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"Talkradio 1210" -- No More "Big Talker" Come January?

B

BRUSSTAR

The name was somewhat creative when Bigby was there in the late '90s, but has been sounding really tired of late (like the rest of the station).

Perhaps a new station voice will be on its way as well. How about finding someone who sounds like he's experienced puberty this time?

Hannity tapes from 7-10 PM? Or Beck? You make the call...

Happy New Year.
 
I'd not pick either. I'd try to find some other talker, that would appeal more to Philly tastes than either Beck/Hannity. Why pay big time money to air a show that didn't do well in day parts for the much smaller audience at night.

Maybe a syndicated sports talk show as that time slot gets preempted quite often for Phillies in the summer and fall months, and as the Phils bring in a large audience and spot load for WPHT, maybe just one sports oriented talk show would fill that time slot best. I'd assume they'd want a syndicated show rather than live and local for that time of night to save money. It would augment what their other sports talker WIP does locally at that time.
 
Could it be that Westwood-CBS is making an opportunity to get some of its own shows cleared in Philly? They are launching two new syndicated shows this week: Robert Whul and Doug Urbanski. And maybe they are looking to get Dennis Miller, Fred Thompson, Gayle King and Phil Valentine on in the market, too. Why make money for Premiere and Citadel when you can make money for your own company? And this wouldn't be the first time 1210AM was hobbled by some directives from New York.
 
A nightly local sports talk show on WPHT, considering it would be pre-empted frequently for Phillies game, as well as the occasional Sixers overflow game (as was the case last night) would be feasible, as long as it doesn't overlap too much with what WIP is doing at the same hour, in the event that they, too, are not running a sporting event at the same time. Big markets like Chicago do it. New York used to do it.

George Brusstar said:
Hannity tapes from 7-10 PM?
Click to expand...

George, don't you mean "delay tape"? ::)
 
The world doesn't revolve around Connecticut. With no disrespect toward WTIC, I'm sure the station didn't exactly pioneer the idea of evening sports talk radio.

1210 itself was running Sportsline every night like thirty years ago. WFIL did this for a time in the late 1940s.

It appears **some** syndication will be running on the soon-to-be-called "Talkradio 1210" weeknights 7-10, obviously to be pre-empted like crazy come this Spring. I'm just not sure what. My guess is Hannity, but that's just a hunch.
 
@George Brusstar, I think you have read more into MarcB's comments than he intended. I didn't take his comments to say that the world revolves around Connecticut any more than it revolves around Philly. I didn't take his comments to imply that WTIC invented or pioneered evening sports talk on a regular talk station. We all tend to have home town pride no matter how small our hometowns are. As you know I've got a ton of hometown pride for Wilmington and its radio stations, just as folks from Podunk have pride for their one hometown station, and as folks from Philly have for their many stations.

I simply took MarcB's comment to say that the Hardford station, WTIC is now doing a sports talk show and that my idea of doing a sports talk show in the evening is working in Hartford. I'm making the assumption, when MarcB called WTIC and WPHT sister stations that WTIC like WPHT are both news/talk station rather than WTIC being a Sports Talk station so we're talking apples to apples. Just because Hartford is a smaller market than Philly doesn't make his point less valid as both are Northern metro areas, with liberal leaning populations in those cities, etc.

I didn't remember at the time I posted that post, I do believe that Wilmington's WDEL later in the evening after Laura Ingraham offers some sort of a sports talk show from the bird, which I could also sight as an example of another news/talker doing that, except it's after 9pm rather than 7pm as in the case of WPHT. As WDEL also carries the Phillies both Laura Ingraham and that sports talk show get pre-empted all the time from spring to fall. Yes, Wilmington is much smaller than Phily, but like Hartford, Wilmington too is a Northern Metro with similar populations as Philly with similar tastes. So it's not an original idea, but one that might work well for WPHT and attract the type of listener who'd also tune in for the Phillies games which is why I'd make that choice over either Hannity or Beck.
 
Oh no Mike, I think I read Marc's comment pretty spot-on. He really **does** think the radio world revolves around Connecticut, and hopefully he realizes I'm just taking a friendly (yet valid) jab at him. A quick search will confirm some 60-70% of his comments on the Philly board make at least some passing reference or comparison to things in the Nutmeg State. Sort of like you, Mike, with tying everything to Delaware (grin)-- but with a major difference being that Wilmington is indeed a big part of the overall Philly media market. Plus of course, several of the Wilmington signals are largely available in the Philly ADI-- and most on this radio board are pretty familiar with the small handful of Wilmington stations. None of this could be said for Hartford. The only connection we here have with Connecticut is, well, Marc. Again, all in playful teasing.

(Plus he used the word "copying"-- that's what also got me cranky, especially considering 1210 had Steve Fredericks doing "Sportsline" every night going back decades.)

On a personal note, Mike, I do miss working with you and having great radio conversations in the hallways at WILM. I hope you and your family are doing well.

I do like the idea of 1210's doing a sports "block" beginning at 6, so that pre-emptions for Phillies baseball "flow" better. Problem is afternoon drive does go past 6PM around here, and it does make sense to have a PM drive show going to 7 outside Phillies season.

Stations like WPHT-- Conservative Talk (for now, anyway) with heritage sports play-by-play deals-- have found themselves in an interesting position recently. While the two audiences are **somewhat** compatible (who doesn't want to follow **this** Phillies team?), the constant pre-emptions for baseball are seen by the talk die-hards as unwanted interruptions. Even for casual sports fans within the Talk audience, it can be exhausting (particularly with baseball, in that there are **so** many games. I'm sure the stream numbers for WPHT and other Rush affiliates during the Thursday Businessman's Specials are noticeably bigger. On the flip side, more Phillies fans than not couldn't give a hoot about Beck, Limbaugh, or Hannity-- or their views. The ARB numbers after baseball is done show how much of WPHT's overall cume is thanks to baseball. If the Phillies team of today were playing like the one of say, 1990 or so, 1210's Summer book would look pretty much like the one we're seeing for the station in the wintertime. WABC and other Conservative Talk stations have demonstrated there is life after MLB.

Considering WPHT is pretty much the only News/Talker in town, this is pretty sad. The station-- which has been sounding very stale, in my opinion-- is much to blame. But I think there's more to it. Philly-- once a pioneering, cutting-edge market for Talk Radio-- just isn't a great market for the format anymore. The murders of WCAU and ten years later, WWDB are mostly the culprits. Markets with strong News/Talkers usually have heritage stations that have been ARB leaders for decades (without interruption). Here, Talk fans have learned to find other things. Many will never come back. Again, sad.
 
George, I too miss our discussions at WILM. I hope you and your family are doing well and have a blessed 2011.

I hadn't picked up the theme of Mark's former letters, but then again I don't remember reading them either, but I probably did, if you know what I mean. Given your explanation, I totally understand your friendly jab at our Hartford radio friend. I did wonder at the use of "copy", but chose to not take it negatively, but do understand why you might take it that way.

You're right about Wilmington and Philly having actual ties both as some folks from Philly, work in Wilmington, listen to some Wilmington radio and many Wilmingtonians definitely do listen to Philly radio and work in Philly, plus we root for the same teams, love Tasty Kakes, Philly subs, cheese steaks, the Mummers Parade, etc, etc, etc.
Probably a good number of Philly radio folks got their start or was the last stepping stone possibly in Wilmington before moving up the Delaware River to the big time, to have a career in major market radio of Philly. I guess Hartford would have more of an alignment with Boston or maybe NYC as Hartford is about halfway between the two major markets.

You'd probably know the answer to this, if WPHT did take either Beck or Hannity on tape delay at 7pm, do they still pay the same huge amount they'd pay for the live daypart version? I guess my point was, if they do, why waste the money if those shows weren't producing financial results during the day when listenership is greatest. Why pay so much when less people and spot revenue is down for the same show at the later time slot?

As Wilmington's rush hour is pretty much over around 6pm, unless there's an accident on I-95 or I-495 or ice on the roads jamming everything up, I forgot that Philly's PM rush goes on far longer and yes, a PM drive time show would be better until the rush is over.

If they get it free, or barter, or for a song, then they might be able to at least break even.

I totally agree that a market of over 4 million people should be able to have at least two talkers, just as they have two sport talkers. I also believe that Philly should be able to support one full time Classical station and one full time Jazz station, plus the NPR news/ info formated WHYY-FM.

So I gather that you don't believe that Philly can recapture the glory days of talk radio they had back when WCAU and WWDB were in their prime forms? I agree, that's very sad.
 
I don't know the ins and outs of the syndication deals anymore, but if WPHT does indeed run either Beck or Hannity from 7-10PM it will be strictly for clearance and not in hopes of building an audience. In other words, to fulfill remaining contract time-- or (perhaps more likely) to keep another station from grabbing the show(s) and developing a solid competitor. I'd imagine no additional money would change hands. It's my understanding, Rush on the other hand, is not available to a station unless it's going to be cleared live in its entirety. WILM wouldn't have been able to run the show on that one-hour tape delay as it did in the early '90s under the current rules.

I am a huge fan of **good** political Talk Radio. Even though I frequently disagree with the viewpoints I hear, it's the personalities I enjoy listening to (since there aren't any personality jocks anymore, for the most part-- thanks, Radio). But I recognize I am the exception.

There are several things working against News/Talk here.

As mentioned earlier, we have no legacy station. Chris Stigall was nice to refer to 1210 as "the legendary WPHT" in a station press release, but the socks I'm wearing right now are a lot older than this station. The big Talk stations in large markets are usually heritage AMers that have been leaders for decades without interruption.

The dominance of KYW also doesn't help the cause. Most of these big Talk stations in other cities also double as the markets' News stations. In towns with both, the circumstances are often different. In Pittsburgh, KQV Newsradio has a bum signal, tiny promotions budget, and generally has been an also-ran to KDKA. (It actually reminds me a lot of what WILM was like up until a few years ago.) In Detroit, WWJ is strong-- but does not have the booming dominance of a KYW. And WJR has been the market leader for years. However, the successes of KFI Los Angeles and WABC New York show it can be done (big Talk numbers with News stations in town). But in both cases, the Talk and News stations are owned by competing companies. Here, as long as the only Talker is owned by CBS-- it'll always be hampered by an organization dumbing it down as to keep KYW unhurt. Just look at the pathetic "news" presence on WPHT. (There's one particular WPHT TOH anchor for Metro who really needs to be told reading one lone national headline before pausing to say, "1210 Sports..." does not make an hourly "newscast"-- but that's another story.) WPHT serves only as a poorly-audioed mechanism to hear Rush, Sinatra, and the Phillies. It is not a station that can be "relied" upon for anything (as the heritage N/T stations like WBZ, KDKA, WGN, WABC, WLW, etc.)

There aren't really any **masters** of Philadelphia Talk Radio left anymore. I'm talking about real born broadcasters-- not folks from other walks of life who for whatever reason were given the opportunity to "do radio" in their later years. Sometimes, these fellows work out. (Irv Homer, for example.) While Dom Giordano wasn't a "born broadcaster," he has admittedly worked extremely hard over the years to establish himself as a "born-again broadcaster." Now, he's as close as we have to a Philadelphia Talk Radio superstar. For about a year now, I've believed WPHT should have dumped Hannity and used Dom for afternoon drive. I don't like him as much in the nine-to-noon slot; he deserves prime time.

And the pile gets even thinner when one realizes there are few left who know how to do **conversation** Talk. I enjoy the politics, but there are other things that can make for very compelling radio. Since there are no "farm teams" anymore for up-and-coming hosts to sharpen their skills, nobody learns anything anymore. That's okay though, because there really aren't any jobs left in the big leagues for the most part.

What we lack in good News/Talk, we make up for with two shining Sports Talk stations-- in a radio sense. But for many hundreds-of-thousands of Talk Radio fans, it's pretty pathetic.

I do think a solution is on the way, but that's another story.
 
@George Brusstar, thanks for all the back ground info. I hadn't considered how KYW being Philly's really only news station plays into the talk radio issue. It will be interesting to see what the solution is. Philly's way too big a market to have only one talker and then that talker be a mediocre talk station. I can remember listing to Jack MacKinney's "Night Talk" years ago on WCAU. It was compelling radio, I couldn't turn the darn thing off and go to bed. Dominic Quinn and all the other great talkers who made Philly talk radio something to hear. It would be great if somehow Philly could reclaim that great heritage.

I get your point about talk personalities as I too miss the personality jocks of my youth. The music was good, but the jock was the icing on the cake so that your radio was not just a free juke box, but was entertaining. You made a connection with that jock. That, for me, is what separates Rush from the rest of the national talkers. He has a personality that is likable and he does have a sense of humor and a great sense of timing, probably due to his years as an "old style Top 40 jock".
 
George Brusstar said:
As mentioned earlier, we have no legacy station. Chris Stigall was nice to refer to 1210 as "the legendary WPHT" in a station press release, but the socks I'm wearing right now are a lot older than this station. The big Talk stations in large markets are usually heritage AMers that have been leaders for decades without interruption.

In Detroit, WWJ is strong-- but does not have the booming dominance of a KYW. And WJR has been the market leader for years.
Click to expand...

In Detroit, WJR has not been the market leader for several years. Both 'JR and 'J have signal parity within the Detroit SMA market (Wayne, Oakland and Macomb Counties). Outside of that area, 'JR boomed into outside markets in Michigan, Ohio and Indiana, as well as Ontario. 'J was limited to the tri-county area. Until the decline in AM radio listening overall, 'JR placed well in the ratings books in several other markets. Of course, WJR had a different - even unique - line-up of personalities. Now they are just another relay tower for Rush-Beck-Hannity and the rest.

Are there any "legacy" stations left - anywhere? I say it takes more than the date in the FCC files the license was first issued to make a legacy station. Or continuity of frequency and call letters. It means a set of personalities, and a sound and approach to the format that remain consistent (even though allowing for some turn-over and some evolutionary change). Probably the last true legacy talker was WGN - until current management decimated it. None of the so-called "legacy talkers" - WLW, KMOX, KGO, WCCO (and others) - have have much resemblance to what they were or sounded like 20 years ago.
 
Sometimes stations are the heritage or legacy stations and then go through a "season" of not living up to what they once were, but then after that "season" go and regain their old spot as news leader, heritage the station to go to, etc, of their glory days. Wilmington's WDEL would be a case in point. In the 1950's and 60's as an NBC radio affiliate, WDEL was Delaware's radio news leader, full service, the place to go for Delaware info, etc. Then in the 70's WDEL went into a slump and WILM became that news leader with the NBC NIS format which they continued after the demise of the NBC NIS network and became Delaware's news/talk station that was the place to go for Delaware info, etc. When CC bought WILM about 5 years ago and essentially gutted that station into a mostly satellite syndicated talker with a far less news presence, WDEL came to life again and is today Delaware's radio news leader, today they are a CBS radio affiliate, their ratings and local spots tell the story as WILM has faded into that slump and their ratings have dropped, other than maybe during Rush, and they essentially have few local spots and air a ton or PSA's. Even CC Delaware's low rated, 12+ numbers, sports talker WWTX 1290 The Ticket, appears to my ear when I listend, airs far more local spots than WILM. Both WILM and WDEL might be considered heritage stations for Wilmington and Delaware, and both have had important parts to play in Delaware radio, but at the moment, WDEL is the king of radio news as they've regained their former Heritage place.

So to bring this back to a Philly radio discussion. Philly has heritage stations too, from a full service point of view: WIP, WCAU/WPHT, WPEN, and KYW. All of these stations were the place to get Philly info as all at the height of their careers were top notched stations with solid news departments, etc. Of course, WIP after the Metromedia glory days has found a new life as a local sports talk station. WPEN, a former NBC radio affiliate, kept the torch going with oldies and big band formats as the station of the stars. Today a struggling ESPN radio affiliate. KYW has held strong with its all news brand for as long as I can remember. KYW has got to be one of the best rated AM stations in the nation. Where else do you see an AM station in the #1 or #2 spot in the 12+ numbers? So WIP and KYW seem to be doing just fine. So can WPEN or WPHT regain their former glory days of being a Heritage station for Philly? My guess is, 1210 WPHT has the best chance of that as their signal gets out so much better than 950 WPEN. WFIL and WIBG also have long Philly histories, became rock stations and went in a different direction so they aren't generally thought of as heritage stations, like a WIP or WCAU might have been. WFIL an WIBG/WNTP signals don't seem to get out as well as WPHT's or WIP's, so, MY GUESS, is they'll not really ever regain any of their former glory days.

One question I need to ask, as I don't live in Philly and in one aspect the Wilmington media scene is very different from Philly's. As the ONLY Wilmington TV newscast is a once a week news magazine, that is very well done, but very limited "First" airs on channel 12 vs Philly having 5 different TV stations airing plenty of Philly local news. Do people in Philly tune into KYW 1060 for news or for traffic/weather updates? My guess is, WILM and WDEL play a bigger role in Delaware since we have no real TV news coverage for Wilmington. That too might why explain how WDEL and WILM have survived as competing news/talkers here and Philly has only one real radio news station KYW. I believe Wilmington is an odd media market for a metro its size, not having any real local TV coverage other than a 30 minute show once a week. But that too, might explain why Philly radio heritage stations aren't doing more news wise as they've got to compete with 5 TV stations doing the same news. I believe KYW succeeds because Philly traffic is Philly traffic, making Wilmington traffic look like a joke, and KYW is very good at updating the traffic situation, which might account for their success today. So I guess I'm asking, has KYW become simply a great source for timely traffic/weather updates for the commuter or do Philadelphians actuall listen to KYW for local news?
 
"Legacy" and "heritage" are two cliches broadcasts like to abuse and overplay. But for either to be deserved or to mean anything, there has to be consistency. A station can't lose it and get it back. Change format. Change call letters. You reset the clock. KYW can claim the title because it has been doing pretty much the same thing with the same call letters and pretty much the same sound since 1964. So can WOR. WIP has been a sports station for about 24 years. WPEN for five. At one time both could have claimed to be "heritage" full service-MOR stations. Give WIP a little more time and they can claim to be a "heritage" sports talk station (next year it will be 25 years, which sounds like a good minimum standard).

"Legacy" and "heritage" takes time but also a long and consistent period of dominance of your format and a strongly-felt presence in the market. KYW has that (even though the presence is not a strongly-felt as it was and continues to slide downward). WDEL has not had their current "sound" long enough to qualify. WILM never had dominance and their current "sound" is recently acquired. Neither station gets enough cume to claim a strong local presence.

It helps to have a good signal; that's necessary but not sufficient.
 
I guess our definitions of legacy and heritage are different. For my way of thinking, a legacy or heritage station is one that has been there as one of the main stations in the area. WDEL is the KDKA for Wilmington. WDEL's been here since 1922, the first couple of years as WHAV 1120 then moved to 1150 with more power and the calls WDEL. They've been a top station for the state most of that time. Even during that slump period WDEL has been the place for Delaware radio news, during that slump time WILM did it better and did get decent ratings then. That's a legacy and heritage, in my opinion. WILM was Delaware's 2nd radio station started in 1930 by the same folks who then owned WDEL. Both stations were in the same building at Rodney Square at that time. Lower Delaware didn't have any radio other than WDEL and what Baltimore and Philly stations they could get back then. Both were the full service stations for this area. Until the FM's took over in the 1970's, these two AM's were the top two full service stations in Wilmington as WIP, WPEN, WCAU, KYW/WRCV were in Philly.

Just because a station changes with the times shouldn't eliminate it from being a heritage station. All radio stations have had to change their formats from time to time or go out of business as listener tastes change. WDEL used to have live music in their studios from local musicians and local talent literally tap dancing as a radio show in the 1930's. I know this, because my mom was one of the kids who got to tap dance on the radio at WDEL. Not many radio stations today air radio dramas, yet most did back in the 1930's and 40's. Both WDEL and WILM were like WIP back in the 60's as all three were full service MOR stations. Today no one plays MOR music. If they hadn't changed with the times they'd be gone completely. My point is, each market has stations that have been there serving their communities consistantly for 90+ years, in WDEL's case 89 years, WILM for 82 years. That's a long time of being a major news source for an area. Remember the only real sources of Wilmington news is the Wilmington News Journal, WDEL, and WILM. That's a real legacy for this particular market. People here who care about local radio news listen to either station, with WDEL getting the larger audience and spot revenue today. Granted the listeners have for the most part moved away from AM to FM, so their share of the pie has shrunk from either's glory days, just as the Philly heritage/legacy AM's have had happen to them too.

Even major market giants like WABC, WOR, WCBS, WFAN/WNBC all have changed over the years or they'd be gone, but I consider them to be NYC heritage/legacy stations, just like WIP, WPEN, WCAU/WPHT, KYW/WRCV in Philly.

So that might explain why we see it differently, but that's OK. Your definition is probably what most here would see as the correct answer. I just view it differently, so you might see both WDEL and WILM as being nothing of value, but as a Wilmingtonian, both have been important to this area, because when they've gone that will only leave the News Journal as the only real Wilmington news source. Kind of sad for a metro area of about 600,000 people.
 
@MFD: You're right. It's all about definitions. There is something to be said for a station having a long-standing FCC file. Still, I can't give the same standing to WPHT as to KYW. WPHT is not WCAU. WPHT reminds we of the old story of George Washington's ax. An antique dealer in Virginia on a buying trip comes across an old farmer who shows him an old, beaten and worn ax and claims it once belonged to George Washington. The dealer is ecstatic - until the farmer says, "Of course, it's had three new handles and four new heads since he owned it."

The New York stations should be...
WEAF/WRCA/WNBC/WFAN
WABC/WCBS
WJZ/WABC
Don't forget...
WHN/WMGM/WHN/WFAN/WUKQ/WEVD/WEPN
WNEW/WBBR

By your definition, almost any station - certainly any AM station - qualifies as "heritage" or "legacy". Yes, stations evolve and grow. But when basic and essential changes are not building on the past - not rooted in the station's heritage - they that station has become something new and different. That's not a bad thing. But station owners, right or wrongly, sometimes decide a station's past has become cumbersome baggage and they opt for a clean slate. that can be valid decision but they forfeit the "legacy" title.


Another definition: Is Wilmington a metro area or a suburb of Philadelphia (like Camden)? Based on the standard criteria the Census Bureau uses to define SMAs, Wilmington is part of the Philadelphia Metro area. But political influence often trumps standard criteria.
 
Is Camden a separate radio market? Wilmington is. Also the census bureau lists Wilmington as a metro area consisting of New Castle County, Salem County NJ, and Cecil County MD. So yes Wilmington is its own metro area, but yes, it is also lumped into the Philly metro area too, depending on how shallow the view they are taking. Scan back further the Delaware Valley or Tri State area, scan in closer, the Wilmington Metro, etc.

For TV they did drop the separate TV market for Wilmington many years ago as we really don't have any TV to call our own, so that's why Philly is a larger market for TV than Radio as Wilmington still is its own market.
 
MikefromDelaware said:
Is Camden a separate radio market? Wilmington is. Also the census bureau lists Wilmington as a metro area consisting of New Castle County, Salem County NJ, and Cecil County MD. So yes Wilmington is its own metro area, but yes, it is also lumped into the Philly metro area too, depending on how shallow the view they are taking. Scan back further the Delaware Valley or Tri State area, scan in closer, the Wilmington Metro, etc.

For TV they did drop the separate TV market for Wilmington many years ago as we really don't have any TV to call our own, so that's why Philly is a larger market for TV than Radio as Wilmington still is its own market.
Click to expand...

No Camden is not a separate market although it is in another. Wilmington only is a separate metro because of political pressure on the Census Bureau. By their standard statistical criteria, it should not be.
 
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