The 25-54 Winners & Losers

[Gregg]

A poster on another thread gave us these Winter 08 numbers for Dallas in the 25-54 demo...

1. KESS Mexican
2. KLNO Mexican
3. KHKS Contemporary Hits
4. KVIL Soft AC
5. KKDA Urban
6. KLTY Christian AC
7. KDMX Hot AC
8. KTCK Sports
9. KEGL Rock
10. KRNB Urban AC
11. KJKK Adult Rock Hits
12. KPLX Country
13. KLUV Oldies
14. KSOC Urban AC
15. KBFB Hip-Hop
16. KMVK Rhythmic AC
17. KDGE Alternative Rock
18. KSCS Country
19. KZPS Classic Rock
20. WBAP Talk

My first reaction is how youthful the 25-54 demo is. How does a Top 40 station beat a Soft AC in this demo? How does an Urban station beat the two Urban ACs? How does a hard rock station like KEGL do so much better than Classic Rock stations? KZPS is even beaten by Alternative KDGE in 25-54! And KDBN isn't even in the top 20.

How does only one of two 50,000 watt AM News-Talk stations make the top 20... and in last place no less? Are today' 25-54 adults SOOO uninterested in news in an election year? And they don't care about traffic or weather either? It's scary that this is the oldest demo that advertisers are interested in, yet the highest ranking English station is a Top 40! What does this say about Dallas vs. San Francisco or Boston where AM stations are well-represented in the 25-54 demo?

How did two Mexican FMs place #1 and 2, yet no other Spanish language station makes the top 20?

How did Country do so poorly? Isn't Dallas a Country market? Yet the two country stations are ranked 12 and 18! Was it so long ago that KSCS was the TOP station 25-54 and even #1 12+, with Terry Dorsey the top morning show? Isn't KPLX's format designed to be more "youthful" than the average country station? That's NOT enough to place it in the top 10 25-54?

Even KVIL, sort of a Soft AC, is more uptempo and has DJs talking over the music. OK, the days of The Carpenters and Barry Manilow dominating Soft AC are over. But KVIL is more uptempo than Lite-FM in NYC or KOIT in San Francisco. Interesting that in Texas' other big market, Houston, KODA is so strong. I suppose KVIL is hurt by the strength of KLTY, perhaps the most successful Christian AC in the country. In another market, most of those KLTY listeners would be tuned to KVIL.

I know Smooth Jazz is being lost in a number of markets, including NYC, DC and Denver. Yet it's strong in other markets like Chicago, LA, Phoenix, San Diego. I'm sure KOAS could have been saved by better promotion, better DJs and better production values. Certainly MoVIN' isn't blazing up the ratings, either in Dallas or L.A. I think it should be more classic dance and easily identified hits. Some things it plays never really crossed over well to the general Top 40 charts.



Gregg
[email protected]

 

[davideduardo]

My first reaction is how youthful the 25-54 demo is. How does a Top 40 station beat a Soft AC in this demo?

The CHR is targeted at 18-39 women, and it does so well among them that it places very high; there is only one CHR and several AC's, so there is fragmentation among the AC's as well. Keep in mind that Dallas in 18-34 is about 40% Hispanic, and Hispanic females who are bilingual or English dominant love CHR.

How does an Urban station beat the two Urban ACs?

Likely because the AC segment is fragged by two stations, and the fact that the Black community is younger than the nonHispanic white segment, so pure Urban (which is an 18-49 format and very broad) has more cume to draw on. This is typical even when looking at markets like Atlanta or DC or Chicago that have much larger, as a percentage, Black populations.

How does a hard rock station like KEGL do so much better than Classic Rock stations? KZPS is even beaten by Alternative KDGE in 25-54! And KDBN isn't even in the top 20.

There you have to look at each station, its music and the size of the target for each as well as fragmentation and alternatives. Remember, the average diary listener writes in three stations.... essentially nobnody listens to only one station.

How does only one of two 50,000 watt AM News-Talk stations make the top 20... and in last place no less? Are today' 25-54 adults SOOO uninterested in news in an election year?

Most talk is on AM, which means that most people under 45 just won't listen. This is why traditional talkers are migrsating slowly to FM in other markets. In any case, most of the audience of WBAP is over 55, and KRLD is just not, by listener reaction, a good station.

And they don't care about traffic or weather either?

Even the ACs and the Spanish language stations give weather and traffic often. No need to go to AM for this.

It's scary that this is the oldest demo that advertisers are interested in, yet the highest ranking English station is a Top 40! What does this say about Dallas vs. San Francisco or Boston where AM stations are well-represented in the 25-54 demo?

It may say many things... but we are talking about how Dallas MSA listeners use radio. Maybe the Boston stations or KGO are, simply, better?

How did two Mexican FMs place #1 and 2, yet no other Spanish language station makes the top 20?

Mexican stations are in Mexico. Two American stations with Spanish language programming were #1 and #2. Those two stations, one the equivalent of country and one the equivalent of classic hits, are the only two with full market signals. The remainder are what are commonly called rimshots, and reach a percentage, but not all, of the market.

How did Country do so poorly? Isn't Dallas a Country market? Yet the two country stations are ranked 12 and 18! Was it so long ago that KSCS was the TOP station 25-54 and even #1 12+, with Terry Dorsey the top morning show? Isn't KPLX's format designed to be more "youthful" than the average country station? That's NOT enough to place it in the top 10 25-54?

Too many stations, to little good music? Country is rather cyclical, and many blame it on issues like too many pop sounding new artists, abandonment of the core country sound, etc., etc. That's an issue for the next CRS, so that is as deep as I can go.

Even KVIL, sort of a Soft AC, is more uptempo and has DJs talking over the music. OK, the days of The Carpenters and Barry Manilow dominating Soft AC are over. But KVIL is more uptempo than Lite-FM in NYC or KOIT in San Francisco. Interesting that in Texas' other big market, Houston, KODA is so strong. I suppose KVIL is hurt by the strength of KLTY, perhaps the most successful Christian AC in the country. In another market, most of those KLTY listeners would be tuned to KVIL.

Or, simply, Dallas has a large number of Christians who live their lifestyle right down to their radio choices. That does, though, make the secular AC pool smaller.

I know Smooth Jazz is being lost in a number of markets, including NYC, DC and Denver. Yet it's strong in other markets like Chicago, LA, Phoenix, San Diego.

The format was going decidedly over 55 in Dallas. Same thing as Houston, where it was flipped.

 

[johnny_letter]

My first reaction is how youthful the 25-54 demo is. How does a Top 40 station beat a Soft AC in this demo? How does an Urban station beat the two Urban ACs? How does a hard rock station like KEGL do so much better than Classic Rock stations? KZPS is even beaten by Alternative KDGE in 25-54! And KDBN isn't even in the top 20.

I can only speak for my friends and I, but we would much rather hear U2, R.E.M., Depeche Mode, 10,000 Maniacs, The Cure, etc than incessant Led Zeppelin, Pink Floyd, Doobie Brothers, Lynyrd Skynyrd and Foghat. Don't get me wrong Led Zep and Pink Floyd are great -- but way overplayed. I am 35 and grew up on the golden age of Alternative Rock. That niche is just not being covered right now on D/FW radio.

 

[dallasrockradio]

Likely because the AC segment is fragged by two stations, and the fact that the Black community is younger than the nonHispanic white segment, so pure Urban (which is an 18-49 format and very broad) has more cume to draw on. This is typical even when looking at markets like Atlanta or DC or Chicago that have much larger, as a percentage, Black populations.

Urban is also fragged by 2 stations. KKDA, K104 and KBFB, 97.9 The Beat.

How does a hard rock station like KEGL do so much better than Classic Rock stations? KZPS is even beaten by Alternative KDGE in 25-54! And KDBN isn't even in the top 20.

KEGL plays just the right stuff for someone 25-54. They throw in a lot older rock with the new.
KDBN has a weaker signal than the other rock stations.

 

[Bob LaBlah]

In the Country arena there is plenty of music to make a station sound great Pop/Texas or somewhere in between.

In DFW the issue is more like in the last 5 years you have had ABC and Susquehanna preparing to sell and then selling. Stripping the budgets, gutting and bleeding out the Talent, Promotions, and Spirit of the stations.

Scaling back to save a dollar vs. sustaining a product that can make a dollar.

The Wolf is a mere shell of what it used to be. From 5+ shares to the old KPLX ratings.

Jeremy is on for 2 shifts on KSCS...Jeremy is good....but ..uh this is Market 5 right ? Middays and Nights ???

Yeah - don't think it is the music.

 

[little1]

Couple of things-
This book is right after the Eagle switched, IIRC, so chances are they had a lot of sampling, billboards etc, so that might be why they did so well...

And I'm no fan of Movin, but that chart shows a point I've been trying to make- that it's entirely possible for KMVK to get lower 12+ ratings than the Oasis did, but to do better 25-54, and therefore more likely to do better in selling advertising.

And to riff on something DE said- how many people do you know who rely on radio to get "news". Not to get a traffic report when stuck on 635, or to see how close those storm clouds are, but rely on radio as a primary news source. With the internet, and especially the internet in the palm of your hand (or hook on your belt) old-fashioned news stations or just that, old-fashioned. 10 minutes on the internet can get me what KRLD will take 45 minutes (18 of which are spots) to tell me...They just don't have that much mass appeal to a genration that knows how to use the "internets".

And while this list is interesting, what's most interesting to me is how this compares to billing. Granted they have the advantage of more units, but the top 2 billers in the market last year rank 20th and 8th on that list. Think WBAP minds coming 20th on THAT list when they're #1 or #2 on the billing list?

 

[MikeShannon914]

What I find strange there is that WBAP is in 20th place in 25-54, but in 5th place 12+. Sounds like to me that WBAP is laughing all the way to the bank with that "non-coveted" 55+ group, and there's enough of them to shoot the station up FIFTEEN slots in the 12+. (You know there's little help from the sub-25 year-olds, unless they're part of the Young Republicans or something.) And yes, 'BAP's rates are nothing to sneeze at, either.

 

[rbrucecarter5]

I can only speak for my friends and I, but we would much rather hear U2, R.E.M., Depeche Mode, 10,000 Maniacs, The Cure, etc than incessant Led Zeppelin, Pink Floyd, Doobie Brothers, Lynyrd Skynyrd and Foghat. Don't get me wrong Led Zep and Pink Floyd are great -- but way overplayed. I am 35 and grew up on the golden age of Alternative Rock. That niche is just not being covered right now on D/FW radio.

With me - it was the "ABC" factor: "A"nything "B"ut "C"ountry that is. Once 92.5 started dabbling with country, I move my preset up the dial two notches to KNIN. No country crap on there! KTCU was dabbling with country for a while, and I gave up on them until they come back to their senses.

 

[rbrucecarter5]

And to riff on something DE said- how many people do you know who rely on radio to get "news". Not to get a traffic report when stuck on 635, or to see how close those storm clouds are, but rely on radio as a primary news source. With the internet, and especially the internet in the palm of your hand (or hook on your belt) old-fashioned news stations or just that, old-fashioned. 10 minutes on the

I gave up on "news" talk stations a long time ago. Most of the time they are playing some sort of nationally syndicated talk show and you are lucky if they do two minutes of news at the top of the hour. Forget that cr@p - I could care less what some radio host or their callers think. I want news - I get it from the Internet because it is THERE. I don't have to wait through 20 inane callers opinions before the news at the top of the hour.

And traffic and weather? By the time I hear it on the "news" stations - I'm stuck in the traffic jam or hail storm. I check the Internet and AVOID problems before I get stuck in them.

Talk shows aren't news.

 

[davideduardo]

And while this list is interesting, what's most interesting to me is how this compares to billing. Granted they have the advantage of more units, but the top 2 billers in the market last year rank 20th and 8th on that list. Think WBAP minds coming 20th on THAT list when they're #1 or #2 on the billing list?

WBAP has had flat billings for 8 years, and the market is up overall about 12% over that period. KRLD is now about 4th or 5th in billings, and down nearly 30% since 2000. While both are billing nicely, they are among a group of 7 to 8 stations that are all very close in billings.

As AM audiences age, the trend will continue.

 

[davideduardo]

In the Country arena there is plenty of music to make a station sound great Pop/Texas or somewhere in between.

In DFW the issue is more like in the last 5 years you have had ABC and Susquehanna preparing to sell and then selling. Stripping the budgets, gutting and bleeding out the Talent, Promotions, and Spirit of the stations.

Scaling back to save a dollar vs. sustaining a product that can make a dollar.

The Wolf is a mere shell of what it used to be. From 5+ shares to the old KPLX ratings.

Jeremy is on for 2 shifts on KSCS...Jeremy is good....but ..uh this is Market 5 right ? Middays and Nights ???

Yeah - don't think it is the music.

Good points, and bears watching country in other markets in the region.

 

[gpzyzyzf]

Hey folks....this thread is FLAWED from the very beginning!!! I don't know where the first guy got his numbers....but they are wrong....and if they are wrong....all the opinions about the numbers are wrong also. Here are the CORRECT 25-54 numbers for the metro:

1- KESS
2 – KLNO
3 – KHKS
4 – KKDA
5 – KTCK
6 – KBFB
7t – KVIL
7t – KEGL
9 – KLUV
10 – KDMX
11t – KRNB
11t – KLTY
13t – KJKK
13t – KPLX
13t – WBAP
16 – KZPS
17 – KSOC
18 – KSCS
19t – KTCY

Now you may comment on the correction. Thank you for your time.....and your attention to detail!

 

[War Of Attrition]

One can only imagine how strong WBAP would be if it was on FM and able to pull 25-54s.

 

[jeffdfw]

Hey folks....this thread is FLAWED from the very beginning!!! I don't know where the first guy got his numbers....but they are wrong....and if they are wrong....all the opinions about the numbers are wrong also. Here are the CORRECT 25-54 numbers for the metro:

1- KESS
2 – KLNO
3 – KHKS
4 – KKDA
5 – KTCK
6 – KBFB
7t – KVIL
7t – KEGL
9 – KLUV
10 – KDMX
11t – KRNB
11t – KLTY
13t – KJKK
13t – KPLX
13t – WBAP
16 – KZPS
17 – KSOC
18 – KSCS
19t – KTCY

Now you may comment on the correction. Thank you for your time.....and your attention to detail!

Ouch. My bad - :-\ Those were old numbers I posted on the other thread. Not sure if that was a trend or the previous book. Either way gpzyzyzf is correct. So - in this case Live 105.3, MOViN' and The Edge are all MIA. Not to mention The Bone or The Texas Twister.

 

[BBontheRadio]

Hey folks....this thread is FLAWED from the very beginning!!! I don't know where the first guy got his numbers....but they are wrong....and if they are wrong....all the opinions about the numbers are wrong also.

Nice catch, thanks!

 

[txchipk]

Hey folks....this thread is FLAWED from the very beginning!!! I don't know where the first guy got his numbers....but they are wrong....and if they are wrong....all the opinions about the numbers are wrong also. Here are the CORRECT 25-54 numbers for the metro:

1- KESS
2 – KLNO
3 – KHKS
4 – KKDA
5 – KTCK
6 – KBFB
7t – KVIL
7t – KEGL
9 – KLUV
10 – KDMX
11t – KRNB
11t – KLTY
13t – KJKK
13t – KPLX
13t – WBAP
16 – KZPS
17 – KSOC
18 – KSCS
19t – KTCY

Now you may comment on the correction. Thank you for your time.....and your attention to detail!

Ouch. My bad - :-\ Those were old numbers I posted on the other thread. Not sure if that was a trend or the previous book. Either way gpzyzyzf is correct. So - in this case Live 105.3, MOViN' and The Edge are all MIA. Not to mention The Bone or The Texas Twister.

I would assume KDGE slipped off due to KEGL likely taking some of its audience. Similarly, KLNO and KESS are likely benefiting from having a full-market Spanish-language station disappear.

 

[miked5551]

what about the live 105.3 shows?

 

[jeffdfw]

Yes, I would very interested to see how Jagger, P&K and Russ are doing in their demos?