TALKERS HEAVY 100...here we go again...

[Holland Cooke]

"Holland and Phil Boyce...what do you think of the bible of talk radio?"

I had a cuppa cawfee with Michael last week, and told him "I don't envy" the process of putting this list together every year.

Tip: DON'T MISS Talkers' New Media Seminar in NYNY, 6/8-9. Everybody-over-two-feet-tall in Talk radio will be there. See www.talkers.com

Anonymous posters: You can attend incognito. Wear your Groucho glasses, "strolling through the crowd like Peter Lorre contemplating a crime." Although it WOULD be a hoot if someone walked in dressed as Fred Flintstone...without otherwise explaining why.

Baseball fans: Come early and stay late. 6/7: Phillies @ Mets. 6/10: Pirates @ Yanks.

HC
www.HollandCooke.com

 

[Radio_Realist]

Anonymous posters: You can attend incognito.

I notice you take frequent shots at those of us who use a pseudonym. The thing is, you use your real name for the purpose of drumming up more business for yourself. There is nothing wrong with such shameless self-promotion. However, just as using your real name helps you improve your personal financial bottom line, some of us would lose jobs or revenue if we used our real names. So, we prefer to use psuedonyms. And there's nothing wrong with that, either.

In either case, whether one uses a real name or a pseudonym, the motivation is the same.

 

[FightingIrish]

And this from a guy who has a pre-war Lionel and post-war Lionel persona. People forget he was a big proponent of attacking Iraq after 9/11. He bought the WMD line completely. Only after it was exposed as nonsense did he begin to change his views, which have grown more and more negative as people watch TeamFailure bungle one thing after another.

interesting.

wonder why he would give so much credibility and leeway to the 9-11 conspiracy groups?

I would think Lionel would be among those to condemn them, but he's got 'questions'.

must be that 'new' post war Lionel talkin'

Why? It's a good conversation starter. Duh!

The fact that you even have to ask that question makes me wonder if you're more about political ideology or radio broadcasting. I know where I'm at.

 

[Al Johnson]

Mr. Boyce, thanks for your informative reply. I wonder why Arbitron feels it necessary to keep complete audience data from Talkers. I notice some newspaper columnists regularly publish demo and daypart numbers, in addition to the seven day 12 plus numbers. Arbitron is a monopoly so they don't need to promote themselves but Talkers audience summary comes out months later so I don't see how accurate "race results" in the magazine would hurt their business.

Radio Realist, I agree. Some people are in a sensitive position and must use pseudonyms. I respect their privacy. Self promotion can be over-used and abused. Posting interesting comments is one thing. Talking about so-called conferences is another. I've been to a few conferences over the years. Sellers go them to drum up business. Those that have clients, meet with clients. Those trying to get clients, go to conferences.

 

[Radio_Realist]

Why? It's a good conversation starter. Duh!

Actually, a good argument can be made that such conversation topic simultaneously attract lunatic fringe callers and chase away more thoughtful, serious callers. More importantly, it can be difficult convincing advertisers that the tin-foil hat wearers are a market segment worth pursuing to sell products to.

The fact that you even have to ask that question

The fact that you made your comment makes we wonder if you understand that the main goal of news/talk radio (like all radio formats) is to sell airtime spots to advertisers. Total ratings numbers are important, but the bottom line is the bottom line. Selling spots is the #1 goal, ratings numbers are just a means to that end. They are not the end itself.

 

[Holland Cooke]

Read the trades. Lately, EVERY Friday is "Black Friday" somewhere...

<< I've been to a few conferences over the years. Sellers go them to drum up business. Those that have clients, meet with clients. Those trying to get clients, go to conferences. >>

TRUE.
What conference promoters are REALLY selling is THE AUDIENCE.
They're selling vendors contact-with-attendees.
Fees attendees pay cover the catering expense.
No secret about that.

But there's real value in, as Woody Allen put it, "showing up."

Why, specifically:
Last Friday, people who work on-air, and program, got fired.
This Friday, more will.
The Friday after that, more will.
It happens. It's an occupational hazard.

The smart ones didn't wait until Black Friday to meet their next boss.
They'd already met him/her at a convention.

Stations I work with OFTEN ask me to recommend candidates for openings. Several program directors I work with are people I introduced to their present boss, after meeting them at the Talkers convention. Had they, and I, not been there, we never would have met.

 

[evnlee]

And this from a guy who has a pre-war Lionel and post-war Lionel persona. People forget he was a big proponent of attacking Iraq after 9/11. He bought the WMD line completely. Only after it was exposed as nonsense did he begin to change his views, which have grown more and more negative as people watch TeamFailure bungle one thing after another.

interesting.

wonder why he would give so much credibility and leeway to the 9-11 conspiracy groups?

I would think Lionel would be among those to condemn them, but he's got 'questions'.

must be that 'new' post war Lionel talkin'

Why? It's a good conversation starter. Duh!

The fact that you even have to ask that question makes me wonder if you're more about political ideology or radio broadcasting. I know where I'm at.

A 'good conversation starter'? good grief!

If that statement is true, then Alex Jones would have a real nationally syndicated program instead of a podcast.

And 'Coast to Coast' interviews with ghost hunters ( another 'good conversation' starter ) would air in dayparts.

There is a reason no self respecting, credible, N/T host wants to give these loons any real airtime: it ends up angering more listeners then it's worth. You will lose advertisers if you give Alex Jones an hour. It's kind of hard to take 'politics' out of the equation when one group is blaming another ( GOP and W ) for 9-11.

Of course, only 'progressive hosts' are the ones 'asking the tough questions'. :

 

[FightingIrish]

Why? It's a good conversation starter. Duh!

Actually, a good argument can be made that such conversation topic simultaneously attract lunatic fringe callers and chase away more thoughtful, serious callers. More importantly, it can be difficult convincing advertisers that the tin-foil hat wearers are a market segment worth pursuing to sell products to.

The fact that you even have to ask that question

The fact that you made your comment makes we wonder if you understand that the main goal of news/talk radio (like all radio formats) is to sell airtime spots to advertisers. Total ratings numbers are important, but the bottom line is the bottom line. Selling spots is the #1 goal, ratings numbers are just a means to that end. They are not the end itself.

You're stating the obvious. Wouldn't you agree that stimulating conversation would actually help keep listeners around so they get to hear the ads?

So, how does talking about stuff you don't agree with chase away advertisers?

Why? It's a good conversation starter. Duh!

The fact that you even have to ask that question makes me wonder if you're more about political ideology or radio broadcasting. I know where I'm at.

A 'good conversation starter'? good grief!

If that statement is true, then Alex Jones would have a real nationally syndicated program instead of a podcast.

And 'Coast to Coast' interviews with ghost hunters ( another 'good conversation' starter ) would air in dayparts.

There is a reason no self respecting, credible, N/T host wants to give these loons any real airtime: it ends up angering more listeners then it's worth. You will lose advertisers if you give Alex Jones an hour. It's kind of hard to take 'politics' out of the equation when one group is blaming another ( GOP and W ) for 9-11.

Of course, only 'progressive hosts' are the ones 'asking the tough questions'. :

Hey, all I know is Coast to Coast is on hundreds of stations across the country. I've heard of George Noory, Art Bell and even Ian Punnett. I've never heard of you.

 

[Radio_Realist]

Wouldn't you agree that stimulating conversation would actually help keep listeners around so they get to hear the ads?

I would agree that stimulating conversations woulf keep listeners listening. However, lunatic fringe conspiracy theories are not "stimulating" conversations.

So, how does talking about stuff you don't agree with chase away advertisers?

There is a whopping big difference between stuff that reasonable people might disagree about, and hare-brained conspiracy claptrap that requires a certain level of reality disconnect to even consider.

 

[FightingIrish]

Wouldn't you agree that stimulating conversation would actually help keep listeners around so they get to hear the ads?

I would agree that stimulating conversations woulf keep listeners listening. However, lunatic fringe conspiracy theories are not "stimulating" conversations.

So, how does talking about stuff you don't agree with chase away advertisers?

There is a whopping big difference between stuff that reasonable people might disagree about, and hare-brained conspiracy claptrap that requires a certain level of reality disconnect to even consider.

You're stating your own opinion, thinking that everyone thinks like you. You bring no facts to the table.

How 'bout backing up your claims with cold, hard facts, just for once?

 

[Radio_Realist]

How 'bout backing up your claims with cold, hard facts, just for once?

OK, It is a cold, hard fact that generally speaking, radio talk shows that dwell on wacky conspiracy theories have fewer listeners than radio talk shows that dwell on topics that are not wacky conspiracy theories.

It is also a cold, hard fact, supported by some very expensive marketing research that the company I worked for funded, the details of which I will not give away for free, that sales of products advertised on talk shows that specialize in wacky conspiracy theories are not as high as sales of products advertised on talk shows that specialize in non-wacky conspiracy theories.

 

[Al Johnson]

If by "shows that specialize in wacky conspiracy theories" you mean George Noory and Art Bell, they are on in the middle of the night. Of course, they have a smaller audience.

 

[evnlee]

Hey, all I know is Coast to Coast is on hundreds of stations across the country. I've heard of George Noory, Art Bell and even Ian Punnett. I've never heard of you.

Hey, all I know is all those guys you listed are on overnights. I never was. There's a reason for that.

FI, why dont you respond to the actual question I asked, which is fair: why are the only N/T hosts that give these nuts ( like prisonplanet ) any significant airtime or consideration progressive?

By your own admission, you don't believe these wacky theories.

I mean, it would be different if they were 'goofing' on these foilhats, but that's not the case.

Look, if Rush Limbaugh started having on scientologists or snake handlers for serious discussion, is that going to make it's way into some 'blog' about how 'crazy' he is by association? I think so.

But, Mike Malloy and Lionel could broadcast from Charlie Sheen's conspiracy bunker, but you 'progressive media bloggers' would whistle right past.

And then you would point the finger and say 'your bringing politics into this radio thread'. Ridiculous. :

 

[kaufcom]

Re: Read the trades. Lately, EVERY Friday is "Black Friday" somewhere...

Stations I work with OFTEN ask me to recommend candidates for openings. Several program directors I work with are people I introduced to their present boss, after meeting them at the Talkers convention. Had they, and I, not been there, we never would have met.

Why are plugging the Talker New Media Seminar in June when there's a better meeting next week right here in L.A. The Radio and Records Talk Radio Seminar, to be held March 8-10, has better speakers and more informative panels. It isn't skewed as far to the right as the Talkers event and excludes a lot of Michael Harrison's friends who are nobody's in the business.

 

[Holland Cooke]

SINCE you mentioned it...

The Radio and Records Talk Radio Seminar, to be held March 8-10

If you'll be attending, please some to my session, "Give More To Get More," on Friday morning, right after Dennis Miller's keynote. I'm moderating a panel of REAL smart guys. Based on last week's conference call to prep the session, I can PROMISE that you'll be glad you came.

HC
www.HollandCooke.com

 

[kaufcom]

Talkers sends out a questionaire to each PD twice a month, asking them to submit the cume for each host on the station, both national and local. I do it for WABC every six months. Talkers then compiles those numbers to come up with an estimated national 12+ cume for each show. Of course not every PD participates so Talkers has to look at the numbers and estimate what they think those numbers actually are. It is in the best interest of each PD to submit the numbers, because he or she should want his own hosts to get the credit they deserve in the final tally.
pb

Thankyou for sharing this information. I hope you don't get in trouble with Arbitron. I've worked for many years in the TV business. In TV, the ratings game is open book. You know the next day if a certain show is winner or a loser. Like Fox's "right wing" version of the Daily Show. You could look at the ratings on Monday morning, and tell not only how many homes tuned in but how many stayed to listen to the whole show. You could see that viewers were bailing on the show every five minutes. In radio, not only is there virtually no information released to the public, but even subscribers like WABC have to wait from 30 to 90 days to find out how a particular show is doing. Also, the collection of ratings data by Arbitron is very unreliable. They are still using diaries and everyone knows how useless they are as ratings tool -- especially when almost half of radio litenings occur in the car! I have seen radio ratings diaries and they are not pretty sight. It is clear that many diary keepers jot down their responses at the end of the ratings period. The TV industry gave up diaries in major markets years ago. The radio business needs to adopt some kind of people meter soon or it will keep losing advertising revenue relative to its measured listenership.

 

[Radio_Realist]

The radio business needs to adopt some kind of people meter soon or it will keep losing advertising revenue relative to its measured listenership.

The problem is that if it does adopt any kind of accurate people meter, then advertisers will discover that not only are the Arbitrons wrong about what stations are most listened to, they'll also learn that the Arbitrons grossly exaggerate how many people listen to terrestrial radio at all.

The one redeeming characteristic of any form of talk radio is that people actually listen to it. Based on reliable marketing research that I've seen, while the number of people that Arbitron claims have a radio turned on are somewhat close to reality, the number of people who only have a radio tuned to a music station faintly playing in the background as nothing more than sonic wallpaper is often more than half the radios turned on! That's doubly true for music stations that target female listeners.

they are on in the middle of the night. Of course, they have a smaller audience.

The question is, are they on in the middle of the night because they cater to the tin-foil-hat crowd, or do they cater to the tin-foil-hat crowd because they are on late at night?

 

[BigBob]

Well, I guess I should reply about the Arbitron stuff bantered around here. I spent 17 years with Arbitron, the last position being VP of Radio Programming services....responsible for things like PD Advantage and the Programmer's Package in Maximiser.

Remember, these are surveyssubject to the survey process of self-reporting (in the diary service). But when you do a survey and get a 5.0 share one book, and a 4.8 share another...and a 5.3 another (each with twelve different weeks of sample), it's not just by chance that the number end up that way. It's all (statistically speaking) the same number. And with 40-60 radio stations making a "book" (with up to 350-400 legal call letters of radio stations making it in the Maximiser database) and there is only 100 share points to go around, you can see why numbers that float around a particular share is a pretty good indication as to what is happening.

Remember, with the Portable People Meter, we are seeing higher cume estimates (the number of different listeners), yet they listen for very short periods of time (Time Spent Listening). The result is the AQH estimate is about 20% lower for many stations. So self-reported diary keepers OVERestimate their listening, while the more passive meter technology (not subject to human recall) shows lower estimates. And having followed three US tests and a few overseas, the numbers are much more stable. But they are also lower. Most people expected there were lots of people who didn't get picked up by the diary - "phantom cume" - and they are right. But those folks don't listen a lot. And the ones who DO listen tune in for shorter periods of time, so the net result are lower ratings (AQH).

Anyway, it's two different methodologies...and you will get different results. But metering is much better than diary or phone surveys where people are asked to recall what they listened to.

That's my 2 cents....

Bob Michaels

 

[Radio_Realist]

But metering is much better than diary or phone surveys where people are asked to recall what they listened to.

You should see the results from marketing research to test creatives about how badly people remember anything they heard on the radio. Metering will tell you if the radio was turned on and to what station. Focus group testing till tell you that whether the radio was turned on or not, if it was a music format, it didn't matter if the radio was turned on or not, nor does it matter much what station it was tuned to.