Talk on FM?

[Kabrich]

Everyone seems to be missing the elephant in the room.

Talk Radio has not been financially successful in South Florida for literally 20+ years.

WIOD-AM was #4 Persons 25-54 in the Winter Book 1995. It had always had local personalities, like the likes of which will NEVER be seen in South Florida Radio ever again. Within a year, Cox sold the station to Bud Paxson for $13 Million - and radio stations were selling for 12x cash flow at that time (and Bud was overpaying, burning through his HSN money). For those slow in math, that means with all the local talent and ratings, at the end of the year, the station made less than $1M profit. The annual legal bills (due in no small part to the highly local staff) was more than the annual profit.

Former Cox VP Bob Greene wanted to do FM Talk circa 1999 when what is now WTMI was acquired. Bob had been the GM of WIOD-AM and knew the market well. Even in his best plans, he projected a multi-million dollar shortfall for the first 3 years, breakeven the 4th year before turning a short profit in the 5th year. Needless to say, the station never went talk.

Furthermore, as talk has bombed so badly in South Florida with PPM (just look at Neil Rogers numbers going from Diary to PPM - where he hardly broke a 1 share), its even LESS viable today than it was 10 years ago.

Dream all you want, but a poorly rated music station can turn more profit than a well programmed talked station in South Florida - and some major shift of economies will have to happen in South Florida before anyone will consider FM talk in this era.

 

[smedge2006]

I dare say that at least some of WIOD's problems were due to overpaying for Dolphins rights. Those weren't critical to the success of the station the way Neil, R&S, and Hendrie were.

I assume you're not asserting cash flow and profit are the same thing.

The annual legal bills were due to the indecency fights, including not just the FCC but Jack Thompson -- the latter sui generis -- one of a kind -- as the lawyers would say. In this day
of $325k minimum fines, that kind of skirting the line will never happen again at any station, unless the Supreme Court throws the whole indecency framework out someday. In other words, I think you can put on winning local radio without necessarily running up as many billable hours.

A Neil Rogers hamstrung by aforementioned restrictions obviously could not put forth his best effort, and at 67 what did he have to prove? What is wrong with radio today is that we have been unsuccessful at finding the next Neil Rogers.

If cheap, mediocre radio is the only kind debt-service-laden owners can afford, local can be done cheap and mediocre as well. Just stop screening and hire opinion-less moderators for the going DJ/board-op wage. Let the callers be the stars. Paul Gonzalez made that kind of radio interesting for years in Tampa, and I doubt he ever got a salary approaching Neil Rogers, or even that of Bob Lassiter.

 

[Kabrich]

Incorrect.

Dolphins rights fees were high but not stratosphere. If memory serves correct, it was actually profit from the Fins that was the profit of the station - even with station rated highly Persons 25-54. However, new owners made it very clear rights fees were going up dramatically when rights expired in either 1996 or 1997. That was the straw that broke the camel's back - and made selling easy.

As for indecency, that wasn't the issue. Most legal fees had to do with other issues with a high profile, vocal, local staff. Thus the legal fees would continue.

And finally, as noted, PPM, especially in South Florida, shows just how FEW hosts know what they are doing - and those that have the self-editting ability will be able to command big dollars.

Nothing in your post shows any chance of success. Less than $1M a year profit. Less than $100k a month. Roughly $3k a day. Much easier to put on a poorly programmed music station and make more than that.

 

[Faraway]

WIOD was profitable only one year of the 8 years or so Neil was at WIOD under Cox. And that one year was the last year, when Cox trimmed expenses to look good for a sale to Paxson. I'm not pulling this info out of my butt. One day on air, Neil Rogers relayed the Bob Neil story and did not disagree with the assessment. Altough Neil liked to blame the 'Fins and Hurricanes, the rights fees weren't that out of whack, considering the market size and the fact the market was all about the football.

The elephant in the room, which many of you are still in denial over, is that the great WIOD, even at its ratings height, was a money loser. Critically acclaimed and derservedly so, but it was a business model that didn't work. I'm not dissing Neil, Rick and Suds, etc. I'm stating reality. In fact, I bet the current WIOD is more profitable! Still, it's reaping no where near the billing or as profitable as WBGG, so this nonsense of Big flipping to WIOD-FM is silly and ill-informed.

Don't blame this on any evil ownership cabal. This is Miami. Celebrate it.

 

[jmtillery]

Ok Sports Fans... This ISN'T rocket science. We can look at this the expensive way, or we can view it the easy and less expensive way.

Sure, an operator can hire expensive air talent and go all out from the start. And, yes, there will be losses in the beginning taking this route. The profits will materialize wihin 5-years of inception. That's Plan "A".

Or, Clear Channel can consider Plan "B" and do it the easy way from the beginning, and that is simulcast WIOD on FM. The expense in operating WIOD is already there, so there are NO additional operating expenses as this would be a simulcast operation and not a seperate entity. The only expense on the FM side will be the power bill to operate the transmitter as the majority of the other FM operating expenses will be completely eliminated.

The question is will the increased WIOD billing be enough to offset the revenue loss from the former music FM? If the answer is CC is making money as a result of FM cost cutting through the simulcast and inclreased billing on WIOD as a result of same simulcast, then it makes sense to simulcast. If the answer is there will be an actual loss with no chance of revenue recovery, then it may make sense, on the surface to leaves all as is for now. However, as long as WIOD remains AM only, its revenue and market share will continue to decline.

 

[JayR]

I'll repeat what I mentioned earlier about a way to do it. The people at sofloradio.com are doing their thing very well without a stick. I'd bet they'd do it for a revenue-sharing deal. Florida is a "right to work" state, so there are no unions to preclude something like that happening.

[T]hey could just pick up Jorge Rodriguez and Nicole Sandler have local news, and fill in the rest with syndication and they'd be golden. It shouldn't be a conservative or liberal station, but have a bunch of different ideas and opinions, and not rely solely on politics either. What a concept!

Cox, contact me. I'll program it for you!

Nicole Sandler is rebroadcasted on SoFloRadio; it does not originate from there.

I would put Joe Castello (with Gio Ochoa), Jorge Rodriguez (with Boca Brian, mind you), Brian "The Beast" London (with Lisa Sculnick, a/k/a Ajent 99, a/k/a Lisa Gale) and...

Howard David (hey, we need to provide Boca Brian with bits and drops for the station).

Hey Cox, contact fmboi...he will now program the station for you!

;D

 

[radioguy39nj]

WHDR and WBGG have very low ratings, so something will have to be done eventually. Eventually, advertisers won't buy. 24-hour live and local news/talk is likely a pipe dream. Local from AM drive to late evenings (5 AM-10 PM) is more realistic. Expensive talent doesn't have to be imported from "up north".

Slightly off topic, I see another synergy between Miami and New York. Rock stations don't do well in either market.

 

[Stormychuck]

JMTILLERY and Smedge2006 again spot right on. Correct this is NOT rocket science, utilizing numbers and stat's from 13, 14, or 15 years ago referencing WIOD to make a point about why talk radio didn't work in Miami begs to differ why it wouldn't work on present day 2010 FM radio.

Touting what did or didn't work for AM talk radio all those years ago in Miami by far is no reflection as to how FM/talk may fare present day, that's the topic basically, reiterating the idea of FM/talk in Miami, how can one say or prove it won't work when it has never been experienced before, some have missed the point, times have changed and it's time for broadcast operator's and programmers to think out-side the box move ahead and use the next tool available for a news/talk format and that's FM.

To some whatever it is that's now currently on AM radio will in fact not work on FM, that's because they say so, "the nay-sayer's", everyone can agree to disagree, however broadcasters across the country more recently have started utilizing the FM's in news/talk capacity's, so some are attempting to think out-side-the-box.


One of Miami's FM need's to be sacrificed, it's been indicated that WBGG according to some, is a high biller and pulling in astronomical number's so I'm sure some well respected others will have some differences of opinion regarding that statement and WBGG.

 

[fmboi]

I'll repeat what I mentioned earlier about a way to do it. The people at sofloradio.com are doing their thing very well without a stick. I'd bet they'd do it for a revenue-sharing deal. Florida is a "right to work" state, so there are no unions to preclude something like that happening.

[T]hey could just pick up Jorge Rodriguez and Nicole Sandler have local news, and fill in the rest with syndication and they'd be golden. It shouldn't be a conservative or liberal station, but have a bunch of different ideas and opinions, and not rely solely on politics either. What a concept!

Cox, contact me. I'll program it for you!

Nicole Sandler is rebroadcasted on SoFloRadio; it does not originate from there.

I would put Joe Castello (with Gio Ochoa), Jorge Rodriguez (with Boca Brian, mind you), Brian "The Beast" London (with Lisa Sculnick, a/k/a Ajent 99, a/k/a Lisa Gale) and...

Howard David (hey, we need to provide Boca Brian with bits and drops for the station).

Hey Cox, contact fmboi...he will now program the station for you!

;D

Just because Sandler doesn't originate from sofloradio doesn't mean she wouldn't be open to doing this. Her show is one of the better online shows I've heard (it originates on her blog at radioornot.com).

I still think the sofloradio lineup would be great to fill much of the broadcast day. There's your live and local for you!

 

[smedge2006]

I think what complicates things is the relative lack of success of WIOD and the Beck-Limbaugh-Hannity juggernaut compared to other markets.

If this were a market where the Glenn-Rush-Sean station is highly rated (Tampa for example), there'd be little argument. Just move the B-L-H station to FM. But that type of radio has always underperformed in South Florida, relative to other places. Language is a factor, of course. The people who would agree with those three and the people who prefer Anglophone talk radio are not necessarily one in the same. M-FtL was one of two top 20 markets where Rush Limbaugh did not have the dominant talk show in the 90's. The other being San Francisco.

Thus talk of a different approach, maybe something like the old WIOD, which when you think of it was sort of the AM ancestor to so called "FM Talk" formats like Real Radio up the coast and the late KLSX in LA. WIOD's profits wouldn't look so meager to companies that weren't laden with debt. Cheap may keep local off the air. But if some internet radio thing can be local, while over-the-air radio aggressively asserts that it has to be cheap and somewhere else rather than local and a little more pricey (what happened to live endorsements?), if over-the-air radio insists it can't program to get audience, something is very wrong with the business model.

 

[Mike Sheridan]

WHDR and WBGG have very low ratings, so something will have to be done eventually. Eventually, advertisers won't buy. 24-hour live and local news/talk is likely a pipe dream. Local from AM drive to late evenings (5 AM-10 PM) is more realistic. Expensive talent doesn't have to be imported from "up north".

Slightly off topic, I see another synergy between Miami and New York. Rock stations don't do well in either market.

I don't think a good all news format is a pipe dream it just takes more than the minimal effort that big group owners are willing to put forth. WCBS-AM does a good job. It seems like a few stations around the country could put together the format and share their resources. Blocks of national news, local news, national sports, local sports, and features doesn't sound like it would be hard to do. Then again maybe in this day of the internet maybe it's not needed anymore?

I do like to listen to WCBS-AM at night while driving.

 

[radioguy39nj]

WHDR and WBGG have very low ratings, so something will have to be done eventually. Eventually, advertisers won't buy. 24-hour live and local news/talk is likely a pipe dream. Local from AM drive to late evenings (5 AM-10 PM) is more realistic. Expensive talent doesn't have to be imported from "up north".

Slightly off topic, I see another synergy between Miami and New York. Rock stations don't do well in either market.

I don't think a good all news format is a pipe dream it just takes more than the minimal effort that big group owners are willing to put forth. WCBS-AM does a good job. It seems like a few stations around the country could put together the format and share their resources. Blocks of national news, local news, national sports, local sports, and features doesn't sound like it would be hard to do. Then again maybe in this day of the internet maybe it's not needed anymore?

I do like to listen to WCBS-AM at night while driving.

All-News is rare outside older established markets in the Northeast and Midwest. LA had two all-news outlets, now only KNX remains. New York still has its two original all-news outlets, WCBS-AM and WINS. I think CBS owns all remaining all-newsers.

My comment was regarding a largely live and local news and talk format; a morning news block followed by talk shows the rest of the day.

 

[jmtillery]

All-News is rare outside older established markets in the Northeast and Midwest. LA had two all-news outlets, now only KNX remains. New York still has its two original all-news outlets, WCBS-AM and WINS. I think CBS owns all remaining all-newsers.

My comment was regarding a largely live and local news and talk format; a morning news block followed by talk shows the rest of the day.

No doubt WCBS New York does an outstanding job with all-news. Of course, I believe we can all agree that putting together a real all-news formatted station (one programmed in house as opposed to re-broadcasting CNN Headline News) can be a very expensive undertaking. Miami did have an all-news outlet in WINZ-AM 940 in the early to mid 70s, and from a personal perspective, I'd be "tickle pink" to hear an all-news outlet once again in the market. However, I'm not convinced I'd place an all-news format on FM in Miami just yet. I do believe a WIOD-FM simulcast with news-talk, heavy on the local news, is more in realistic expectations of showing the best signs of succeeding in our current state of radio and the economy as well as current market demands and projected future market conditions.

It is my belief that it is only a matter of time before news-talk and sports-talk will end up on one of the Miami/Fort Lauderdale FM sticks. Although we have, for the most part, speculated that it will be either WBGG or WHDR, the big question still remains, which I have rhetorically asked all along, is which FM becomes the new "WIOD" and now let's also ask which one becomes sports-talk?

 

[radioguy39nj]

All-News is rare outside older established markets in the Northeast and Midwest. LA had two all-news outlets, now only KNX remains. New York still has its two original all-news outlets, WCBS-AM and WINS. I think CBS owns all remaining all-newsers.

My comment was regarding a largely live and local news and talk format; a morning news block followed by talk shows the rest of the day.

No doubt WCBS New York does an outstanding job with all-news. Of course, I believe we can all agree that putting together a real all-news formatted station (one programmed in house as opposed to re-broadcasting CNN Headline News) can be a very expensive undertaking. Miami did have an all-news outlet in WINZ-AM 940 in the early to mid 70s, and from a personal perspective, I'd be "tickle pink" to hear an all-news outlet once again in the market. However, I'm not convinced I'd place an all-news format on FM in Miami just yet. I do believe a WIOD-FM simulcast with news-talk, heavy on the local news, is more in realistic expectations of showing the best signs of succeeding in our current state of radio and the economy as well as current market demands and projected future market conditions.

It is my belief that it is only a matter of time before news-talk and sports-talk will end up on one of the Miami/Fort Lauderdale FM sticks. Although we have, for the most part, speculated that it will be either WBGG or WHDR, the big question still remains, which I have rhetorically asked all along, is which FM becomes the new "WIOD" and now let's also ask which one becomes sports-talk?

All-news is a very expensive undertaking, which likely explains why CBS owns most of the remaining all-news outlets, including AM-FM simulcast KCBS in SF. The notable exception is Bonneville's WTOP Washington, which significantly increased both its ratings and billings after it migrated to FM. WTOP is now the highest billing station outside NY, LA and Chicago.

Perhaps Cox flips WHDR to news/talk and WBGG simulcasts sports on 940 AM & 105.9 FM. The latter makes sense since CC acquired the Dolphins' rights. Instead of classic rock Big 105.9 it could be Big Sports 105.9. I think you'll get one talk station and one sports station on FM, not two talk stations.

 

[samb15]

Another reason we may not have talk on FM is geographical. Because Florida is a peninsula, most major AM stations have decent market coverage. This occurs for two reasons.

1. AM'ers can aim directional signals from the west at the whole region. With no land to the east of our area, there are no other stations to protect. In many markets (such as Washington) even the largest AM stations have critical gaps in signal due to directional requirements.

2. The ground conductivity is high. AM signals travel through the ground. Rock and dry soil conduct very little. With our high water table and saltwater surroundings, AM carries well in Florida.

While it is nice to hear your favourite programming on FM, are you actually having problems receiving WIOD or AM 940 as you drive around South Florida?

 

[FLjack2]

Bottom line to all our arguments is this: Will the company that flips an FM to talk make more money than they are making in its current format.

So, if there were an FM simulcast of WIOD (for example,) would CC make more money on the simulcast ad rates than they are making on 105.9 or 103.5 or (fill in the blank) solo.

Same for Cox. If they blow up 93 Rock, would they make more money doing syndicated or local talk -- or would they be better off leaving well enough alone.

Right now, in a down economy, everyone is probably lucky (and happy) they are getting the revenue they are getting.

-- how's this for a little wrench into the arguments on the board: Do you think any of the Spanish language companies would have the balls to flip an under performing FM to English talk? I remember when Radio One, an "Urban" company, flipped a station they owned in Philly to "new rock." Blew me away. Eventually it became "The Beat" and was urban. But if the station is under performing, they MIGHT think about it. (probably a very small might)

 

[radioguy39nj]

Another reason we may not have talk on FM is geographical. Because Florida is a peninsula, most major AM stations have decent market coverage. This occurs for two reasons.

1. AM'ers can aim directional signals from the west at the whole region. With no land to the east of our area, there are no other stations to protect. In many markets (such as Washington) even the largest AM stations have critical gaps in signal due to directional requirements.

2. The ground conductivity is high. AM signals travel through the ground. Rock and dry soil conduct very little. With our high water table and saltwater surroundings, AM carries well in Florida.

While it is nice to hear your favourite programming on FM, are you actually having problems receiving WIOD or AM 940 as you drive around South Florida?

That's interesting! I'm not in South Florida, but was a regular visitor for many years to Broward County. WIOD came in pretty well, but 940 AM was questionable at night north of SR 84 or I-75 despite a 50 kW signal.

 

[cd637299]

AM presents problems in office buildings, if people wish to listen at work. That's one of the reasons that quite a few stations stream online now, even for local listening.

Also, my car radio, although decent for both AM & FM, can present an issue if there are thunderstorms. I won't even discuss my former car radio!

940 I believe has to protect Macon GA and the former Montreal station, so the signal is sent out over the Atlantic & possibly southeast. North of SR 84 at night, it must be an issue. I believe their night power is 25kW.

cd

 

[jmtillery]

-- how's this for a little wrench into the arguments on the board: Do you think any of the Spanish language companies would have the balls to flip an under performing FM to English talk? I remember when Radio One, an "Urban" company, flipped a station they owned in Philly to "new rock." Blew me away. Eventually it became "The Beat" and was urban. But if the station is under performing, they MIGHT think about it. (probably a very small might)

The Spanish language broadcasters are business broadcast professionals who happen to operate Spanish languaged radio stations. I believe if any of the Spanish languaged broadcast companies saw an opportunity to "cash-in" with English language news-talk programming, they would take advantage of said opportunity before someone else "beat them to the punch".

As for me, in contrast, I don't speak Spanish (although I should learn), but I would never let that stop me from creating a Spanish language radio station if I saw a market void for such a format. I'd simply hire Spanish speaking professionals who know what they are doing to consult with and play a major role in the planning and implementation of the business plan. I believe the Spanish language broadcasters would view owning an English language news-talk outlet in the same light.

 

[davideduardo]

Because Florida is a peninsula, most major AM stations have decent market coverage.

I think that this is only partially a fact.

Because Florida has a much, much lower population in the late 20's through the mid 30's when the choice AM real estate was doled out, there are few "major" AMs in the state.

While there are a few facilities that were good through the time when urban sprawl started going into the 60's, many have been outgrown by their markets. Examples would be 1460 in Jacksonville, 1250 in the Tampa Bay area and 560 in Miami. There are a few of those old assignments that come close to fully covering their markets, like 620 in Tampa, 580 in Orlando and 610 in Miami, but there are very, very few real major AMs.

A few more have been re-engineered to approach being "major" signals, such as 540 in the Orlando market or 690 in Jacksonville, but they are not capable of covering 100% of today's metros.

1. AM'ers can aim directional signals from the west at the whole region. With no land to the east of our area, there are no other stations to protect.

There is the Domincan Republic and Puerto Rico, both protected by NARBA. Miami's 1140 protects WQII in San Juan, for example. And the east coast FL stations that shoot to the East have such severe protection requirements to the north that they often miss the growth areas of their markets, like 940, 710, 1260 in Miami.

The ground conductivity is high. AM signals travel through the ground. Rock and dry soil conduct very little.

SOuth Florida has good conductivity, but central FL north of the lake is a very low conductivity area, and much of N. FL and the panhandle is almost as low as you can get.

With our high water table and saltwater surroundings, AM carries well in Florida.

Fresh water is not any better a conducter than average land, and the salt water only benefits within a few miles of the coast.

In any case, beyond the fact that FL has so few full market AM signals, the real issue is that most people under 50 don't like AM or have a habit of using it.