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Telephone hybrids comparision
- Thread starter dtube1
- Start date
The newer Comrex hybrids are a far cry better than the old Gentner stuff. I was supprised how much better the new unit I put in a year ago at a station sounded compared to the old crap. I still prefer Telos, but the Comrex stuff is ok now.
They pretty much all work. The Telos is the gol dstandard... it will null anything from a tin can on a string on up. church & Co have been making them foir a long time, and they've made a LOT of them. You'd have to gain a fair amount of know how behind that record.
This is a really old thread but I stumbled upon it by googling and since a lot of people do that, I thought I might chip in and give my opinion on this. Might help someone in the future. I've worked in radio for many years, not always professionally but radio nonetheless. I've used a lot of hybrids and some have sounded awesome, some like crap. Here's what I've learned as far as hybrids and how they can be improved.
Digital hybrids are better than analog. But analog can sound really good. You just need to set 'em up properly. Sidetone needs to be minimal and you must use mix minus of course.
- Always use a bandpass filter. Either a simple filter or an eq, and take down everything below 200 or so Hz and everything above 3,5k or thereabouts. That'll remove a lot of hiss.
- Always use a limiter. Set it to -6 or so and let it catch the peaks. Phone audio can sound quite peaky and nasty sometimes and the limiter eliminatess the risk of overshooting and just gives you a much more even sound.
- Use a noise gate if you can. Set it up by ear so it removes noise without affecting speech in a negative way.
- Use an AGC of some kind. Makes for much more symmetrical waveforms and a lot better intelligibility.
- Use an exciter like the Aphex or the BBE, screw the high control and focus on the lo contour/big bottom. Can improve sound quite a bit if done right.
So there's a few processing options for phone audio. You don't need them all but they all work to some extent. If you have a hybrid with DSP built in, you might not need all the above mentioned in the form of rack units. Myself, I try to minimize the number of rack units I buy... for financial reasons as well as space-related reasons.
My setup:
My personal caller setup right now, is a Sonifex HY-3 hybrid. This unit has built in noise gating and bandpass so that's taken care out straight out of the box. Sonifex is a british maker of pro broadcasting gear. They're not cheap but 100% pro, always. After the Sonifex I run the signal through a Symetrix 422 agc leveler/limiter that limits and evens out the signal and basically makes it more symmetrical and even sounding. Great unit and it's in stereo so I can buy a second hybrid if I want and not have to throw my other rack gear away. There is a mono version too though, called 421m or something like that. Both are now discontinued but can be found cheap on the used market. After the 422, the signal goes into an Aphex 204 with some big bottom turned up to add a bit of meat to the sound. Sound is amazing. No hiss, smooth and round sound but still clear, no distortion... Sounds better than 9 out of 10 FM stations. And I'm a podcaster.
Digital hybrids are better than analog. But analog can sound really good. You just need to set 'em up properly. Sidetone needs to be minimal and you must use mix minus of course.
- Always use a bandpass filter. Either a simple filter or an eq, and take down everything below 200 or so Hz and everything above 3,5k or thereabouts. That'll remove a lot of hiss.
- Always use a limiter. Set it to -6 or so and let it catch the peaks. Phone audio can sound quite peaky and nasty sometimes and the limiter eliminatess the risk of overshooting and just gives you a much more even sound.
- Use a noise gate if you can. Set it up by ear so it removes noise without affecting speech in a negative way.
- Use an AGC of some kind. Makes for much more symmetrical waveforms and a lot better intelligibility.
- Use an exciter like the Aphex or the BBE, screw the high control and focus on the lo contour/big bottom. Can improve sound quite a bit if done right.
So there's a few processing options for phone audio. You don't need them all but they all work to some extent. If you have a hybrid with DSP built in, you might not need all the above mentioned in the form of rack units. Myself, I try to minimize the number of rack units I buy... for financial reasons as well as space-related reasons.
My setup:
My personal caller setup right now, is a Sonifex HY-3 hybrid. This unit has built in noise gating and bandpass so that's taken care out straight out of the box. Sonifex is a british maker of pro broadcasting gear. They're not cheap but 100% pro, always. After the Sonifex I run the signal through a Symetrix 422 agc leveler/limiter that limits and evens out the signal and basically makes it more symmetrical and even sounding. Great unit and it's in stereo so I can buy a second hybrid if I want and not have to throw my other rack gear away. There is a mono version too though, called 421m or something like that. Both are now discontinued but can be found cheap on the used market. After the 422, the signal goes into an Aphex 204 with some big bottom turned up to add a bit of meat to the sound. Sound is amazing. No hiss, smooth and round sound but still clear, no distortion... Sounds better than 9 out of 10 FM stations. And I'm a podcaster.
Just about all the rack gear you mentioned is already built in a little Telos One, except the Aphex AE for pumping up some bottom end. The phone calls on the Sean Hannity show sound really good. I think they have something in there pumping up the bottom end too. I even have some old Gentner line switch boxes interfaced with Telos Ones. Works even better than the Gentner Digital Hybrids did!
No,because you need to be able to send the "mix," i.e. your local mike and whatever else you want to send to the caller, "minus" the audio incoming from the hybrid.
Usually with an older console you would feed audition into the hybrid, and use a hybrid that has an output that combines the telephone audio with the send audio for a return feed into the program bus of the console. Such as some of the older Gentner hybrids, e.g., the SP3 or the digital models. Then both your mike audio and the incoming phone audio show up on the same pot--usually requires some gain riding to get a good recording.
The add-on boxes, such as the one from Henry, could be used for this as well.
Another method is to pick up the output of the mike preamp and feed it into the send input of the hybrid. A buffer amplifier might be needed, especially where the mike preamp output is unbalanced, in order to keep hum and noise out of the console. (You've got the manufacture of those little TLO72 unbalanced to balanced amps down to science yet?). This would allow you to operate with the mike on program along with the hybrid output, since only the mike would be fed into the phone line. In this configuration, would be wise to put a switch or relay in somewhere to allow you to easily kill the mike feed into the hybrid.
Usually with an older console you would feed audition into the hybrid, and use a hybrid that has an output that combines the telephone audio with the send audio for a return feed into the program bus of the console. Such as some of the older Gentner hybrids, e.g., the SP3 or the digital models. Then both your mike audio and the incoming phone audio show up on the same pot--usually requires some gain riding to get a good recording.
The add-on boxes, such as the one from Henry, could be used for this as well.
Another method is to pick up the output of the mike preamp and feed it into the send input of the hybrid. A buffer amplifier might be needed, especially where the mike preamp output is unbalanced, in order to keep hum and noise out of the console. (You've got the manufacture of those little TLO72 unbalanced to balanced amps down to science yet?). This would allow you to operate with the mike on program along with the hybrid output, since only the mike would be fed into the phone line. In this configuration, would be wise to put a switch or relay in somewhere to allow you to easily kill the mike feed into the hybrid.
R
RolfTaylor
Guest
Tom is right that those are the best approaches.
If you don't want to go that route the Comrex DH-20 (not sure about the DH-30) does have the "auto mix minus" feature you are asking about. However, the reality is that such a feature is of limited utility since you cannot change the gain of the mic or hybrid during a call or you will lose null temporarily.
It can be used this way, but often the limitations will cause a renewed search to do it properly with a true mix minus.
Happy New Year to all.
If you don't want to go that route the Comrex DH-20 (not sure about the DH-30) does have the "auto mix minus" feature you are asking about. However, the reality is that such a feature is of limited utility since you cannot change the gain of the mic or hybrid during a call or you will lose null temporarily.
It can be used this way, but often the limitations will cause a renewed search to do it properly with a true mix minus.
Happy New Year to all.
listner1 said:
That's probably true, shame the callers are all crazy though. :-\ As far as Telos, at the time I was unable to find them for a decent price in Europe, which is where I'm located. I'm sure they are good units though, but so is my Sonifex. I was amazed at how much better it was than the old analog units I've been using in the past. D&R, Eelas etc.
G
Groove1670
Guest
Anybody using a Gentner SPH-5
Hey TomT-
I read this paragraph, and I'm trying tho figure out the benefit of this arrangement other than recording off just one channel. Am I missing something? Thanks!
Usually with an older console you would feed audition into the hybrid, and use a hybrid that has an output that combines the telephone audio with the send audio for a return feed into the program bus of the console. Such as some of the older Gentner hybrids, e.g., the SP3 or the digital models. Then both your mike audio and the incoming phone audio show up on the same pot--usually requires some gain riding to get a good recording.
I read this paragraph, and I'm trying tho figure out the benefit of this arrangement other than recording off just one channel. Am I missing something? Thanks!
Usually with an older console you would feed audition into the hybrid, and use a hybrid that has an output that combines the telephone audio with the send audio for a return feed into the program bus of the console. Such as some of the older Gentner hybrids, e.g., the SP3 or the digital models. Then both your mike audio and the incoming phone audio show up on the same pot--usually requires some gain riding to get a good recording.
Well, the original question concerned an old, old console such as an old Gates console, or the venerable Autogram IC series. We are used to more modern consoles where you can feed sources to, for example, audition and program at the same time--which then makes it easy to use audition for the mix minus feed into the hybrid while allowing mikes, etc. to be mixed with the hybrid output on program.
Obviously, on the old style consoles where a mike, (for example), can be on either program or audition (but not both) you have to go through some gymnastics to work with the hybrid. Think about it--if you FED program into the hybrid and then brought the hybrid output up on program...screech!
Now, as suggested, one alternative that could be used (with these older consoles) was to pull out a feed from the output of the mike preamp to feed the hybrid. This had several disadvantages--usually the level was fairly low, and unbalanced, requiring a booster/isolation amp. Also, unless you used some kind of sub-mixer, wasn't all that practical to feed more than one mike down the line. However, for the typical DJ set-up this worked well (once you got the levels straightened out) since the board op could flip his mike on program like normal and just pot up the hybrid output as needed.
Obviously, on the old style consoles where a mike, (for example), can be on either program or audition (but not both) you have to go through some gymnastics to work with the hybrid. Think about it--if you FED program into the hybrid and then brought the hybrid output up on program...screech!
Now, as suggested, one alternative that could be used (with these older consoles) was to pull out a feed from the output of the mike preamp to feed the hybrid. This had several disadvantages--usually the level was fairly low, and unbalanced, requiring a booster/isolation amp. Also, unless you used some kind of sub-mixer, wasn't all that practical to feed more than one mike down the line. However, for the typical DJ set-up this worked well (once you got the levels straightened out) since the board op could flip his mike on program like normal and just pot up the hybrid output as needed.
petsy said:
I wouldn't sweat the snipes. I've used the 422 in PA systems and they've worked well.
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