPod.
> >
>
 
Re: There is no point ... the discussion should be about the demise of Sunny

> Because, again, I don't see what any of this has to do with
> a new radio station.

> Sunny was dumped because the owners thought a new format
> would be more successful and profitable to their company.
>
> It is simply rambling when you begin a post about your
> technical ability to dabble in porn.


That is why it is so infuriating to have a debate with someone like you. If you can't win the argument - you just shift and deflect the argument to something else. The whole point of your original post was that making money was more important than anything else. I laid out a case for why it wasn't. There are people everywhere in business making lots of money and they sleep just fine at night without regard to how it affects our society. Yes some people will do anything for money. You can't seriously tell me that is is the only way they can make money with a 100,000 watt stick right in the middle of DFW?


> But if we had another hailstorm in the DFW area as we did a
> few years ago, you would not find anyone, anyone to replace
> your roof without those Hispanic workers.

Now who's getting off topic?

Really? What did we do before they got here? Legal citizens were paid a living wage to do the job. It is a lie that American's don't want/won't do those jobs. They just won't go out and do it for a wage they can't afford to feed their family on. Do you know any of these people? Have you ever asked them if they would'nt like their jobs back?

>And the same is true for numerous other tough, back breaking manual labor jobs.
>It is simply a fact that some jobs would not be done in modern America without
>the Hispanic population -- jobs we relegated to other minorities in the past.

Even if I accepted your premise that it only affected minorities; You're really going to advocate that we take these jobs from legal, taxpaying US citizens and give them to criminals?<P ID="edit"><FONT class="small">Edited by the80sguy on 08/23/05 12:32 PM.</FONT></P>
 
Re: And your point is?

> So excuse
> me if I think we shouldn't pander to criminals.

Here are a couple of facts.

First, if imigrants or Hispanics in DFW were all illegal, you might have more of a point. But the fact is that, nationally, less than 25% of Hispanics are illegal. The rest have acquired the right to be here.

Second, were they all to be sendin all thier money to Mexico, there would be no advertiser interest. In fact, Hispanics are a $1 trillion dollar consumer market.

Third, not all Hispanics are entry level workers. Many are skilled tradesmen, small businessmen and even the CEO of AMD. While Hispanic income lages the total market income, it is no longer by much.

Fourth, illegals generally are thought not to participate in radi ratings... or anything where they blindly give thier address and personal data on the phone. In any case, to get on the SSI lists Arbitron uses takes quite a while, and illegal immigrants who move around will not be sampled. So a Spanish radio station is hardly pandering to illegals... it gets its income and ratings from providing an advertising service to clients who find the listeners have spendable income.

While this is not the place to argue how much lower income people of any kind contribute to the general coffers of government, remember that we have a tiered tax system so the better off sibsidize the less well off. Still, low income workers, legal or not, pay sales taxes, gas tax, vehicle taxes, tax on the rental income an aportion of the landlord's propoerty taxes, FICA, income tax retention, etc.... So to say that immigrants, legal or not, pay nothing is not true.
 
Re: There is no point ... the discussion should be about the demise of Sunny

>
>
> That is why it is so infuriating to have a debate with
> someone like you. If you can't win the argument - you just
> shift and deflect the argument to something else. The whole
> point of your original post was that making money was more
> important than anything else. I laid out a case for why it
> wasn't. There are people everywhere in business making lots
> of money and they sleep just fine at night without regard to
> how it affects our society. Yes some people will do anything
> for money. You can't seriously tell me that is is the only
> way they can make money with a 100,000 watt stick right in
> the middle of DFW?

The market is nearly 25% Hispanic. It would seem that a significant number of opportunities exist in a segment that covers 25% of the population.
>
>
> Even if I accepted your premise that it only affected
> minorities; You're really going to advocate that we take
> these jobs from legal, taxpaying US citizens and give them
> to criminals?
>

Most Hispanics in the US are here legally. To blame the majority for something that most have nothing to do with is no more fair than the things you accuse all of doing...
 
> > Well that's one less station to play Christmas music.
> > Damn! does this mean that KVIL will get it cranked up on
> > Oct. this year?
>
> > Labor day. LOL
>
> La Musica De Navidad En Estereo Este Decembro En La
> Presciosa 97.1!
>
> (pardon any spelling and grammar errors; I did not take
> Spanish in school--I took three years of French!)
>


You read my mind on that one! Good one.....<P ID="signature">______________
"Would the person or persons who stole radio, automated and genericized it with standardized formats and regurgitated it on all of America please return it. You're killing the medium. Thank you."</P>
 
Re: There is no point ... the discussion should be about the demise of Sunny

> > Because, again, I don't see what any of this has to do
> with
> > a new radio station.
>
> > Sunny was dumped because the owners thought a new format
> > would be more successful and profitable to their company.
> >
> > It is simply rambling when you begin a post about your
> > technical ability to dabble in porn.
>
>
> That is why it is so infuriating to have a debate with
> someone like you. If you can't win the argument - you just
> shift and deflect the argument to something else. The whole
> point of your original post was that making money was more
> important than anything else. I laid out a case for why it
> wasn't. There are people everywhere in business making lots
> of money and they sleep just fine at night without regard to
> how it affects our society. Yes some people will do anything
> for money. You can't seriously tell me that is is the only
> way they can make money with a 100,000 watt stick right in
> the middle of DFW?


No, I NEVER said that "making money was more important than anything else."

That quote or paraphrase has never appeared in my post. NEVER.

What I did say is that "Radio is a business". That is an undisputed fact.

The owners of Sunny changed the format because they thought they could improve their profitability.

I don't defend or support it. It is not my radio station nor my company obviously.

To be frank, so many radio stations and other options exist in 2005, that personally, I don't care what format is put on that frequency.

I understand that you do. And I understand your passion.


> > But if we had another hailstorm in the DFW area as we did
> a
> > few years ago, you would not find anyone, anyone to
> replace
> > your roof without those Hispanic workers.
>
> Now who's getting off topic?


You brought up the topic of illegal immigration almost immediately. I simply stated that some jobs in America would not be filled today without legal and/or illegal Hispanic workers.

Government figures bear that out.

And my statement in no way is meant to demean the millions of legal immigrants to this countries.


>
> Really? What did we do before they got here? Legal citizens
> were paid a living wage to do the job. It is a lie that
> American's don't want/won't do those jobs. They just won't
> go out and do it for a wage they can't afford to feed their
> family on. Do you know any of these people? Have you ever
> asked them if they would'nt like their jobs back?


No, most other Americans will not do roofing jobs. And that is just one example.

Most of the workers that did roofing, bricklaying and other manual labor jobs 30, 40 or more years ago, are either retired or dead today.

And since most of the workers are Hispanic, the on-site supervisors must be Hispanic ... or must be fluent in Spanish. Many or most of the owners are not.

I used the roofing industry as just one example. Some of the owners of these roofing companies are Hispanic. And the numbers will increase.

It is not a living wage, but the minimum wage in America has been stuck at $5.15 an hour for years. Whom do you blame for that?

>
> >And the same is true for numerous other tough, back
> breaking manual labor jobs.
> >It is simply a fact that some jobs would not be done in
> modern America without
> >the Hispanic population -- jobs we relegated to other
> minorities in the past.
>
> Even if I accepted your premise that it only affected
> minorities; You're really going to advocate that we take
> these jobs from legal, taxpaying US citizens and give them
> to criminals?


You use the term "criminal" rather loosely for people in some cases that are simply trying to better their lives or feed their families.

And, those jobs you are talking about have already gone to others by default. You simply don't realize it or understand it. Again, most native-born Americans will not do that work.

And what do you propose to do about the borders of our country?

What does President Bush proposed?

He has never answered that question -- because he has no answers.

And neither does any other politician.
 
Re: And your point is?

> First, if imigrants or Hispanics in DFW were all illegal,
> you might have more of a point. But the fact is that,
> nationally, less than 25% of Hispanics are illegal. The rest
> have acquired the right to be here.

Ok. You're smart enough to know that any set of statistics can be skewed in such a way to either support or oppose a particular point of view. First, we're not talking nationally. We're talking locally. Ok, I'll give you the whole state of Texas. It is unexplicable how Hispanics just a few years ago composed only about 10-12% of the total population and now, even if I were to accept your 25%, that is still a doubling of the numbers in a very short time span. It can only be explained by people coming here illegally. How exactly could we ever accurately measure this type of thing in the first place? I don't think they are going to come forward to be counted.

> Second, were they all to be sendin all thier money to
> Mexico, there would be no advertiser interest. In fact,
> Hispanics are a $1 trillion dollar consumer market.

Just google for money sent back to Mexico from illegal immigrants - quote

In February I reported on the record $16.6 billion sent back to Mexico from immigrants here in the U.S., a 24% increase from 2003. The latest estimates show that this year those "remittances" as they call them, are expected to top Mexico's oil industry as the number one form of revenue for the country.

That's money that is gone for good. Bye-bye. Gone. It's not being poured back into our own economy.

> Third, not all Hispanics are entry level workers. Many are
> skilled tradesmen, small businessmen and even the CEO of
> AMD. While Hispanic income lages the total market income, it
> is no longer by much.

I am not talking about Hispanics. I am talking about illegal aliens. I don't think you are going to see any non-English speaking illegal aliens in those types of positions.

>
> While this is not the place to argue how much lower income
> people of any kind contribute to the general coffers of
> government, remember that we have a tiered tax system so the
> better off sibsidize the less well off. Still, low income
> workers, legal or not, pay sales taxes, gas tax, vehicle
> taxes, tax on the rental income an aportion of the
> landlord's propoerty taxes, FICA, income tax retention,
> etc.... So to say that immigrants, legal or not, pay
> nothing is not true.

Well I guess we should all stop paying our taxes then, because according to you the trite amount of money these illegal's are paying should be enough. It's not even a drop in the bucket. Especially when you consider the larger burden they are placing on society in general.<P ID="edit"><FONT class="small">Edited by the80sguy on 08/24/05 12:02 AM.</FONT></P>
 
Re: There is no point ... the discussion should be about the demise of Sunny

> No, I NEVER said that "making money was more important than
> anything else."
>
> That quote or paraphrase has never appeared in my post.
> NEVER.

It certainly seemed implied. Yes, that exact phrase cannot be found in your posts.


> I understand that you do. And I understand your passion.

Cool..Thanks. When a major radio station, such as KEGL, flips to a non-English format, I think it's a big deal.

> Most of the workers that did roofing, bricklaying and other
> manual labor jobs 30, 40 or more years ago, are either
> retired or dead today.

I don't think you have to look back that far. I have talked to people in construction. People who used to build homes here in their home state of Texas. They have either had to go out of business, or move away from their families to a place where illegal immigration has not yet made it's impact.

>
> It is not a living wage, but the minimum wage in America has
> been stuck at $5.15 an hour for years. Whom do you blame
> for that?

It's not about the minimum wage. In the past, as the cost of living has rose so have the wages. In this situation, we have an artifical relief valve by which some employers choose to hire illegal immigrants at sub-living wages thereby making the pay for those jobs way below market value. Jobs should pay what the market demands to legal contributing members of our society, not some artifical price point set by the government.

> You use the term "criminal" rather loosely for people in
> some cases that are simply trying to better their lives or
> feed their families.

Tell me a country that has open borders and has a thriving sucessful economy. You can't name one because countries realize you can't just let floods of outsiders decend like locust to devour up your natural resources and to come and go as they please. It would be devastating to the economy. Most countries realize this and have much tougher control of the flow of people in and out of their borders. Not to mention national security interests. I feel for people less fortunate than me, but I'm not going to let them drag me into the sewer with them. Just as the law doesn't differentiate between someone who steals food out of hunger from those who steal out of greed, it still doesn't make it right. It's still against the law. If they ask for help and I extend it, it's different than if they just take it from me. Fix the problem where they live, don't dump your trash on my frontdoor step and expect me to be happy about it.

>
> And, those jobs you are talking about have already gone to
> others by default. You simply don't realize it or
> understand it. Again, most native-born Americans will not
> do that work.

I believe that you are mis-informed.
>
> And what do you propose to do about the borders of our
> country?
>
> What does President Bush proposed?
>
> He has never answered that question -- because he has no
> answers.

The answers are there. Make the penalties for hiring/employing illegal immigrants so stiff that no employer dare take the chance. Throw them in jail, take away their businesses and take all their money and give it back to the US taxpayer who is having to foot the bill for their greed. And then ENFORCE THE LAW.

Citizenship requires responsibilities, not just rights. Not least of which is that you be able to speak, read and write English. It's required to participate in political debate. It's required so that you don't put a huge unfair burden on our educational system. It's required so that you can participate in society period. If they want to come here and enjoy the benefits, they have to expect there will be responsibilities.
 
Re: There is no point ... the discussion should be about the demise of Sunny

> > No, I NEVER said that "making money was more important
> than
> > anything else."
> >
> > That quote or paraphrase has never appeared in my post.
> > NEVER.
>
> It certainly seemed implied. Yes, that exact phrase cannot
> be found in your posts.


To be clear, I have never implied or said that "making money was more important than anything else" in this post or any other post. NEVER.

You are simply mistaken.

What I do say is that those broadcasting companies, just like a grocery store, a shoe repairman, an airline, etc., are a business.

For example, a grocer does not operate so that you and I may enjoy steak, Twinkies, orange juice, etc. He operates to make money.

How I feel about it is irrevelant.


> > I understand that you do. And I understand your passion.
>
> Cool..Thanks. When a major radio station, such as KEGL,
> flips to a non-English format, I think it's a big deal.


We just disagree. I listened to the Eagle only in the 1980s. Outgrew it.

When it disappeared, it meant nothing to me.

The flipping of Sunny to the new format is also meaningless to me except for the purposes of discussion.


> > Most of the workers that did roofing, bricklaying and
> other
> > manual labor jobs 30, 40 or more years ago, are either
> > retired or dead today.
>
> I don't think you have to look back that far. I have talked
> to people in construction. People who used to build homes
> here in their home state of Texas. They have either had to
> go out of business, or move away from their families to a
> place where illegal immigration has not yet made it's
> impact.


However, most Hispanics living in Texas are not illegal immigrants. Most live here legally, pay their taxes, contribute to the economy, etc.


> > It is not a living wage, but the minimum wage in America
> has
> > been stuck at $5.15 an hour for years. Whom do you blame
> > for that?
>
> It's not about the minimum wage. In the past, as the cost of
> living has rose so have the wages.


Not so, just the opposite. Wages have been stagnant the last few years while the inflation rate has barely moved.

Perhaps, your wages have rose, but overall the figures overall show otherwise. And the Federal Reserve Bank's stated goal has been to control inflation while slowly increaing the prime interest rate.

So far, its goal has been successful.


>In this situation, we
> have an artifical relief valve by which some employers
> choose to hire illegal immigrants at sub-living wages
> thereby making the pay for those jobs way below market
> value. Jobs should pay what the market demands to legal
> contributing members of our society, not some artifical
> price point set by the government.
>
> > You use the term "criminal" rather loosely for people in
> > some cases that are simply trying to better their lives or
>
> > feed their families.
>
> Tell me a country that has open borders and has a thriving
> sucessful economy. You can't name one because countries
> realize you can't just let floods of outsiders decend like
> locust to devour up your natural resources and to come and
> go as they please. It would be devastating to the economy.
> Most countries realize this and have much tougher control of
> the flow of people in and out of their borders. Not to
> mention national security interests. I feel for people less
> fortunate than me, but I'm not going to let them drag me
> into the sewer with them. Just as the law doesn't
> differentiate between someone who steals food out of hunger
> from those who steal out of greed, it still doesn't make it
> right.


The law usually does differentiate from someone who is hungry and steals bread for that reason from a CEO who robs and cheats his employees and his company.

And the courts should.

If you disagree, you and I have a major disagreement over jurisprudence and fairness.

You live in America by chance, or the grace of God, whichever you believe. Not by choice.

Others less fortunate don't. It is not a plea for open borders, but it is a point easily forgotten by those of us lucky enough to live in the United States.


>It's still against the law. If they ask for help and
> I extend it, it's different than if they just take it from
> me. Fix the problem where they live, don't dump your trash
> on my frontdoor step and expect me to be happy about it.
>
> >
> > And, those jobs you are talking about have already gone to
>
> > others by default. You simply don't realize it or
> > understand it. Again, most native-born Americans will not
>
> > do that work.
>
> I believe that you are mis-informed.


Again, ask the business owners if they can find such workers.

Not to be flip, but most Americans are used to working in air-conditioned buildings these days even if it is McDonald's.


> >
> > And what do you propose to do about the borders of our
> > country?
> >
> > What does President Bush proposed?
> >
> > He has never answered that question -- because he has no
> > answers.
>
> The answers are there. Make the penalties for
> hiring/employing illegal immigrants so stiff that no
> employer dare take the chance. Throw them in jail, take away
> their businesses and take all their money and give it back
> to the US taxpayer who is having to foot the bill for their
> greed. And then ENFORCE THE LAW.


Do you honestly believe President Bush and Congress could or would pass such legislation even if that were the answer?

Do you believe such a law is practical? What kind of enforcement agency could handle such a burden?

The IRS? The INS? Impossible. Impractical.


> Citizenship requires responsibilities, not just rights. Not
> least of which is that you be able to speak, read and write
> English. It's required to participate in political debate.
> It's required so that you don't put a huge unfair burden on
> our educational system. It's required so that you can
> participate in society period. If they want to come here and
> enjoy the benefits, they have to expect there will be
> responsibilities.
>


Young children do learn English in our schools. That is the time to learn ... when they are very young. Otherwise, it is often extremely difficult to learn another language ... Spanish or otherwise.

Some of the real burdens on school districts have been imposed by our own federal government -- programs like President Bush's "No Child Left Behind" which, in some cases, was poorly thought out, and is, without a doubt, underfunded, as members of his own party have pointed out.

Many school districts that can afford to do so have simply rejected the federal money that comes with that program rather than be burdened by the regulations.
 
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