Sunny Sets Thursday

[the80sguy]

Re: There is no point ... the discussion should be about the demise of Sunny

> What I do say is that those broadcasting companies, just
> like a grocery store, a shoe repairman, an airline, etc.,
> are a business.
>
> For example, a grocer does not operate so that you and I may
> enjoy steak, Twinkies, orange juice, etc. He operates to
> make money.

I go back to my original point. Some people will do anything to make money regardless of how it affects society.

> However, most Hispanics living in Texas are not illegal
> immigrants. Most live here legally, pay their taxes,
> contribute to the economy, etc.

That's your personal opinion.

> Not so, just the opposite. Wages have been stagnant the
> last few years while the inflation rate has barely moved.

Like I said IN THE PAST BEFORE the sea of criminals flooded the state.

> > Tell me a country that has open borders and has a thriving
>
> > sucessful economy. You can't name one because countries
> > realize you can't just let floods of outsiders decend like
>
> > locust to devour up your natural resources and to come and
>
> > go as they please. It would be devastating to the economy.
>
> > Most countries realize this and have much tougher control
> of
> > the flow of people in and out of their borders. Not to


Nice to see you ignore what you can't defend.


> > mention national security interests. I feel for people
> less
> > fortunate than me, but I'm not going to let them drag me
> > into the sewer with them. Just as the law doesn't
> > differentiate between someone who steals food out of
> hunger
> > from those who steal out of greed, it still doesn't make
> it
> > right.

> The law usually does differentiate from someone who is
> hungry and steals bread for that reason from a CEO who robs
> and cheats his employees and his company.

Only because a loaf a bread is $2 not $2 billion.
The 8th commandment states - Thou shalt not steal
NOT Thou shalt not steal..unless.....

> You live in America by chance, or the grace of God,
> whichever you believe. Not by choice.

Grace of God.. Thank you.

> Others less fortunate don't. It is not a plea for open
> borders, but it is a point easily forgotten by those of us
> lucky enough to live in the United States.


If money was no object, I'd be happy to help all those people in need.


> Again, ask the business owners if they can find such
> workers.
>
> Not to be flip, but most Americans are used to working in
> air-conditioned buildings these days even if it is
> McDonald's.

NO NOT AT THE ARTIFICALLY LOW WAGES IMPOSED BY CRIMINALS COMING HERE FROM MEXICO.


> Do you honestly believe President Bush and Congress could or
> would pass such legislation even if that were the answer?


Tell me why it won't work. Yes I think it's the answer.


> Do you believe such a law is practical? What kind of
> enforcement agency could handle such a burden?
>
> The IRS? The INS? Impossible. Impractical.

Oh I see, we should never attempt anything that you deem impractical or impossible. I'm sure people in 1900 never dreamed that we would ever be living the life we live today. Thank goodness we stand on the shoulders of giants who dared to do the impossible.

> Some of the real burdens on school districts have been
> imposed by our own federal government -- programs like
> President Bush's "No Child Left Behind" which, in some
> cases, was poorly thought out, and is, without a doubt,
> underfunded, as members of his own party have pointed out.

Prove that it's more of a burden. Back it up with more than opinion. I'm not rejecting or accepting it. I'm no Bush lover. I think he has done a HORRIBLE job as President. I do believe he has done more to keep our country safe than the alternative would have done. Other than that, I'll be glad to see him go.

Thanks for the interesting debate. It's fun!<P ID="edit"><FONT class="small">Edited by the80sguy on 08/24/05 01:59 AM.</FONT></P>

 

[Phantom]

Re: There is no point ... the discussion should be about the demise of Sunny

> > What I do say is that those broadcasting companies, just
> > like a grocery store, a shoe repairman, an airline, etc.,
> > are a business.
> >
> > For example, a grocer does not operate so that you and I
> may
> > enjoy steak, Twinkies, orange juice, etc. He operates to
> > make money.
>
> I go back to my original point. Some people will do anything
> to make money regardless of how it affects society.


Yes, they certainly will. Enron is a perfect example, and thousands of other examples exist as well.

However, most people, as evidenced by the ratings, care little that Sunny is changing formats. That switch affects society little, if any.

Radio stations change formats all the time.

Actually, as I understand it, you are passionate about the loss of the Eagle, not Sunny. And I understand that.

Laugh if you will, but I like "The Mighty 1190". Much of it takes me back to my early days in radio on AM.

However, I realize that 1190 will soon be gone with the wind. It has virtually no chance for survival especially with a music format.

Life moves on. Sometimes not for the best.


>
> > However, most Hispanics living in Texas are not illegal
> > immigrants. Most live here legally, pay their taxes,
> > contribute to the economy, etc.
>
> That's your personal opinion.


Actually, those figures emanate from the U.S. government.

Whether those numbers are correct or precise only the Census Bureau and the INS know for certain.

I understand your skepticism. I wonder if anyone knows anything for certain about our immigration problems.

I do know many Hispanics living here legally who obey the letter and spirit of the law for fear of reprisal -- warranted or not. But my experience, of course, is only antedoctal.


> > Not so, just the opposite. Wages have been stagnant the
> > last few years while the inflation rate has barely moved.
>
>
> Like I said IN THE PAST BEFORE the sea of criminals flooded
> the state.
>
> > > Tell me a country that has open borders and has a
> thriving
> >
> > > sucessful economy. You can't name one because countries
> > > realize you can't just let floods of outsiders decend
> like
> >
> > > locust to devour up your natural resources and to come
> and
> >
> > > go as they please. It would be devastating to the
> economy.
> >
> > > Most countries realize this and have much tougher
> control
> > of
> > > the flow of people in and out of their borders. Not to
>
>
> Nice to see you ignore what you can't defend.


Well, I should have responded that I am not in favor of open borders.

In theory, the United States does not have open borders. In fact, we do.

How we solve the problem is a complete mystery to me and apparently to this presidential administration and to administrations in the past.

Several U.S. senators have offered suggestions to President Bush to solve the problem. For the most part, his administration ignores the problem.

Part of the problem is that the GOP craves the Hispanic vote just as the Democratic Party does.

Politics as usually.

I bet we can agree on that regardless of political affliation or beliefs.

>
> > > mention national security interests. I feel for people
> > less
> > > fortunate than me, but I'm not going to let them drag me
>
> > > into the sewer with them. Just as the law doesn't
> > > differentiate between someone who steals food out of
> > hunger
> > > from those who steal out of greed, it still doesn't make
>
> > it
> > > right.
>
> > The law usually does differentiate from someone who is
> > hungry and steals bread for that reason from a CEO who
> robs
> > and cheats his employees and his company.

>
> Only because a loaf a bread is $2 not $2 billion.
> The 8th commandment states - Thou shalt not steal
> NOT Thou shalt not steal..unless.....


I agree completely -- stealing is stealing. But circumstances have to be taken into account. The CFO at Enron, to me, is a much different case than the homeless man who steals a candy bar at a 7-11.

Christ forgave the prostitute but had little sympathy for the money changers. Circumstances.
>
> > You live in America by chance, or the grace of God,
> > whichever you believe. Not by choice.
>
> Grace of God.. Thank you.
>
> > Others less fortunate don't. It is not a plea for open
> > borders, but it is a point easily forgotten by those of us
>
> > lucky enough to live in the United States.
>
>
> If money was no object, I'd be happy to help all those
> people in need.


I am glad we agree on that point.
>
>
> > Again, ask the business owners if they can find such
> > workers.
> >
> > Not to be flip, but most Americans are used to working in
> > air-conditioned buildings these days even if it is
> > McDonald's.
>
> NO NOT AT THE ARTIFICALLY LOW WAGES IMPOSED BY CRIMINALS
> COMING HERE FROM MEXICO.


Again, I have trouble with the term "criminal" since the majority of which are law abiding especially since they know they will be returned if they commit an offense.

Native-Americans or American Indians might rightly call our ancestors "criminals".

Again, when I was a reporter, small business owners who employed hard manual labor workers told me they could not hire whites, blacks or other minorities other than Hispanics unless the wages exceeded about $15-$20 an hour.

In addition, frankly, those same owners said the vast majority of whites would refuse to do that work for any amount of money because of the exhausting labor and physical toll it takes on their bodies long term.


>
>
> > Do you honestly believe President Bush and Congress could
> or
> > would pass such legislation even if that were the answer?
>
>
> Tell me why it won't work. Yes I think it's the answer.


I did not state that all of it would not work although I have doubts about some of the measures.

I am asking this: Does President Bush and Congress have the political courage to close the borders?

I doubt it, and so far, both the president and Congress have proved me right.


> > Do you believe such a law is practical? What kind of
> > enforcement agency could handle such a burden?
> >
> > The IRS? The INS? Impossible. Impractical.
>
> Oh I see, we should never attempt anything that you deem
> impractical or impossible. I'm sure people in 1900 never
> dreamed that we would ever be living the life we live today.
> Thank goodness we stand on the shoulders of giants who dared
> to do the impossible.


Impossible and impractical with the leaders we have today as well as the political climate.


> > Some of the real burdens on school districts have been
> > imposed by our own federal government -- programs like
> > President Bush's "No Child Left Behind" which, in some
> > cases, was poorly thought out, and is, without a doubt,
> > underfunded, as members of his own party have pointed out.
>
>
> Prove that it's more of a burden. Back it up with more than
> opinion.


If it was not a burden, then why would so many school districts reject easy federal money.

For one, the legislation makes it harder, not easier, for someone to become a school teacher at any level regardless of that person's background and experience.

The added bureaucracy and paperwork is overwhelming and discouraging. The certification process is much more difficult, not less now, when many inner-city as well as rural schools need teachers desperately.

I know because I wanted to teach and coach before retiring.



I'm not rejecting or accepting it. I'm no Bush
> lover. I think he has done a HORRIBLE job as President. I do
> believe he has done more to keep our country safe than the
> alternative would have done. Other than that, I'll be glad
> to see him go.
>
> Thanks for the interesting debate. It's fun!


You are not only a good debater but knowledgeable as well, my friend.

Thanks to you as well.

 

[the80sguy]

Re: There is no point ... the discussion should be about the demise of Sunny

> However, most people, as evidenced by the ratings, care
> little that Sunny is changing formats. That switch affects
> society little, if any.
>
> Radio stations change formats all the time.
>
> Actually, as I understand it, you are passionate about the
> loss of the Eagle, not Sunny. And I understand that.
>
> Laugh if you will, but I like "The Mighty 1190". Much of it
> takes me back to my early days in radio on AM.
>
> However, I realize that 1190 will soon be gone with the
> wind. It has virtually no chance for survival especially
> with a music format.
>
> Life moves on. Sometimes not for the best.


I love "The Mighty 1190"! I even love that it's on AM. It just makes it that more nostalgic. I think most people aren't aware of it's existence. It will be a shame when it's gone. It's not the fact that Sunny will be gone to me. It's the alarming rate at which we are losing frequencies on the FM dial to non-English speaking formats. In the past, people who have come here have done what was necessary to become a part of the "Great Melting Pot" we call America. It's part of what has made us great. Now we have a group of people coming here refusing to do that, placing all the burden square on the shoulders of the American people. When you only take and aren't willing to give back, it breeds resentment.

Skipping stuff we agree on...

> Native-Americans or American Indians might rightly call our
> ancestors "criminals".

And they were right. It is horrible what we did.

> Again, when I was a reporter, small business owners who
> employed hard manual labor workers told me they could not
> hire whites, blacks or other minorities other than Hispanics
> unless the wages exceeded about $15-$20 an hour.

I believe that $15-$20/hour is fair for this type of work. What pays more? Jobs everyone wants to do or jobs that no one wants to do? Obviously the jobs no one wants. That's why garbage men get paid so well. Without the existence of the artifical relief valve the illegal's are placing on wages, wages would go up to the point that you would find plenty of people more than willing to do this kind of work. Let's see, I can go to work for McDonalds and make $7/hour or I can go build houses and make $20/hour. Easy decision.


> Impossible and impractical with the leaders we have today as
> well as the political climate.

More common ground...

> For one, the legislation makes it harder, not easier, for
> someone to become a school teacher at any level regardless
> of that person's background and experience.
>
> The added bureaucracy and paperwork is overwhelming and
> discouraging. The certification process is much more
> difficult, not less now, when many inner-city as well as
> rural schools need teachers desperately.
>
> I know because I wanted to teach and coach before retiring.

Well when the government says we must hand our kids over to strangers, I would hope that the process for hiring these people entrusted with our most valued little one's would be a bit more difficult than getting a job at 7-11. We'll see. I just started back to College yesterday. My major - education.


> You are not only a good debater but knowledgeable as well,
> my friend.
>
> Thanks to you as well.
>

I LOVE THIS. We didn't resort to name calling. We actually found that we agree on some things. I wish more public debate of this kind existed. I feel the same towards you and I respect your opinions.

 

[Phantom]

Re: There is no point ... the discussion should be about the demise of Sunny

> > However, most people, as evidenced by the ratings, care
> > little that Sunny is changing formats. That switch
> affects
> > society little, if any.
> >
> > Radio stations change formats all the time.
> >
> > Actually, as I understand it, you are passionate about the
>
> > loss of the Eagle, not Sunny. And I understand that.
> >
> > Laugh if you will, but I like "The Mighty 1190". Much of
> it
> > takes me back to my early days in radio on AM.
> >
> > However, I realize that 1190 will soon be gone with the
> > wind. It has virtually no chance for survival especially
> > with a music format.
> >
> > Life moves on. Sometimes not for the best.
>
>
> I love "The Mighty 1190"! I even love that it's on AM. It
> just makes it that more nostalgic. I think most people
> aren't aware of it's existence. It will be a shame when it's
> gone. It's not the fact that Sunny will be gone to me. It's
> the alarming rate at which we are losing frequencies on the
> FM dial to non-English speaking formats. In the past, people
> who have come here have done what was necessary to become a
> part of the "Great Melting Pot" we call America. It's part
> of what has made us great. Now we have a group of people
> coming here refusing to do that, placing all the burden
> square on the shoulders of the American people. When you
> only take and aren't willing to give back, it breeds
> resentment.


However, that is the more the fault of broadcasters if you object to the change.

No Hispanics were protesting outside Clear Channel for a change. CC did it for the bucks.

As far as "The Mighty 1190", you are absolutely right. No promotion, so no one knows it exists.


> Skipping stuff we agree on...
>
> > Native-Americans or American Indians might rightly call
> our
> > ancestors "criminals".
>
> And they were right. It is horrible what we did.
>
> > Again, when I was a reporter, small business owners who
> > employed hard manual labor workers told me they could not
> > hire whites, blacks or other minorities other than
> Hispanics
> > unless the wages exceeded about $15-$20 an hour.
>
> I believe that $15-$20/hour is fair for this type of work.


I may not have been clear. Those owners were not willing, perhaps not able I don't know, to pay anywhere close to those wages ... to anyone.

> What pays more? Jobs everyone wants to do or jobs that no
> one wants to do? Obviously the jobs no one wants. That's why
> garbage men get paid so well.

They are paid handsomely in NYC because they have a union. But after reading a feature story about a sanitation worker who works all night there, he has to "psych" himself, so to speak, to go to work every night.

It is a dreary existence.


> Without the existence of the
> artifical relief valve the illegal's are placing on wages,
> wages would go up to the point that you would find plenty of
> people more than willing to do this kind of work. Let's see,
> I can go to work for McDonalds and make $7/hour or I can go
> build houses and make $20/hour. Easy decision.


Yes, you can. But I still insist many jobs exist that others will not do except for Hispanic -- legal and illegal.

And we have not begun to recognize the accomplishments of the many Hispanic leaders in this country.



>
> > Impossible and impractical with the leaders we have today
> as
> > well as the political climate.
>
> More common ground...
>
> > For one, the legislation makes it harder, not easier, for
> > someone to become a school teacher at any level regardless
>
> > of that person's background and experience.
> >
> > The added bureaucracy and paperwork is overwhelming and
> > discouraging. The certification process is much more
> > difficult, not less now, when many inner-city as well as
> > rural schools need teachers desperately.
> >
> > I know because I wanted to teach and coach before
> retiring.
>
> Well when the government says we must hand our kids over to
> strangers, I would hope that the process for hiring these
> people entrusted with our most valued little one's would be
> a bit more difficult than getting a job at 7-11. We'll see.
> I just started back to College yesterday. My major -
> education.


You will have no problem. You are bright, quick, smart.

My problem was they added algebra and trig to the certification in my area when I simply wanted to teach history or political science.

I would have had to return to college for education courses. Several years ago, certification based on experience and life skills would have made it possible for me to teach.

It is easy for some to say it is never too late. Well, wait until you are my age and try it . Not impossible ... but it seems the bureacrats try.

Having worked in politics at several levels, I believe I would have been a good teacher.

And so it goes.
>
> > You are not only a good debater but knowledgeable as well,
>
> > my friend.
> >
> > Thanks to you as well.
> >
>
> I LOVE THIS. We didn't resort to name calling. We actually
> found that we agree on some things. I wish more public
> debate of this kind existed. I feel the same towards you and
> I respect your opinions.

Absolutely, it was great. Thanks again.

And since we're now on page two of the Dallas board, we are probably talking to ourselves .

Maybe I should post this part of it again on page 1.

Don't be surprised since I am a confirmed maverick.

In the movie "Spygame", Robert Redford heads back to his superior's office where he has purposely left his smokes to grab some classified documents. The smarmy CIA official reminds him that no smoking is allowed at Langley any longer.

Redford replies, "It feels good to break a rule now and then."

 

[davideduardo]

Re: And your point is?

> Ok. You're smart enough to know that any set of statistics
> can be skewed in such a way to either support or oppose a
> particular point of view.

I also know that the base numbers, the 2000 Census, are pretty much devoid of any "point of view" because, precisely, we are dealing witha census and not a poll. Any variances int he Census numbers are really minimal. And we have projections to this year (ready just about now) done with standard statistical techniques, not with interpretation.

> First, we're not talking
> nationally. We're talking locally.

The 2005 adjusted number should show the DFW MSA (Arbitron's MSA, not the OMB's one... we are talking radio) as breaking the 24% Hispanic number for th efirst time.

> Ok, I'll give you the
> whole state of Texas. It is unexplicable how Hispanics just
> a few years ago composed only about 10-12% of the total
> population and now, even if I were to accept your 25%, that
> is still a doubling of the numbers in a very short time
> span.

The growth is not as severe as you believe. The census, using the aforementioned statistical techniques, missed being on track for the large jump in Hispanic population in the DFW market from 1990 to 2000. They missed it by about 25%. Prior to the use of 2000 Census data, which occured in fall of 2001, Arbitron thought the market was 15% Hispanic. Suddenly, it became 20%. And it has increased by about 0.6% yearly since then.

What happenened is that the Census projection model did show the total population growth, and pretty accurately, but did not project Hispanic growth as well. Since much of the Hispanic growth comes from the differences in natality, since over 50% of the Hispanic population growth in the last years is not via immigration, they missed the natality rate.

This also happened in Phoenix and Houston and Austin. Interstingly, all these are high growht markets per se, so the Census seemed unable to projects Hispanic growth inside a growing market. They were within 0.3% in LA, however... and it was overstated!

> It can only be explained by people coming here
> illegally.

There are many explanations, and yours is only one. First is the birth rate. Second is the migration from farming and rural agriculture to bigger cities, fueled by the construction boom in Las vegas, Phoenix, Dallas, Houston, etc., in these years. THird is the fact that many Hispanics came here legally. Hundreds of thousands a year, in fact, through family reunification rules, quotas, refugee rules (Cuba, El Salvador, Guatemala) etc. There are many reasons.

> How exactly could we ever accurately measure this
> type of thing in the first place? I don't think they are
> going to come forward to be counted.

The Census did a goowd job of letting people know in minority communities that the Census did not have any connection with the Migra... most experts think that illegals did get counted, although a few percent below the truth. But not much.
>
> > Second, were they all to be sendin all thier money to
> > Mexico, there would be no advertiser interest. In fact,
> > Hispanics are a $1 trillion dollar consumer market.
>
> Just google for money sent back to Mexico from illegal
> immigrants - quote

Considering 40,000,000 Hispanics in the US, that is less than $400 per person per year.

>
> In February I reported on the record $16.6 billion sent back
> to Mexico from immigrants here in the U.S., a 24% increase
> from 2003.

This is roughly the amount of the CSI for the Dothan, AL metro. It is not a big number. Hispanic spendable income is $1 trillion. Let's see... remittances are less than 1.5% of that number.

> The latest estimates show that this year those
> "remittances" as they call them, are expected to top
> Mexico's oil industry as the number one form of revenue for
> the country.

This is a misconception. This is the leading foreign exchange produ cer, not the leading form of revenue.

As a "revenue category" this is true. But there are literally a hundred or so industrial and commercial areas in Mexico with greater economic activity. Retail, petroleum, tourism, agriculture, media, etc., all are bigger. Just radio and TV as an industry in Mexico are considerably larger than the remittance amount.
>
> That's money that is gone for good. Bye-bye. Gone. It's not
> being poured back into our own economy.

It is not gone. Our economies are interlocked. That money goes into circulation, creates more jobs and more products and services, with more demand for American sourced goods and services.
>
> > Third, not all Hispanics are entry level workers. Many are
>
> > skilled tradesmen, small businessmen and even the CEO of
> > AMD. While Hispanic income lages the total market income,
> it
> > is no longer by much.
>
> I am not talking about Hispanics. I am talking about illegal
> aliens. I don't think you are going to see any non-English
> speaking illegal aliens in those types of positions.

One of hte easiest ways for an illegal to stay in the US is by starting a business. No way to be cought by social security, etc. This is well known, too, and well exploited.
>
> Well I guess we should all stop paying our taxes then,
> because according to you the trite amount of money these
> illegal's are paying should be enough. It's not even a drop
> in the bucket. Especially when you consider the larger
> burden they are placing on society in general.
>

The lowest income groups, immigrant or not, do not pay thier way. We have a tax system that rebalances income and "spreads the wealth" by taxing some at rates of nearly 40% while others get earned income credits... still, income tax is only one source of government revenue. Sales and gas taxes, property taxes (direct or indirect) etc. are very significant contrubutors and pay a good amount, even for illegals.