Technicality I know, but isn't this an illegal ID?

[purpledevil]

Scanning around the AM band last evening, I heard 1140 KYOK ID at 6:00 as 1140 KYOK-AMEN Conroe/Houston/Galveston. I didn't know the Amen suffix was legal on a TOH ID, or the mention of Galveston, considering that KYOK doesn't have a listenable signal that far south, for that matter. I know that back several years ago, broadcasters simulcasting AM/FM would state it as such, i.e. KRBE AM and FM Houston, and I understand that they are playing off of the AM band with the "Amen" slogan, but if I remember the ruling on this, what they are IDing the station as is illegal. Does the FCC even enforce this anymore? Or is the FCC only enforcing the "spirit of the rule"?

Call me petty....I've nothing better to do than notice this stuff. That's why I'm a radio geek. ;D

 

[FilioScotia]

I don't think it's illegal

All that's really required in a legal ID are the call letters and the city where the station is licensed. So if KYOK and Houston, or wherever, are there, it's legal, no matter what else they say around those words.

The "AMEN" is a clever play on the way the ID probably reads on the card. "This is KYOK AM in Conroe/Houston/Galveston."

My understanding of legal ID's says it's legal.

 

[radiotex-]

This isn't legal. There is nothing allowed between the calls and the COL. In fact for this AM not even the "AM" is allowed. The only way this station is allowed to ID is "KYOK Conroe". Period. They can add words before or after like Houston/Galveston. They could say "KYOK AMen is KYOK Conroe/Houston/Galveston". That would be fine.

If this is their only ID then they are in violation.

 

[jd]

Re: I don't think it's illegal

The "AMEN" is a clever play on the way the ID probably reads on the card. "This is KYOK AM in Conroe/Houston/Galveston."

My understanding of legal ID's says it's legal.

radiotex- is correct about the ID not being legal, since no AM station's call letters include the "-AM" suffix. But they can legally put the frequency or license holder name in between KYOK and Conroe, as described in Part 73.1201 of the FCC rules: "...the name of the licensee, the station’s frequency, the station’s channel number, as stated on the station’s license, and/or the station’s network affiliation may be inserted between the call letters and station location." As for FCC enforcement of ID rules, it's doubtful that anything would be done unless someone complained, but if Mr. Martin isn't aware that they're ID'ing his station with an "Amen," somebody needs to tell him.

 

[275Gravekeeper]

That isn't legal at all. He's in violation of his license. Only one station for which I've worked put the word "in" between the call letters and the city of license. Otherwise, those cutesy tricks are just absurd.

It's bad enough that many stations bury their legal IDs inside stingers or disclaimers.
("K-K-B-QpasadenaHOUSTON", written as it's said, for example). It is not illegal to add other cities in the service area. I believe one of the biggest offenders was at one time, WXRC, in the Charlotte, NC metro area. "WXRC-FM, (hickorynewtonconnover)**CHARLOTTE**... USA!". It's creative and puts a metro control city in the spotlight and makes a rimshot seem more urbanized, and imho, that's okay if it works for them.

What I also find absurd is that some companies or owners have tried to get away from the legal ID altogether, or so I have been told? Basically "they", whomever "they" are, had claimed a few years back that legal IDs were a product of a by-gone era of clear channel AMs where radio signals could be heard for thousands of miles. Pardon me. It only takes a few seconds to legally identify your station and city of license. My $.02.

 

[rageradio]

The "AMEN" is a clever play on the way the ID probably reads on the card. "This is KYOK AM in Conroe/Houston/Galveston."

My understanding of legal ID's says it's legal.

The legal ID is only supposed to have the AM suffix if there is an FM somewhere with the same calls and the ID is not to have anything between the calls and col such as KYOK IN Conroe... unless as noted above, the frequency or license holder name, and who does that? The correct ID should read KYOK Conroe. Anything can go before it and after and in this case the station chose to put Houston/Galveston after.

 

[txchipk]

The FCC seldom enforces it...think it has been years since they fined for incorrect IDs. In D/FW, KTVT 11 Fort Worth went a long period of time with no proper legal ID (all the IDs said "KTVT Dallas/Fort Worth") several years ago.

I think Clear Channel was the only one I remember using the licensee name between the calls and city of license ... growing up, WOAI 1200 San Antonio IDed on the hour as "WOAI Clear Channel Communications San Antonio"


Some of the better legal IDs I remember...

KEZR 106.5 San Jose CA: "Federal bureaucrats list this station as KEZR. San Jose calls us Mix 106.5" (may not have the exact words, but close to it. It's legal, although a pause occurs, on the air since "KEZR San Jose" is spoken together).

WGTZ 92.9 Eaton OH: "Z93 is WGTZ Eaton Dayton alive!" (followed by the sound of Godzilla or something roaring)

And one definitely not burying it, was WEZB 97.1 New Orleans from about 8-9 years ago which then had a rival in KUMX 104.1 Houma: "This ain't no radio station from Houma. This is today's best music licensed by the FCC to the greatest city on the planet. This is WEZB New Orleans, New Orleans' radio station B97.1"

 

[jd]

The legal ID is only supposed to have the AM suffix if there is an FM somewhere with the same calls [snip]

Sorry to nitpick on this, but if there's an FM that uses the same call letters, the AM still can't legally include "-AM" in the ID. After all these years the FCC still classifies AM's as "standard" broadcast stations and there is no "designator" as to which band they use.

Back in the days when KKBQ was a simulcast, their ID was "KKBQ Houston, KKBQ-FM Pasadena-Houston." And a small station in East Texas, KWRD 1470 Henderson, correctly identifies itself as KWRD with no "-AM" suffix, despite the fact that Salem owns an FM station in the Dallas area with the same set of call letters (KWRD-FM Highland Village). Clear Channel's oldies station in the Beaumont area, KCOL-FM, has to use the "-FM" suffix in a legal ID. KCOL is an AM in Colorado, but they don't ID as "KCOL-AM."

And to add to some of Chip's memories of great ID's, from a long time ago: "KRLD-AM...and KAFM, Dallas." Not legal. Or "Q-100, KSAQ...and KQAM San Antonio." Sounded good, too, and that one was legal...

 

[newschoolrocker]

I've heard KRBE as "KRBE (a cumulus station) Houston!".

also.. illegal.

 

[rageradio]

The last illegal id I heard was when 92.1 was switching to gospel. They went silent but would id every hour as KROI La Mera Mera Seabrook Houston. I have it on tape somewhere.

 

[CW]

This isn't legal. There is nothing allowed between the calls and the COL. In fact for this AM not even the "AM" is allowed. The only way this station is allowed to ID is "KYOK Conroe". Period. They can add words before or after like Houston/Galveston. They could say "KYOK AMen is KYOK Conroe/Houston/Galveston". That would be fine.

If this is their only ID then they are in violation.

AMEN to the AM suffix (sorry just couldnt resist! The AM suffix is NEVER given or legal on an AM station....the AMs are always licensed with no suffix...the FMs and TVs however CAN be....

 

[CW]

The "AMEN" is a clever play on the way the ID probably reads on the card. "This is KYOK AM in Conroe/Houston/Galveston."

My understanding of legal ID's says it's legal.

The legal ID is only supposed to have the AM suffix if there is an FM somewhere with the same calls and the ID is not to have anything between the calls and col such as KYOK IN Conroe... unless as noted above, the frequency or license holder name, and who does that? The correct ID should read KYOK Conroe. Anything can go before it and after and in this case the station chose to put Houston/Galveston after.

No! The AM would NEVER use AM suffix..THE FM would have the -FM suffix on its callsign...(like 790 and 92.5/92.9 did: KKBQ-FM Pasasena/Houston, KKBQ Houston, was a LEGAL ID for the FM and AM....NEVER did 790 ID as KKBQ AM..
sorry but the AMs are primary callsign holders and NEVER use a suffix

 

[CW]

That isn't legal at all. He's in violation of his license. Only one station for which I've worked put the word "in" between the call letters and the city of license. Otherwise, those cutesy tricks are just absurd.

It's bad enough that many stations bury their legal IDs inside stingers or disclaimers.
("K-K-B-QpasadenaHOUSTON", written as it's said, for example). It is not illegal to add other cities in the service area. I believe one of the biggest offenders was at one time, WXRC, in the Charlotte, NC metro area. "WXRC-FM, (hickorynewtonconnover)**CHARLOTTE**... USA!". It's creative and puts a metro control city in the spotlight and makes a rimshot seem more urbanized, and imho, that's okay if it works for them.

What I also find absurd is that some companies or owners have tried to get away from the legal ID altogether, or so I have been told? Basically "they", whomever "they" are, had claimed a few years back that legal IDs were a product of a by-gone era of clear channel AMs where radio signals could be heard for thousands of miles. Pardon me. It only takes a few seconds to legally identify your station and city of license. My $.02.

Since 92.9 is KKBQ-FM, saying "KKBQ pasadena HOUSTON" IS ILLEGAL...it must be "KKBQ FM Pasadena Houston" They CANNOT drop the FM suffix even though their AM is no longer KKBQ.

As long as they meet Part 73 rules by the letter (even if not within the spirit), they are legal. The thing that gets ME is when they slip the ID at :50 after INSTEAD of the Top Of the Hour where it is SUPPOSED to be...Now THATS not legal.

 

[rageradio]

Thats right! I just checked the FCC FM Query and it is "KKBQ-FM" and has been ever since 1983.

I remember the old KKBQ simulcast id from the 80s being KKBQ-FM Pasadena Houston, KKBQ Houston (have alot of them on tape).
It is the FM thats supposed to have the "-FM" suffix in the calls not the AM. My bad.

 

[stan]

As long as they meet Part 73 rules by the letter (even if not within the spirit), they are legal. The thing that gets ME is when they slip the ID at :50 after INSTEAD of the Top Of the Hour where it is SUPPOSED to be...Now THATS not legal.

Broadcasters have been playing fast and loose with the rules for some time. How close to the top of the hour is close enough? During my travels around the country I have heard the typical top of hour ID as far away as 20 minutes until the top of hour, and as others have stated, the call letters and COL are sometimes buried between two commercials where if you're not listening carefully you won't even hear them.

 

[C414B]

That isn't legal at all. He's in violation of his license. Only one station for which I've worked put the word "in" between the call letters and the city of license. Otherwise, those cutesy tricks are just absurd.

It's bad enough that many stations bury their legal IDs inside stingers or disclaimers.
("K-K-B-QpasadenaHOUSTON", written as it's said, for example). It is not illegal to add other cities in the service area. I believe one of the biggest offenders was at one time, WXRC, in the Charlotte, NC metro area. "WXRC-FM, (hickorynewtonconnover)**CHARLOTTE**... USA!". It's creative and puts a metro control city in the spotlight and makes a rimshot seem more urbanized, and imho, that's okay if it works for them.

What I also find absurd is that some companies or owners have tried to get away from the legal ID altogether, or so I have been told? Basically "they", whomever "they" are, had claimed a few years back that legal IDs were a product of a by-gone era of clear channel AMs where radio signals could be heard for thousands of miles. Pardon me. It only takes a few seconds to legally identify your station and city of license. My $.02.

Since 92.9 is KKBQ-FM, saying "KKBQ pasadena HOUSTON" IS ILLEGAL...it must be "KKBQ FM Pasadena Houston" They CANNOT drop the FM suffix even though their AM is no longer KKBQ.

As long as they meet Part 73 rules by the letter (even if not within the spirit), they are legal. The thing that gets ME is when they slip the ID at :50 after INSTEAD of the Top Of the Hour where it is SUPPOSED to be...Now THATS not legal.

I'm not looking for a firefight, so please forgive me if it sounds like I am.

I am thinking that somewhere along the way that the rules stated that the legal ID had to be aired between :50 and :10 but the closest natural break in programming to the top of the hour. How far off base am I?

 

[jd]

I am thinking that somewhere along the way that the rules stated that the legal ID had to be aired between :50 and :10 but the closest natural break in programming to the top of the hour. How far off base am I?

Actually there haven't been any really significant changes to the rule for many years. It doesn't mention anything about specific times, although broadcasters have put their own twist on it from plus or minus two minutes to ten minutes either way.

(a) When regularly required. Broadcast station identification announcements
shall be made:

(1) At the beginning and ending of each time of operation, and

(2) Hourly, as close to the hour as feasible, at a natural break in program
offerings.

It's about the terms close, feasible and natural, so for most stations anything close to the top of the hour is "close enough." Since enforcing station ID rules apparently isn't a top priority with the FCC, they're probably right.

 

[stan]

I am thinking that somewhere along the way that the rules stated that the legal ID had to be aired between :50 and :10 but the closest natural break in programming to the top of the hour. How far off base am I?

You are correct, as stated in the FCC rules at

http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2422/13nov20061500/edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2006/octqtr/47cfr73.1201.htm