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Talk About Obsolete!

G

gunterm

I'm copying this from another message board because I liked this story so much :D



There is a OLD AM station in my town , came on in 1929. Back in the eighties, the station had a chief engineer quit after a lengthy salary battle , which he lost . But right before he left, he sabatoged the transmitter and fried it's insides. The Corporate engineer came out to look at the damage, and then realized they couldn't get parts for a transmitter this old. So the GM, who was determined that the station was NOT gonna buy a new transmitter, came out to the site to examine the situation. The transmitter was an RCA. So the GM said " OK, it's an RCA, let's call RCA and maybe they can help us out" When they sent RCA the model number and other stats on the transmitter , RCA said "We can't find any record that this transmitter even existed" So, at the station's expense . an RCA Factory Rep was flown in to look at the transmitter. He looked at the transmitter and said "What the f*** is THIS? I've NEVER seen this transmitter before" So, he made a series of phone calls back to RCA Corporate. After some archive research , it was determined that the transmitter was a PROTOTYPE, and it was never put into full production. And evidently, way back in 1929, RCA offered the transmitter free to radio stations as kind of a test marketing of the new model . Well, that particular model never went into full production and the GM was told that from his examination of the innards of the transmitter, it had been "jerryrigged" refitted and rewired and screwed around with by so many people over 55 years that there was NO WAY it could be rehabilitated and that it would have to be replaced. After that , the GM bought in a bunch of out of town engineers and the enginering staff of thier local sister TV station and after about a week of doing god knows what to that ancient transmitter , they FINALLY got it back on the air. I knew one of the engineers involved , and he said,"for what they paid us for the labor, the parts,and the travel expenses , they could have simply brought a new transmitter. " ( Epolog: In 2000 Clear Channel brought the station. The first thing they did was rip out that 1929 transmitter and replace it with used recent one from one of thier other stations which had just gotten a new transmitter. )
 
good story. oldie but goodie. i've been around a few.had a station using an old RCA control board forever, like you see in those 50's photo's of AM stations.That old RCA transmitter sure sounded good in it's day,talk about true analog...Power was much cheaper back then.today would cost a mint to run it.
 
Typical sales whore manager!

Sounds like the WORST kind of manager to work for! Talk about short sighted! This guy is a cake taker!
 
gunterm said:
( Epolog: In 2000 Clear Channel brought the station. The first thing they did was rip out that 1929 transmitter and replace it with used recent one from one of thier other stations which had just gotten a new transmitter. )
Click to expand...

I am more than a little skeptical of the idea that a 1929 transmitter would be in use in the 90's. First, I don't believe that any of the tubes in use in '29 were made much past the first part of the 40's. Then, components would have expired, worn out and such. At some point, everything from tube sockets to relays or contactors would have expired.
 
DavidEduardo said:
gunterm said:
( Epolog: In 2000 Clear Channel brought the station. The first thing they did was rip out that 1929 transmitter and replace it with used recent one from one of thier other stations which had just gotten a new transmitter. )
Click to expand...

I am more than a little skeptical of the idea that a 1929 transmitter would be in use in the 90's. First, I don't believe that any of the tubes in use in '29 were made much past the first part of the 40's. Then, components would have expired, worn out and such. At some point, everything from tube sockets to relays or contactors would have expired.
Click to expand...

It can be done. Tubes can be rebuilt, and a fully trained engineer who knows the transmitter inside out, can make modifications as needed. Let's remember that the transmitter in this situation, was a prototype. It was also discovered several mods had been made.

But as has already been stated, it may cost more to revive an old beast, vs getting a new one.

Andy
 
It's really not much trouble to substitute new tube types, sockets or whatever else is needed at time goes by.
The parts that survive are "good" parts. Age and use takes out the weak components.
If the GM had just paid the CE, the whole problem would never have happened.

Doesn't WSM 650 have a really old transmitter still on site?

My beer fridge is now 80 years old and still runs great. Well, now that I've said that, it'll probably screw up....
 
No old transmitters at WSM- a DX-50, a 3DX50, and a BE-AM5 for use on the back-up antenna. WLW still has the 1928 Western Electric 7A 50 KW transmitter that was also used as the driver to the RCA1 500KW rig. Paul Jellison ran it on New years Eve, Y2K, and it is still maintained.
 
I'm not sure if it has been discussed before but the WLW story is really interesting, especially when you get to the 500kW transmitter years (where they used a huge cooling pond for the transmitter).
 
Andyf101 said:
It can be done. Tubes can be rebuilt, and a fully trained engineer who knows the transmitter inside out, can make modifications as needed. Let's remember that the transmitter in this situation, was a prototype. It was also discovered several mods had been made.
Click to expand...

That transmitter would have to be essentially a recent generation device in a very old box. Tubes can be rebuilt. I have an 892 and an 833 in my office as conversation pieces. The 892 could be rebuilt, but the glass envelope 833 likely could not. Changing sockets and putting in a new tube type probably required a redesign of the driver stage. Transformers from that era would never last the 80 years as they generally were open wound with some type of cloth or mica dialectric both of which would become brittle and crack away over time. Chokes and capacitors probably lost their oil fill, too. Exact replacements would not be available... similar for switches and / or relays.

Then there is the size... a late 40's RCA 1 kw rig was three wide cabinets (about 2 rack widths per cabinet) or about 15 feet wide.

I suppose the transmitter could have been modified over the years, but as everyone is posting, it was not the original rig and replacement would be far cheaper than repair.
 
I think having a First Class ticket in the day counts as a degree. And most of us all have graduated magna *** Laude from the College of Hard Shocks.

DE...You'd be suprised at how many caps, switches and tubes survive over 80 years. They may not meet tight specs of today, but operate fine. I was listening to my 1932 Atwater-Kent and Philco Model 90 this weekend, many factory tubes and original filters from the Philadelphia factories and never recapped.

That said, you're likely correct that the transformers may have survived, but 24/7 service took it's toll on electrolytics and small components. Also, having RCA 250 watter as backup that was originally pressed into service in 1947, even retubed, it would only make 85% modulation compared to a '62 BTA-1R main. I doubt any station would let such an inefficient xmtr with low mod levels run in today's competitive airwaves. And we went through what, at least two frequency shifts since '29? I also doubt a '29 xmtr would meet FCC Certification today.

It's still a great story.
 
Yes, many parts will survive seemingly forever. My '36 Philco 116X went dead (audio dead) last year.
I found that a 1 meg carbon resistor, which only fed the screen or supressor grid of ONE audio tube (forget which) had opened.
A screen grid draws hardly any current at all, so I was shocked that after 70 yrs of service it finally failed.
Only 3 tubes have been replaced, the others still measure 'way up on the tester.
Of course I have changed the filter caps long ago.

My '27 Atwater Kent model 35 still has all but one original tube, they are Cunningham 201As.

I have a 250 watt RCA modulation transformer somewhere.. it was real nice when I had my pirate station.
Haven't used it since 1991. Is it obsolete?
Wonder what that thing would fetch on e-bay?

A first class ticket is a degree. Even if no longer "honored" by the FCC.
I was disgusted to learn that it was being dropped right about the time I was graduating from radio engineering school.
I have my diploma from Valpo Tech, which has been defunct now for 20 years. The school, not the diploma.

When I was a lad, I thought I would get my 1st class license after taking the CIE, Cleaveland Institute of Electronics courses.
Now I know they were a diploma mill, and am very glad I went to a hard-nosed old school instead.

Some people feel that any fully tamed technology is obsolete as soon as the users are satisfied with it, and it's time to move on to the next thing. Others feel that obsolescence comes when the mfr stops supporting the product.
Then there are people like the engineer in this thread, who think nothing is obsolete until THEY can't support it anymore.
Like the tin man in the Wizard of Oz, if you replace one part at a time, you get something that is new AND old.
Maybe it's still the same transmitter, maybe it's not.
 
I have tremendous respect for engineers that have their P-1
(First Class License)...

I earned mine on July 21, 1981 for another reason - to work at AM
stations with a directional-array, you needed a P-1, even if
you were a DJ...

Yup, I recieved mine right as they announced the P-1 and P-2
(Second Class License) would merge as one; then they made it a
"Lifetime General" in mid-1985...

I saved the sample tests from over the years, and I'd say I've
forgotten about 99 and 44/100 percent of it, much of it with
technically-inclined info...

Great story on the RCA Xmtr, btw...I've only seen one old
RCA Xmtr in person, and it was used as a very-reliable backup
in 1996 at then-1290 KHSL, Chico, CA: a 5kw DA-N station...
--jay
 
WNWI 1080, when it was at Valpo tech, used a 250w RCA from the 40's.
The chrome deco style was gorgeous. On cold mornings, (daytimer) the cold-cathode voltage regulator tubes did
not like to fire up in the under-heated building. As a backup in Chico, California this might not be a problem, but
if someone was expecting such a beast to come on line quickly, they'd need to keep it warm at least, or change
out the regs to solid-state. But then you can't watch the modulation in the blue glow anymore. :'(
They had a 2-mirror system which allowed the DJ to see the ACTUAL meters on xmittr through windows from the console, one of
the slope-front-and-back tube RCAs with the big beautiful rotary pot knobs.

I bought one of those knobs NOS from Fair Radio, and plan to build a board someday, molding new knobs from that original.

They had a Hallicrafters SW in the back wall panel for checking WWV. I heard some stories once about
when they unhooked the coax from the antenna and connected it up to the Hallicrafters in the evening.
Even the old radio guys were impressed. This was a few years before my time there.
 
Andy, what the 'f' are you talking about? David has a VALID point, and YOU are contradicting yours.

It is extremely unlikely not only from a technical, but also from a business standpoint that some obscure prototype RCA rig from the 20's would even meet the current technical specifications required by the FCC. I don't care if the CE was the Good Lord Almighty himself. For it to have been maintained, modified or otherwise made to meet the criteria for an AM broadcast station in the 90's while still maintaining its basic design (and SIZE) is purely ludicrous and extremely improbable.

Not enough for you? What about the operating costs of such an inefficient, finicky old boat anchor? What GM or OM in his right mind would vie to continue paying engineers to continually modify the unit, replace tubes and tube sockets, mod transformers, resistors, tank coils, etc and nearly kill themselves trying to modify this old bug-zapper, and bear the enormous cost of electricity required to operate this old widow-maker in the interest of not spending 6 months electric bill on a new TX??

Andy, Have you ever seen an AM TX from the 1920's? The shack would be bigger than your house and it would have to be staffed 24/7 by a minimum of TWO engineers! [EDIT]


-A


[EDIT-inflammatory]
 
I've seen a 100 watt transmitter from the mid 30s used as a backup.Used very little,from it's birth,so it still worked.
 
Andyf101 said:
David,

Why don't you just stick to posting all your wonderful ratings data, and stay out of the engineering board. I bet you don't even have an engineering degree.
Click to expand...

I was CE and built, mostly from scratch, a dozen stations in Ecuador in the 60's and was licensed there as the equivalent of a PE. I was CE of WUNO in San Nuan, WQII in San Juan, WZNT in San Juan, and as recently as around 1997 was, for a while, Chief Operator ofr KLVE in LA.
 
Alan Fletcher said:
[EDIT-reference to deleted material]
Click to expand...

My favorite story of engineering vs. clueless management is the oft-repeated one about engineers who had one very crispy burnt looking tube... generally smoked ceramic base, with burnt looking metal cooling fins... which they hauled out every time they needed money for something. "Boss, the tube went again in the a) lightening strike b) power surge c) vandalism lastt night, and I gotta order a new one. I need $1,800."

The boss, not wanting to admit that they could not tell a tube from a relay, generally approved.
 
Andyf101 said:
It doesn't make any difference to me if this was a true story or a fable. It was an extremely interesting and entertaining thread, until David showed up and posted his skepticism.
Click to expand...

We are adults now. The Tooth Fairy and the Easter Bunny are seen for what they are... fantasies. There is no point in making up a story about something that is patently untrue and really serves no purpose except to heighten tensions and misconceptions between engineering and management.

The 19th picture from the top at http://www.davidgleason.com/Costa Rica Photos.htm shows a 40's vintage 1 kw AM transmitter in use at TIJC 675 in San José in mid-1963. The box was, to say the least, enormous. As has been posted, the power supply was known for reducing the size of the engineering community.
 
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