Since Doo Wop is most often associated with either the East/West coast and some Midwest states, Texas has a rich history in regards to Doo Wop. So on the Doo Wop Vault i'm shining the spotlight on Doo Wop from the Lonestar state. Since terrestrial radio won't play them, the Doo Wop Vault will. Log onto www.doowopvault1950s.podomatic.com and click the WKVA GOLD HITS 920AM show.
-
Get involved.
We want your input!
Apply for Membership and join the conversations about everything related to broadcasting.
After we receive your registration, a moderator will review it. After your registration is approved, you will be permitted to post.
If you use a disposable or false email address, your registration will be rejected.
After your membership is approved, please take a minute to tell us a little bit about yourself.
https://www.radiodiscussions.com/forums/introduce-yourself.1088/
Thanks in advance and have fun!
RadioDiscussions Administrators
TEXAS CONTRIBUTION TO DOO WOP
- Thread starter doowopvault
- Start date
J
johnsummers
Guest
Terrestrial radio CAN'T play that stuff and still attract the desired, saleable demographics. As host of a pretty successful Doo-Wop show, which aired on a very big terrestrial radio station for over 5 years ('97-'02), I can tell you that it was a labor of love. However, if you're trying to get a 45 year old female to listen, playing Virgil Johnson and the Velvets ot the Original Casuals won't get you there. Sad, but, oh so true. We even kept our Doo-Wop show on for a year AFTER WCBS-FM axed the Don K. Reid Doo-Wop Shop!! And, that's New York, thee center of the Doo-Wop world! So, it's not a question of 'won't, but, rather, 'CAN'T'. That's a great use for the internet, though.
Here we go again, first off, the show is on a terrestrial station, I use the podcast for the shows archives. Second, I will not debate this again and again. I can respond to prove your position is wrong, but what is the point. I have listeners of all ages, it isn't that they can't, it's that the corporate labels won't let them. They need the stations to play the artists that they have a ton of money invested in.Let's also not forget the payola from the labels to the corporate owned stations that was uncovered about 5 years ago. That's all i'll say about this.
doowopvault said:
We've been through this before on another part of this discussion board. Your show is on an AM that is part of a cluster with two FMs that sustain it... in a very small unrated market and which covers a bit over 30 thousand people with its 5 mV/m signal.
Small market unrated stations can sometimes sustain programming and shows that would die in larger markets where stations have to prove to advertisers that a significant, desirable audience is available.
That would be, probably, because you keep losing the argument. John is correct: doo wop does not attract many listeners, and those that it does get are not in desirable age groups.
Labels, corporate or independent, have always focused on current music. Doo wop is not current music. It does not sell much, because the music's partisans, for the most part, are outside the age that buys recorded music.
Current hits will get millions of downloads. The artists will do videos, and tour. With most labels having a 360° model today, it's the combination of all the revenue streams that makes music profitable.
Remember that the case you are citing was brought by the man who was disgraced and who did not remain as Attorney General in New York. The suit was gratuitous (although the legal practices it highlighted are better put to rest), and the entities involved preferred to negotiate a settlement instead of spending years and more millions litigating.
Today, labels want stations to pay to play the songs. You are beating a very dead horse here.
And I am eternally grateful, if still rather skeptical. :
David...instead of going back and forth with you bandying about the same old crap which, by the way,holds no water, and is a position that not only makes excuses for the behavior of the very corporations who destroyed radio, but also fails to mention the FCC whom is responsible for deregulation, which is part of the reason why radio not only smells bad but sounds bad too. If you want to read the truth people....try this.............
http://www.tragic96.com/brethren.htm
http://spectator.org/archives/2012/07/20/who-killed-rock-radio
http://www.walkerpub.com/radio_consultants.html
All of these articles saves me a lot of time going back and forth and proves how uninformed you are, or are you? is there a reason you are on here purposely spreading lies or are you really that uninformed.
http://www.tragic96.com/brethren.htm
http://spectator.org/archives/2012/07/20/who-killed-rock-radio
http://www.walkerpub.com/radio_consultants.html
All of these articles saves me a lot of time going back and forth and proves how uninformed you are, or are you? is there a reason you are on here purposely spreading lies or are you really that uninformed.
doowopvault said:
Whoa. What a load of misinformation.
Start with the one about B-97 in New Orleans. The writer mentions that everything went wrong in the 80's when companies were allowed to have more than one station per market. Actually, since the 40's one could have an AM, an FM and a TV per market and the national cap was 21... 7 of each kind. Owning more than 2 radio stations per market did not change until the early 90's.
And WEZB is still CHR... and is in the top 8 billers in the market.
And going back to the 30's single companies had owned multiple stations in different markets...
As to the other point in that diatribe, the one about consultants, keep in mind that everyone... everyone... uses consultants. If you have a significant illness, your regular doctor sends you to a consultant, called a "specialist." If your taxes are more than just a simple 1040-EZ filing, you hire a consultant, called an accountant or a tax preparer. And so on.
In radio, contrary to the writing you linked to, consultants started being used in the 7/7/7 days when operators could not often afford to have the best programmers on staff, so when they had competitive challenges or other issues, they called a consultant... a specialist in a specific format, research, marketing or similar.
Oh, and the rant about music tests. Crap. Unmitigated, unadulterated crap. Heaven forbid a station would ask its listeners what they want to hear ans what they do not want to hear! OMG, I thought it was all magic, maybe even divine. But no, how dare those stations talk to listeners and then give them what they want!
Then there is the article that talks about big corporations that changed "successful" rock stations. All those stations changed because they could no longer sustain operations within the format and they had to find something else to do.
Specifically, they mention Indie in LA; Indie had gone down to below a 1 share in audience, and the owner, a small Hispanic owned group was no longer comfortable with it and changed it. No conspiracy, no black helicopters, no "corporate" agenda.
All of these articles saves me a lot of time going back and forth and proves how uninformed you are, or are you? is there a reason you are on here purposely spreading lies or are you really that uninformed.
Whoa again. First, it's your conclusion, supported by a bunch of Internet rants filled with inaccuracies, misstatements and lies, that having one company own more than a single station in a market is what is "wrong" with radio today.
The fact is, many of radio's problems today are due to the economy which has, inflation-adjusted, reduced radio's revenues by nearly 40% in the last 6 years. Add in the effects of new media, the FCC's overpopulation of the band and a number of other things and you have a total change in the nature of radio.
Oh, and get your basic facts straight... the 1996 deregulation was accomplished by the Telecommunications Act, an act of Congress signed by Pres. Clinton.
DavidEduardo said:
What are you talking about!!! All you are doing is repeating what the writer talked about, so...you are agreeing lol lol.
As for your comment "during the 1930's companies had owned mutiple stations in different markets" lol
http://american-business.org/2478-federal-communications-commission-fcc.html
As far as the morons called "consultants" these people know nothing about radio, nothing about music,never worked behind a Mic and the same goes for the corporate know nothing fools who own multiple stations. So what you have are know nothings giving advice to know nothings, the blind leading the blind. lol
These morons come in from out of town, having never ever even talked to one person from that city, but he is viewed as the authority, knowing what the people want to hear in that city lol lol are you for real?
These fools "consultants" get a couple dozen people in a room and ask them questions, this is called a "music test"....and this is what programing is based on for an entire market? for each and ever market across the country? lol lol
The sad part is, these consultant know nothing morons run each and every one of their stations alike in every market.
The entire business is run by investors who don't give a rats ass about radio or the community the station is located in.
Another little piece of info to shoot your theory down in flames http://www.salon.com/2001/03/14/payola_2/
Guys, let it be. Neither of you is going to convince the other person to change his mind.
R
R
J
johnsummers
Guest
David, thank you for trying!
Okay, Doo Wop. I'll bite from a GM perspective...
What sort of numbers can you bring to the table? Forget demos, I'm talking listener numbers. Everyone spends cash. We live in a cash society.
What advertisers do you bring to the table?
The bottom line on most stations is what can you bill? Are you the new flavor of cash cow? I know bringing everything to dollars and cents is rather repulsive but running a radio station is all about dollars to pay the bills and the humans that make it all happen. At least in radio, we get to enjoy making those dollars by serving the public and having fun...few businesses models allow that.
Sure, ratings are significant in major markets. Do you have the numbers that can at least catch the eye of the media buyer?
Aside from these factors, little else matters. Certainly when income allows, it is a sweet feeling to serve an underserved segment of the audience.
How many Doo Wop shows are being done in American radio now? What markets are you in and what dayparts? Do you barter or purchase time or are you hired specifically to do the program?
What sort of numbers can you bring to the table? Forget demos, I'm talking listener numbers. Everyone spends cash. We live in a cash society.
What advertisers do you bring to the table?
The bottom line on most stations is what can you bill? Are you the new flavor of cash cow? I know bringing everything to dollars and cents is rather repulsive but running a radio station is all about dollars to pay the bills and the humans that make it all happen. At least in radio, we get to enjoy making those dollars by serving the public and having fun...few businesses models allow that.
Sure, ratings are significant in major markets. Do you have the numbers that can at least catch the eye of the media buyer?
Aside from these factors, little else matters. Certainly when income allows, it is a sweet feeling to serve an underserved segment of the audience.
How many Doo Wop shows are being done in American radio now? What markets are you in and what dayparts? Do you barter or purchase time or are you hired specifically to do the program?
doowopvault said:
I am not agreeing with any of the three articles you linked. I pointed out, in each cases, one or two of the fundamental errors. Errors which invalidate the premise, and thus, the argument.
Stations change format not due to a management hatred of a specific type of music or format but because the owner feels that it will be to their advantage to do something else with the station.
I am not sure about what specific part of that article you want me to be "illuminated" by, but the fact is that even in the Pre-W.W. II years there were many companies, starting with CBS and NBC and Westinghouse, that owned multiple stations located in different cities in the US. By the end of W.W. II, there were over 30 companies with multiple stations, ranging from the Don Lee group in the west to the Steinman stations in PA and from General Tire to Fort Industries (Storer) and from McClatchey to Hearst to Gannett.
See page 198 in this extract from the Broadcasting Yearbook from 1945.
http://www.americanradiohistory.com/Archive-BC-YB/1945/101-200 Broadcasting Yearbook 1945-2.pdf
By the early 60's, there were several dozen operators of multiple stations that were even traded on the public stock exchanges... check any issue of Broadcasting Magazine from the period for their stock index.
While the FCC did break up the NBC operation of two national networks, the surviving "twins" each owned major stations in top markets... and remember, when that happened there were fewer than 1000 radio stations in the whole US, FM was on 47 mHz, and there was no non-experimental TV, while today there are 15,000 radio stations, thousands of TV stations, and 80% or more of the population has cable or satellite... plus Internet. You can't compare 1940 with 2013.
So people like Rick Sklar, Bill Drake, Lee Abrams, Kent Burkhardt, Ron Jacobs, George Burns, and Marlin Taylor knew nothing about radio and had no knowledge of how to play the music listeners desired to hear?
(I purposely selected consultants from the 60's and 70's just to illustrate that the good consultants... and there are, like anywhere, good and bad ones... go back half a century and overall have been responsible for some of the greatest innovations in radio {which is why they became consultants})
You believe this because a couple of retired or bitter people blogged it. Well, hot darn, it just gotta' be true!
You have no idea how a programming consultant works, do you? Have you even ever met one or chatted with one?
I thought not...
(Actually, you are chatting with one now, so in a sense you have "engaged" with a consultant, albeit in a less than cordial meeting in which instead of saying "howdy" you proceeded to hurl brickbats.)
That is not how a music test is done. Try this for an illustrated example of how a scientific, representative sample of the audience scores hundreds of songs based on their desire to hear them on the radio.
http://www.americanradiohistory.com/research_AMT.htm
Oh, and it is not the consultant that does a music test... it is a professional research company.
Let's go back to that network radio and TV show that ran from 1935 to 1959, "Your Hit Parade". The reason the show lasted for a quarter of a decade was that, across America, the big hits are hits in Spokane and Savannah, Raleigh and Reno, Bangor and Bakersfield. So performing those big songs guaranteed audience everywhere. Same goes for radio. The real AC hits are hits in all markets... the real urban hits transcend market borders... even Regional Mexican hits are about the same in every market with a big Hispanic population from Mexico.
So why do stations sound similar everywhere? Because America has consensus tastes in mainstream music... just as they have consensus tastes in what the big TV shows are, too. That is why you see Idol and Survivor and NCIS and Vampire Diaries all across the US.
I built my first station in 1964. I took my savings and earnings from the five years prior, and invested in a new station. I did it for love of radio, but also because I thought I could make a profit for my investment... just like thousands of other owners of commercial radio stations in the US, now and in the past. Owners are all also investors who put their money at risk to "do radio" and hopefully make something in return.
DavidEduardo said:
By the way, what became of Marlin Taylor? I had heard, thirdhand, that after he left Bonneville and broadcasting that he totally changed career direction, leaving the business entirely. And there was another Bonneville fellow (perhaps also based in Tenafly, Frank something-or-other?) who later went to CBS Sports. The memories are fading for so I'm hoping you can help me fill in the gaps.
Bob E. Nelson said:
Like you, I lost track of Marlin. I never knew him personally, as I was an indirect competitor and when the Bonneville syndication era ended, I did not hear about him for a long time. However, I recently learned he was doing the Sirius XM Escape channel 69 service:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Escape_(Sirius_XM)
The other name I remember from the WRFM Bonnefille days is Phil Stout, who was one of the best Beautiful Music programmers.
David,
You're right, though I wish you were wrong.
First, in keeping with the spirit of this thread, I share DooWopVault's love of DooWop music, and in particular its two top Texas legends (IMO), Bill Haley and Buddy Holly. My wife and I catch every encore presentation of PBS's DooWop fundraiser shows. My love for DooWop dates back to the early '60s, when my aunt, mom's much younger sister who played the role of the 'older" sister I never had, gave me hand-me-down DooWop 33-RPMs, one of which was the legandary Murray The K's "Music for Submarine Race Watchers".
Next, to address the contention between you two: I grieve for the simpler, more fun days of radio, when ratings leaders engineered their successes with creativity. I miss my own days working in Mom & Pop radio. I too used to stab the fork of blame in the heart of deregulation, but my focus predated Bill Clinton; I cited the earlier easing of the reins under Ronald Reagan, whom I otherwise admired. But, thanks largely to my almost 2-year membership on R/D, my horizon of information has expanded. From posts such as yours, BIG A's and GoatRodeoCowboy's, I've learned too about the evolving realities of today's radio markets, especially the urban ones, and how these changes have served an even greater role in changing radio than deregulation.
Being laid up on short term disability again has provided me time to explore a myriad of interesting R/D threads. In one, a poster recently spilled his heart out. He had had enough of ratings & PPMs, and had decided to give small market radio one more try. He was hoping to find work at a Mom & Pop type-station. I wished him luck. I wonder if you saw that thread, and how you might rate his prospects. The health issues sidelining me are orthopedic in nature and quite minor, but speak volumes about my chances for continuing my present, "physical" line of work. I wonder about my own chances of returning home to small market radio. What do you think?
You're right, though I wish you were wrong.
First, in keeping with the spirit of this thread, I share DooWopVault's love of DooWop music, and in particular its two top Texas legends (IMO), Bill Haley and Buddy Holly. My wife and I catch every encore presentation of PBS's DooWop fundraiser shows. My love for DooWop dates back to the early '60s, when my aunt, mom's much younger sister who played the role of the 'older" sister I never had, gave me hand-me-down DooWop 33-RPMs, one of which was the legandary Murray The K's "Music for Submarine Race Watchers".
Next, to address the contention between you two: I grieve for the simpler, more fun days of radio, when ratings leaders engineered their successes with creativity. I miss my own days working in Mom & Pop radio. I too used to stab the fork of blame in the heart of deregulation, but my focus predated Bill Clinton; I cited the earlier easing of the reins under Ronald Reagan, whom I otherwise admired. But, thanks largely to my almost 2-year membership on R/D, my horizon of information has expanded. From posts such as yours, BIG A's and GoatRodeoCowboy's, I've learned too about the evolving realities of today's radio markets, especially the urban ones, and how these changes have served an even greater role in changing radio than deregulation.
Being laid up on short term disability again has provided me time to explore a myriad of interesting R/D threads. In one, a poster recently spilled his heart out. He had had enough of ratings & PPMs, and had decided to give small market radio one more try. He was hoping to find work at a Mom & Pop type-station. I wished him luck. I wonder if you saw that thread, and how you might rate his prospects. The health issues sidelining me are orthopedic in nature and quite minor, but speak volumes about my chances for continuing my present, "physical" line of work. I wonder about my own chances of returning home to small market radio. What do you think?
jfrancispastirchak said:
Interestingly, there is a thread on the 50's / 60's Oldies board about what doo wop is and is not. By their strict standards, I think Buddy Holly and Bill Haley might not be considered doo wop.
I'm also a "bought it when it was a current" admirer of Buddy Holly, and have all the mp3's that I liked. But I find that my interest in 50's and 60's has considerably waned, while I am finding a lot of current music to my liking. I wonder how many others there are who are in the age that remembers doo wop, but have moved on?
I have worked for owners ranging from myself to corporations to mom & pops. All had pros and cons.
One "mom and pop" was given to arbitrary and capricious decisions and I classify that as my worst experience ever. That was followed by one corporate owner who required forms to get more bathroom paper and supplies, and then did not send them for 3 or 4 months; the rest of the operation was as silly.
Another corporate owner allowed me control of a Top 15 market station to the extent I could even change the format if I wanted... and did. And a later family owner treated my like one of them, right down to vacationing with them.
But overall, the corporate owners were the ones that gave insurance, 401-k plans and other benefits. And that's partly why I could retire now if I wished to.
Small market stations come with a variety of qualities. There are a few that are really true community stations, with worthwhile jobs. But so many have been crowded into a subsistence level by all the move ins and new stations, thanks to Docket 80-90. The end result is 25 satellite, automated stations for every one that has some live staff or some local news. That means slim pickings, and low wages.
OTOH, folks with multiple skills, who can announce, do production, sell, supervise, do a remote, and a few hundred other things may be in a great position to get those few jobs, since there are so few generalists left any more.
johnsummers said:
Doo wop, even among oldies fans, is hit or miss. Many people love the early rock & roll sounds of Buddy Holly, Little Richard, Chuck Berry, etc, but doo wop is like nails on a chalkboard for them. I'm young (25) and love doo wop - but even I realize it's niche, not mass appeal (aside from the biggies like "Why Do Fools Fall In Love" and "Blue Moon"). One of my former co-workers loved oldies, but just couldn't stand doo wop.
Mazel for keeping it around on a commercial station for so long. Only classic hits station I know that still has one is WOGL in Philly, and who knows for how much longer...
I was hesitant to get into the stupidity of this thread but, I wanted to give a definition of what doo wop really is. First of all, doo wop is not even the accurate term. The accurate terms are either group records or group harmony records. A real group record is usually either four or five part harmony. Most group records are all male even though the Chantels and Tuneweavers are two exceptions. Under this definition, the Platters are not even a group harmony group because they sung in unison and not in harmony. The first group era started in the early 50s with songs like Crying In The Chapel by the Orioles. There was a group record resurgence that lasted from 1960-63. The Earls made a 1964 group record called I Believe which was about the end for group records unless you count I Do by the Marvelows. The Crests reformed as the Brooklyn Bridge and made a few very late group records in 1968-69 such as Worst That Could Happen, Welcome Me Love and Blessed Is The Rain. May I by Bill Deal And The Rhondels was a big New York hit in 1969 because it sounded like a group record but, it wasn't. It was a Carolina beach record.
The median age for fans of group records is ten years older than the fans of regular 1955-1971 oldies. Most group harmony fans think music ended with the English Invasion in 1964. The average age of a typical group harmony fan today is about 70. There used to be a great market for selling rare group records that commanded a lot of money. That market is gone now because most of those collectors either sold their collections or are dead.
I did a group harmony show on a 50,000 watt full time station with a huge night signal. I love group records but, group harmony music today has little validity to anyone who doesn't drink prune juice regularly.
WMTR, Morristown, N. J., does a live group show every night but, as a suburban A. M., their ratings are low and the show makes no money. The station is just filling up time.
The median age for fans of group records is ten years older than the fans of regular 1955-1971 oldies. Most group harmony fans think music ended with the English Invasion in 1964. The average age of a typical group harmony fan today is about 70. There used to be a great market for selling rare group records that commanded a lot of money. That market is gone now because most of those collectors either sold their collections or are dead.
I did a group harmony show on a 50,000 watt full time station with a huge night signal. I love group records but, group harmony music today has little validity to anyone who doesn't drink prune juice regularly.
WMTR, Morristown, N. J., does a live group show every night but, as a suburban A. M., their ratings are low and the show makes no money. The station is just filling up time.
Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz...
J
johnsummers
Guest
Wow! I think this is the first time I've agreed in principle with one of 'Truth's' posts!! (lol)
WAKE UP, Ben!!
WAKE UP, Ben!!
- Status