Syndicated Talk Radio "Tiers"

[OhioMediaWatch]

It's shorthand those of us who write about talk radio (even in a blog) use a lot.

We'll call a syndicated host a "second-tier" host, or a "third-tier" host.

So, which host is where?

Obviously, the "first-tier" consists - just to start - of hosts like Rush and Hannity. But has Laura Ingraham moved her way up here, now? Is Glenn Beck still in Tier 1? What about Michael Savage? And is Mark Levin headed here?

In my head, "first-tier" is a show that if a decent sized market only has one talk radio station, they carry these shows. Rush and Hannity are 1-2, the slot before Rush may be either Beck or Ingraham (the latter probably for a non-CC station).

What about Neal Boortz? Is he forever destined (outside Atlanta) to be second tier?

And what about Boortz' WSB/Dial Global counterpart Clark Howard, the consumer crusader, or the rapidly rising Dave Ramsey, a money advice guy long thought to be a Southern phenomenon? Could the economic situation push one or both up into the first tier?

What about TRN hosts not named Savage or Ingraham - like Jerry Doyle or Rusty Humphries? Third-tier? Second?

And how do FOX News Radio's hosts ("Brian and the Judge", John Gibson, Tom Sullivan) fit in? Can they break out of tier 3?

Note here that I'm only talking about conservative (not liberal) talk. The liberal talk syndicated structure presumably has its own "tiers", and the whole Air America thing messes up trying to place them in my head.

I'm sure I'm leaving some out. I purposely avoided morning drive, mostly for the lack of syndicated hosts.

Thoughts?

 

[jaymarvin]

How about this: syndicated talk shows are killing a once great format.

 

[Don62]

I know one host who posts here (often times erroneously) and who crows about others' demise.

He'd give anything to be like a No. 3-4 tiered host and rub shoulders with people like Rusty Humpheries, Tom Hartman, Michael Reagan, Hugh Hewitt and Stephanie Miller when in reality he's nowhere near any kind of tier.

 

[almaniac27]

Where do you think the Salem talkers like Michael Medved and Hugh Hewitt are? I don't know if they're even on a tier.

 

[Don62]

Where do you think the Salem talkers like Michael Medved and Hugh Hewitt are? I don't know if they're even on a tier.

I'd say that's a very uninformed conclusion there.

Medved is the 8th most listened-to host, tied with Mike Gallagher with 4 million listeners. Yes, I too was surprised.

http://www.talkers.com/main/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=17&Itemid=34

They're behind Boortz (7th), Ramsey(6th), Ingraham/ Levin(5th), Beck(4th), Savage/ Dr. Laura(3rd), Hannity and Limbaugh.

The other Salem hosts?

Bill Bennett is No. 10 tied with Clark Howard.
Hewitt is No. 14, tied with a host of others including Dennis Miller, Stephanie MIller, Joy Browne.
Dennis Prager is at No. 15.

So much for the myth that Salem has no listened-to hosts.

 

[del_griffith]

Take away their O&O affiliates in NYC, LA, Chicago, Cleveland and larger markets and I wonder how many clears they would have in those markets.

 

[bayou_city_bob]

Good topic. Here are my thoughts: (the listing for each tier is in no particular order)

Tier 1
Rush, Hannity & Coast to Coast AM (Noory, Punnett & Bell)

Tier 1B
Beck, Ingraham, Levin & Savage

Tier 2
Boortz, Ramsey, Clark Howard & Dr. Laura

Tier 3
Roger Hedgecock, Imus, Dennis Miller, Lars Larson, Jerry Doyle, Sliwa, O' Reilly, John Gibson, Ric Edelman, Bill Cunningham, Alan Colmes, Mike McConnell, Ed Schultz, Midnight Radio Network (based @ WBAP), Bill Bennett, Mike Gallagher, Phil Hendrie

Tier 4
Brian & the Judge, Tom Sullivan, G. Gordon Liddy, Rusty Humphries, Bruce Williams, Steve Gill, Phil Valentine, Bob Brinker, Todd Schnitt, Bill Press, Stephanie Miller, Dennis Prager, Michael Medved, Hugh Hewitt, Monica Crowley, Tammy Bruce

Tier 5- aka 'WTF are they doing on the radio?'
Jim Sumpter, Joe Scarborough & sidekick, Mike Huckabee

It's shorthand those of us who write about talk radio (even in a blog) use a lot.

We'll call a syndicated host a "second-tier" host, or a "third-tier" host.

So, which host is where?

Obviously, the "first-tier" consists - just to start - of hosts like Rush and Hannity. But has Laura Ingraham moved her way up here, now? Is Glenn Beck still in Tier 1? What about Michael Savage? And is Mark Levin headed here?

In my head, "first-tier" is a show that if a decent sized market only has one talk radio station, they carry these shows. Rush and Hannity are 1-2, the slot before Rush may be either Beck or Ingraham (the latter probably for a non-CC station).

What about Neal Boortz? Is he forever destined (outside Atlanta) to be second tier?

And what about Boortz' WSB/Dial Global counterpart Clark Howard, the consumer crusader, or the rapidly rising Dave Ramsey, a money advice guy long thought to be a Southern phenomenon? Could the economic situation push one or both up into the first tier?

What about TRN hosts not named Savage or Ingraham - like Jerry Doyle or Rusty Humphries? Third-tier? Second?

And how do FOX News Radio's hosts ("Brian and the Judge", John Gibson, Tom Sullivan) fit in? Can they break out of tier 3?

Note here that I'm only talking about conservative (not liberal) talk. The liberal talk syndicated structure presumably has its own "tiers", and the whole Air America thing messes up trying to place them in my head.

I'm sure I'm leaving some out. I purposely avoided morning drive, mostly for the lack of syndicated hosts.

Thoughts?

 

[dustintv]

First-tier: Definitely both Limbaugh and Hannity. I hadn't thought about Coast to Coast because it has a lower amount of listeners but the fact its on most of the first-tier stations in the country does extend a place for it in this catergory.

Tier 1B
Beck, Ingraham, Levin & Savage

I like this. Both Beck and Savage are major hosts, but outside of first-tier stations in medium markets aren't often found on any major first tier stations in the bigger markets. For example in LA and Chicago Savage airs on KGIL and WIND respectively, while Beck wasn't even cleared in NYC until recently WOR picked him up. I guess Levin can go here, still growing but often aired on delay even on Citadel stations or not at all for some medium markets. Ingraham though I would place her in second-tier.

Second-tier: O'Reilly, Laura Ingraham, Dr. Laura, Neal Boortz, Dave Ramsey, and well maybe Michael Medved. To answer OhioMediaWatch's question about Boortz I think he's supposed to retire in a few years so I don't think he will be getting into the top tier. Frequent TV appearances notwithstanding, I've heard Boortz plays poorly outside of the South.

Third-tier: Dennis Miller, Clark Howard, Mike Gallagher, Lars Larson, Bill Bennett

Fourth-tier: Liddy, Phil Valentine, Dr. Joy Browne, Salem hosts who haven't been mentioned yet, Tammy Bruce

As far as liberal-talkers go, I'd place Schultz, Miller, and Rhodes in the first tier. Second tier hosts include Hartmann, Maddow, Colmes, and Lionel. Third-tier hosts would be Press and maybe Kuby.

 

[Don62]

Roger Hedgecock, Imus, [/b]Dennis Miller, Lars Larson, Jerry Doyle, Sliwa, O' Reilly, John Gibson, Ric Edelman, Bill Cunningham, Alan Colmes, Mike McConnell, Ed Schultz, Midnight Radio Network (based @ WBAP), Bill Bennett, Mike Gallagher, Phil Hendrie

Tier 4
Brian & the Judge, Tom Sullivan, G. Gordon Liddy, Rusty Humphries, Bruce Williams, Steve Gill, Phil Valentine, Bob Brinker, Todd Schnitt, Bill Press, Stephanie Miller, Dennis Prager, Michael Medved, Hugh Hewitt, Monica Crowley, Tammy Bruce

Tier 5- aka 'WTF are they doing on the radio?'
Jim Sumpter, Joe Scarborough & sidekick, Mike Huckabee

All the hosts I bolded I think would be tier 5 or below, because none of them are on the Talkers list. Of course, that list isn't known for accuracy but it's one of the few available.

Schnitt, Valentine, Press, Crowley, Bruce, et. al. aren't on the talkers list and I don't think they're higher than the list.

 

[amfmxm]

Lib Talk: Yeah, there is a pecking order...

First Tier--Ed Schultz, Stephanie Miller, Randi Rhodes, Thom Hartmann, Mike Malloy

Second Tier-- Lionel, Rachel Maddow (basically gone to TV now), David Bender, Mark Walsh & David Goodfriend ("Left Jab")

Third Tier-- Young Turks, Mark Maron, Sam Seder

 

[OhioMediaWatch]

Fascinating input.

(And yes, Jay Marvin, if that's you here...you make a good point. That's another discussion we've had all over this board in other threads.)

I see most of you are of like mind on where the various hosts go. I like the addition of a "1B" tier, since Rush and Hannity really do belong up there by themselves (give or take Mr. Noory and the UFO Parade at night).

The Salem hosts are an odd bunch. They do owe much of whatever they get from being on large-market company O&Os. Medved probably gets a nudge because he's one of the higher-profile Salem hosts, and used to sub for Rush.

For that matter, Glenn Beck gets a nudge being a Premiere host, but he's been on large market non-CC sticks (CBS' WPHT/Philly among them).

Is Dr. Laura still a tier 2 or 3 host? She's made some recovery from basically falling off the Premiere map when her own company took over the show - though Premiere sells it. I'm not sure she's back up to 2, though. She doesn't have nearly the midday/PM drive (PT) clearances she had before, though she's still kicking butt on CC's KFI in Los Angeles.

I take the "Talkers" survey with a grain of salt, frankly. No, a truckload. There are hosts in their "Heavy Hundred" list with audience numbers you'd have to get a microscope to find. "Duke and the Doctor" is on their list..and I haven't even accidentally STUMBLED upon that show in my travels around the country!

 

[OhioMediaWatch]

Lib Talk: Yeah, there is a pecking order...

First Tier--Ed Schultz, Stephanie Miller, Randi Rhodes, Thom Hartmann, Mike Malloy

Second Tier-- Lionel, Rachel Maddow (basically gone to TV now), David Bender, Mark Walsh & David Goodfriend ("Left Jab")

Third Tier-- Young Turks, Mark Maron, Sam Seder

I'd pretty much agree with your first tier, in our liberal talk division.

I'd put Rachel up there, if she was sticking around on the radio side with any significant presence. But it looks like Air America is moving Ron Reagan from a one-hour show to three in the 6-9 PM (ET) slot, due to the demands of Rachel's MSNBC schedule. They'll throw a "hail mary" in AM drive with a combination of clips from Maddow's MSNBC show the night before, and some unspecified "new radio content".

(I think if AAR continues to survive, some posters on this board will be offered its AM drive time slot at some point. I don't mean Jay Marvin, who's presumably happy in Denver, but just random posters with no radio background.)

I have a problem with your "second tier". What is a "Left Jab" and who broadcasts it? I've never heard of it. Of course, I have no libtalkers here in Northeast Ohio anymore, but...I've never heard of that show. I'm not sure a show that is not widely known in the business can be in the second tier.

 

[amfmxm]

I'd pretty much agree with your first tier, in our liberal talk division.

I'd put Rachel up there, if she was sticking around on the radio side with any significant presence. But it looks like Air America is moving Ron Reagan from a one-hour show to three in the 6-9 PM (ET) slot, due to the demands of Rachel's MSNBC schedule. They'll throw a "hail mary" in AM drive with a combination of clips from Maddow's MSNBC show the night before, and some unspecified "new radio content".

(I think if AAR continues to survive, some posters on this board will be offered its AM drive time slot at some point. I don't mean Jay Marvin, who's presumably happy in Denver, but just random posters with no radio background.)

I have a problem with your "second tier". What is a "Left Jab" and who broadcasts it? I've never heard of it. Of course, I have no libtalkers here in Northeast Ohio anymore, but...I've never heard of that show. I'm not sure a show that is not widely known in the business can be in the second tier.

"Left Jab" is just a one-hour show aired on Sirius/XM's America Left channel (XM 167), Saturdays @ 11AM with a repeat on Sunday afternoon. Like you I don't live within earshot of a terrestrial lib-talker, so I get mine from XM. Walsh is an investment broker of some sort who was CEO of the first ill-fated AAR ownership group, and Goodfriend is a DC attorney who shows up on MSNBC panels a lot as a lefty rep. From a talent standpoint, they really belong in the First Tier, but probably can't afford to give up their day jobs. Fast & funny and on-point with great guests. I've been listening to them for two or three years, so I guess I'd forgotten that they weren't part of the ground-level radio scene.

Lefty talk is still only about 4 years old, and has had some real rough patches, but appears to be gaining a foothold. But to this point, once you get past the two from Jones (Dial Global), the two from Nova M, and a couple from AAR, the field is wide open. Ain't no 4th Tier to speak of... unless you start counting some of the AAR & XM weekend stuff... or locals.

BTW, one of the real glaring weaknesses is the lack of a compelling AMD talent. "Young Turks" sucks, Press is a great guy but not morning drive material. I guess Steph is the Morning Drive star on the west coast. They need to back her up to 3A-6A PT to get her into AMD on the east coast where all them Dems live and then refeed LA & SF.

 

[OhioMediaWatch]

"Left Jab" is just a one-hour show aired on Sirius/XM's America Left channel (XM 167), Saturdays @ 11AM with a repeat on Sunday afternoon. Like you I don't live within earshot of a terrestrial lib-talker, so I get mine from XM. Walsh is an investment broker of some sort who was CEO of the first ill-fated AAR ownership group, and Goodfriend is a DC attorney who shows up on MSNBC panels a lot as a lefty rep. From a talent standpoint, they really belong in the First Tier, but probably can't afford to give up their day jobs. Fast & funny and on-point with great guests. I've been listening to them for two or three years, so I guess I'd forgotten that they weren't part of the ground-level radio scene.

I watch the left-leaning talk segment nearly as much as the conservative talkers, and I'd never heard of the show. I kind of recognized them from their AAR past (I think Goodfriend was on air there, even, for a while on a weekend show). But I didn't know they were doing a show of any sort now.

They can be the best, fastest, funniest hosts in America, but they're not first-tier if very few know of them and they're only on satellite radio...even in the libtalk subsection of talk radio. But I'll try to remember to give 'em a listen on XM if I'm around when they're on.

BTW, one of the real glaring weaknesses is the lack of a compelling AMD talent. "Young Turks" sucks, Press is a great guy but not morning drive material. I guess Steph is the Morning Drive star on the west coast. They need to back her up to 3A-6A PT to get her into AMD on the east coast where all them Dems live and then refeed LA & SF.

Not happening. Steph is also, of course, a local morning host for KTLK/1150, her Los Angeles flagship, and she has a decent following on the West Coast. You risk giving that up, and burying her into late overnights (they aren't gonna repeat it into AMD, it's a "live" show, really), for a risk going East.

For whatever reason, I think her show fits fine as a 9-noon ET show, but that's when I've always heard it.

The problem, as you state, is that there's just not enough really good talent to fill out this list. I'm not sure there ever will be, as the liberal talk segment has stagnated in the past year or two.

 

[FTL_Ian]

I know one host who posts here (often times erroneously) and who crows about others' demise.

He'd give anything to be like a No. 3-4 tiered host and rub shoulders with people like Rusty Humpheries, Tom Hartman, Michael Reagan, Hugh Hewitt and Stephanie Miller when in reality he's nowhere near any kind of tier.

Oh, Donnie, while I appreciate you thinking of me so much, allow me to clarify. You don't "know" much of anything about me and you certainly don't know me or what motivates me. When I'm at a convention it's to "rub shoulders" with decision makers like PDs and GMs. Why would I spend time chatting up the competition? As an independent I don't have much in common with them from a business perspective. They work for someone, I don't. If I'm going to talk to syndicated talk hosts at a convention, it'd be Dave Ramsey (Who I haven't seen at a convention, though I walked into his head several times in L.A. - his ads were the elevator doors. I think it cost him $10k for that!) - now that's an entrepreneur worth admiring.

 

[Don62]

Ian, I'm sure you'd love to be considered in the same sentence as those hosts I mentioned, such as Bill Bennett, Lionel, Big Eddie, Lars Larson, Dean Edel, The G-Man, et. al. Your show, however, isn't anything near their tier. ;D

It isn't anything personal, Ian. It's just a reaction to your over-the-top reaction and near-joy you had in pointing out a competitor's demise.

Yes, Reagan's show isn't doing well.

But apparently, more people prefer to listen to him and those others.

Laugh all you want about it. Take shots at him. Stab him in the back.
Go after me for calling you out on this arrogance.

Is it really your place to come on these boards and crow about what may happen to a competitor?

Have you no class?

You still haven't told us what tier your show is?
How many listeners does it have with that coveted Sat. night demo?

It's laughable to think you're any kind of threat to that giant Savage.

 

[FTL_Ian]

Let's not rehash your same old trolling, Don. I'll answer your question that relates to the topic of this thread, and for the rest you can continue posting on the thread I started, since you already derailed that one:
http://boards.radio-info.com/smf/index.php/topic,117274.0.html

What tier is FTL in? How about the profitable, stable tier? Or you can just pick whatever number makes you feel special.

 

[Don62]

Derailed? You're the one whose ego keeps going after other superior competitors.

If Beck came on these boards and savaged Savage or Hannity, don't you think someone would speak out against him?

No PD of their right mind would dream of placing your show alongside the likes of the bottom Top 20 hosts like G. Gordon Liddy and Hew Hewitt.

I don't see any of those professional hosts trying to take you out here on these boards.

What if gunner Liddy - the great host he was/ is - came here and read some similar screel to that blather you posted about some misfortune happening to your show?
What if one of your affiliates cancels you?

Would you like us to cheer at your misfortune?

Don't think it won't happen. Even Limbaugh has been dropped in several markets.
Glenn Beck's show has been dropped in the past, as has Laura Ingraham, Dr. Laura, Neal Boortz, Medved's, Jim Bohannon's, Larry King's....

Oh, that's right. Your show's too successful to fail.

I'm still waiting on your tier. What is your audience level? A few hundred listeners?

 

[SeanMGilbow]

Lib Talk: Yeah, there is a pecking order...

First Tier--Ed Schultz, Stephanie Miller, Randi Rhodes, Thom Hartmann, Mike Malloy

Second Tier-- Lionel, Rachel Maddow (basically gone to TV now), David Bender, Mark Walsh & David Goodfriend ("Left Jab")

Third Tier-- Young Turks, Mark Maron, Sam Seder

I would add Frangela, Stephanie Miller's substitute, to the list somewhere. The gals host a weekend show on KTLK in Los Angelas and are known for their appearances on VH1's "Best Week Ever." With Rachel going to morning drive, Clear Channel and Dial Global have an opportunity to put the duo in afternoon drive on the West Coast and 7 to 10 p.m. East Coast, with the hope this will be a ratings booster for progressive talk stations in the East.

 

[FTL_Ian]

Focus, Don: tiers.


Anyway, on-topic: Can someone define what they mean by 2nd and 3rd tier? 1st tier was well defined earlier, but the others have just had hosts lumped in them with no explanation to the qualification parameters.