The Big Man Goes Unmourned

[TheBigA]

You said the key words when you said "canned" and "Syndicated". Does anyone have to guess why TSL is so down?

Huh? TSL really isn't down significantly.

I thought it was interesting that satellite and internet radio is also canned on the weekend. In fact, Sirius offered "get well" wishes to Clarence yesterday. Whoops! Wasn't that nice of them.

You think anyone really wants to work on the weekend? The highest paid talent has it in their contract that they don't have to work weekends, nights, or anything outside the regular shift. Paul McCartney could die, and if it happens outside their shift, no one with any seniority will make a special trip. Anyone willing to volunteer? Nope.

 

[SirRoxalot]

There are people who would work the shift. There's no money in the budget. At this point, you're lucky if there's one life shift per day on the weekends. Many stations are automated from 7PM Friday until 6AM Monday. If EAS isn't activated, radio never notices.

 

[TheBigA]

There are people who would work the shift. There's no money in the budget. At this point, you're lucky if there's one life shift per day on the weekends. Many stations are automated from 7PM Friday until 6AM Monday. If EAS isn't activated, radio never notices.

That's not the point. It's not an issue of money. It's dedication. When Michael Jackson died, my airstaff didn't ask about getting extra money. They came in without being asked. They were dedicated. Sure, under normal circumstances, the station is automated. You don't staff for emergencies. Even public utilities don't do that. But if it's a death in the demo, why not offer to do a specialty show? Now if the PD is unreachable, I understand. But why not make an offer? Whenever I volunteer to do something, I get an immediate YES.

 

[chas108]

Probably not a PD in America who wouldn't like to be live, 24/7, especially when something like this happens. But when decisions are made at home office, there's not much the local guys can do except accept. Have to admit, after I heard the news I turned the radio on immediately. And yes, the heritage classic rocker was my first stop.

Excellent reality check Jim.

But that said, when something of grave import takes place, that sense of pride and duty should take over and you swap emails or phone calls with the PD and co-workers and then go into the station and make some great radio.

A's point is spot-on and addresses a larger question: are you passionate about what you do?

During my life as Creative Services Director, there was a lot of volunteering necessary to stay on top with the listeners. The morning Saddam was captured, I drove in and produced a promo with TV audio celebrating the arrest and thanking our troops. The last time a space shuttle crashed, I was headed in but the AM guy was already there compiling TV clips into a tribute song. It was decided my services weren't needed but at least the conversation took place.

When tornadoes devastated portions of our TSA, the emails started flying between programming, promotions and air talent. A plan was quickly thrown together and unveiled the next morning on-air and on-line. Thousands of dollars were raised and people were helped. But it began with dedicated people willing to go above and beyond.

 

[SirRoxalot]

I get it. People should volunteer and go in unpaid so they can make up for the lack of foresight or dedication by a guy who wears suits worth $2K and takes home millions.

Once again, some people need to remember that every million that they take in bonus money means the jobs of 12-15 people who do the actual work that earns them that bonus. In the case of part-timers, you're looking at the revenue from ONE SPOT to pay for a WHOLE SHIFT. Do you mean to tell me that a live body isn't worth the revenue from ONE SPOT, and that having live talent isn't likely to make up the money "saved"?

There are lot of people doing a lot more with a lot less in radio stations these days. Staffing levels haven't rebounded with revenue. Neither have benefits. Salaries are the at nearly the same levels that they were DECADES ago. You want to talk about dedication? Where are the examples of dedication coming from ABOVE?

 

[cee]

Once again, some people need to remember that every million that they take in bonus money means the jobs of 12-15 people who do the actual work that earns them that bonus. In the case of part-timers, you're looking at the revenue from ONE SPOT to pay for a WHOLE SHIFT. Do you mean to tell me that a live body isn't worth the revenue from ONE SPOT, and that having live talent isn't likely to make up the money "saved"?

Or how about run one half hour infomercial or religious show early Sunday morning or later that evening to pay for 2 or 3 weekend people. Weekend gigs are a labor of love for former full time talents who just want to keep their fingers in the business. Good talent will work cheap just for kicks. Sounds like a win/win situation. Unfortunately, as John Belushi used to say on Weekend Update: "but noooooooo..."

 

[TheBigA]

I get it. People should volunteer and go in unpaid so they can make up for the lack of foresight or dedication by a guy who wears suits worth $2K and takes home millions.

Either you care about what you do, or you don't. If you spend your life worrying about the suits who make $2 million, you'll never be happy. Never. You have to care about what you do, and ignore all the BS and baloney. Or you're wasting time. Because anyone can make $2 million if they try. But focus and passion takes heart. I want a staff with passion, who care more about what they do than money. Who'll show up when a superstar dies, and doesn't ask "where's mine?" What an absolute insult to the memory of The Big Man to say money is more important than dedication.

You want to talk about dedication? Where are the examples of dedication coming from ABOVE?

They're dedicated to money. You claim to be dedicated to programming, but that's not what you really care about. You're no better than them. You don't get art by worrying about "dedication from above." Clarence didn't care that Bruce got rich off his art. He was ready to go back on tour next year, even if it hurt. And he never resented Bruce for making millions off his art.

 

[John C]

I guess I know where I'll be Friday night...

Whether it will be the actual concert replay or just a replay of the live versions of the setlist, I don't know. I feel fortunate to have been at that show. There was a lot of speculation that it might be THE final show but of course nobody suspected this would happen so quickly.

While I'm on a Bruce & The ESB roll, can somebody explain to me why only Bruce is in the Rock & Roll HOF and not the E Street Band as well? As an example, Tom Petty AND the Heartbreakers went in together. Both Bruce and Tom have solo projects but both bands were on the majority of the artists' work. Can somebody enlighten me?

The reason that Bruce was put in the HOF and not the ESB is that actually none of the albums (you have to have put out your first album 25 years ago in order to qualify for HOF consideration) were Bruce & ESB. They were just Bruce Springsteen........I do believe that the Live 1975-1985 was the first and maybe only album that has Bruce & the ESB as the artist.......That came out exactly 25 years ago, so it would sure be nice if they go into the next class!

Good point, BBB! I thought of Nebraska as Bruce's first solo album, with the band playing with him on all the albums up to that point. However, as you mentioned, the first few albums are "Bruce Springsteen". Thanks for the clarification and hopefully the ESB will be in the hall soon.

 

[SirRoxalot]

I doubt that there's anybody on this board that doesn't care about what they do. If they didn't care, they wouldn't be here. There is something called fairness. After a while, most people get tired of getting dumped on, and building fortunes for other people while getting precious little appreciation. We have people on this board who've been fired because of BAD decisions from far above that actually COST the company more revenue than was saved by eliminating their salary and benefits.

You talk about The Big Man like he was a personal friend. Well, the love that Clarence got from his Boss meant everything to him and his career, and I'm pretty sure that the money wasn't bad, either. The Man was appreciated, and not expected to go uncompensated. Anybody out there feel loved lately?

Yeah, I know, suck it up, buttercup. It's BUSINESS. Well, it's the ENTERTAINMENT business, which ain't making widgets. The companies that understand that thrive. The companies that don't are the ones with the big financial problems, bankruptcies, and "restructurings".

Look at the talent pool. Any young people getting into this business? Not so much. You've got guys who have enough juice to defend themselves, and too many guys just trying to hang on until retirement. Note to Suits: Talent isn't lucky to have a job, you're lucky that they're dedicated enough to their craft and their audience that they're hanging on waiting for you to crash and burn.

"A", I've heard you complain about a lack of talent in the industry. Well, could it have something to do with how the industry treats talent? Do you have any idea how many outstanding people have walked away from radio? The opportunities were - and are - better elsewhere. Imagine, that for the cost of ONE SPOT PER SHIFT, you could get some of them to come back and entertain on the weekend simply because they love the business. Trust me, they'd make it worth the cost, and likely lead to much more revenue in than they cost.

It's simple. There's way too much stupid, short-sighted management trickling down from above. After you've gotten trickled on enough, you have very little interest in extra shower time.

 

[TheBigA]

I doubt that there's anybody on this board that doesn't care about what they do. If they didn't care, they wouldn't be here. There is something called fairness. After a while, most people get tired of getting dumped on, and building fortunes for other people while getting precious little appreciation.

But that is the mentality that got a lot of air talent and programmers in trouble. Believe me...I saw it first hand.

When all the buying and selling took place 10-12 years ago, a lot of programmers and air talent saw it as an opportunity to cash in. They tried to play in the same waters with the fat cats. And most of them got burned. You don't make a deal with the devil and still go to heaven. That's what a lot of these people tried to do. They hired agents and signed big contracts with stock options. Next thing you knew, programmers were in meetings with owners. And they found out first hand what the other side of the business is about. And most of them simply couldn't play in that ballpark. So they're now on the beach.

So I say to you that if you want "fairness" and "equality," you're welcome to open that door. It's like telling your parents and your teachers that selling drugs is a way to the top. But once you've opened that door, you can't go back. You can't talk about art or programming or audience any more. Because you left them behind...and you did it for the wrong reasons.

 

[TheBigA]

You talk about The Big Man like he was a personal friend. Well, the love that Clarence got from his Boss meant everything to him and his career, and I'm pretty sure that the money wasn't bad, either. The Man was appreciated, and not expected to go uncompensated. Anybody out there feel loved lately?

You have to keep in mind that Bruce disbanded the ESB for almost 20 years. He had his songwriting royalties to live on, and if he wanted to tour, he could play some solo shows. But the band was out of work. Lots of them found other gigs, but none that paid as well. The most visible was Max Weinberg. But do you think he would have taken a job that required him to work every day if he didn't have to? Same with Clarence. Sure he did a couple of solo albums and did session work. But he was Clarence Clemmons! That's like being a former programmer of WABC and programming a medium market station. Would someone from Buffalo take a gig in Idaho if it wasn't Boise? Anyone who has ever been at the top knows what it's like and they don't want to audition just to pay the rent. They already passed the audition.

My point is that there are parallels between being an artist and being in radio. Bruce has been on the same record label for his entire career. It's gone through ownership and management changes, and he's stayed there through it all. The label has done lots of dumb things that have, at times, compromised his art. But he stayed with them, and shared a portion of his money with a lot of no-talent idiots who can't even hum a hit song. But he has NEVER complained about it, and he's never wanted what they have. He's never wanted own his own label, even though he could. Because the business isn't art. You have to know what side you're on, and why you do it. If you do it for the money, then you open the door to all the bad things that brings. If you do it for the art, then the other stuff doesn't matter, and even if you get fired, you keep doing it, whatever that means, because you have to.

 

[SirRoxalot]

Wow. TWO posts from our non-resident corporate stooge.

First of all, the E Street Band never had a 20 year hiatus from performing with Springsteen. There were PLENTY of tours, even if they weren't on all of his solo albums. Second, they never wanted for work. Individually and/or collectively, the backed up a laundry list of talent - including Springsteen solo efforts. They were all in demand as session players. Clarence Clemons probably was the best known, with the possible exception of Little Steven.

As far as radio is concerned, I guess that we should be thankful that our corporate masters allow us to work 50-60 hours per week for less than we made a decade ago, with fewer benefits. All those of you who cashed in when the bigs came in throwing around millions of dollars, raise your hands. Anybody? Bueller? OK, now how about those of you who got cashed out when your 401K tanked along with the company stock. Yeah, A, I know, we should have managed our 401Ks better. Trusting your employer is sooooo stupid. And yet, we should jump into the breach to make him look good when his poor planning hurts his product, right?

Bruce was with the same company largely because they had him under contract, and paid him well. He was treated with respect because he was a commodity that they valued. He was apparently smart enough to have a contract that allowed him to set his musical direction instead of working at the whim of the record company. Bruce had - and has - juice. He brought a lot of people along with him - just as a lot of talented radio people have done - simply because he valued the talents of his band. He recognized that it takes the talents of a lot of people to create greatness.

It's too bad that "Mr. Suit" doesn't get that. For a few dollars more, they could have a much better product. Doing it for the art is noble, but you've still got bills to pay. And every artist knows that you have to set a value on your abilities if you want to continue.

 

[TheBigA]

All those of you who cashed in when the bigs came in throwing around millions of dollars, raise your hands. Anybody? Bueller?

You want names? Just search the R&Rs from that era, if you can. You'll see some familiar names. And if you dig a little, you'll read the details of their deals. A handful are still working, and they're the only live & local talent at their station, because they sucked up all the available money. But hey, they got theirs, right? No one else matters. Some of them signed syndication deals to justify their salaries. It's happening right now. There's a lot of greed to go around. But if you think there aren't any people who cashed in just because they don't respond to your post, you're wrong.

Look...lots of people take payola too. They justify it by saying "where's mine?" The minute you cross that line, you're already in trouble. You want to be a player and get the same treatment as the suits? Fine. When was the last time you spoke with an advertiser and brought in some money, instead of asking "where's mine?" The big trend now in air talent is to sign endorsement deals. Lots of people in markets the same size as Buffalo are doing it. They get a lump cash payment and free products in the deal. If you're on the air, and you're not endorsing a product, you're leaving cash on the table. So go ahead. Hire an agent and sign a deal. I promise you that you'll keep your job if the station gets its share of the money. You want to play with the big guys? You want equality? That's how you get it. You could make more money than your boss. But that would change everything. If you're doin' it for the money, then you're not doing it for art. And if that's equality for you, then we know which side of the table you're on.

 

[JustPastBuffalo]

Is it a business or is it art? Big, this may be where not being in the market puts you at a disadvantage. Not saying you haven't made a few points, but Rox summarizes the situation in Buffalo more accurately and also offers a clearer picture of reality, at least as I have seen and experienced it over the last few years. If this were a debate, I'd have him ahead on points.

This thread has gone from a discussion of why there was no tribute to Clarence Clemons on the radio last Saturday night to artists vs. salesmen, to personalities making/taking deals. Can we at least get back to the artists-businessman phase? I know many musicians, artists, commercial producers and on air radio performers. They're making an adequate living by Buffalo standards, but wages and benefits have been cut or remain stagnant. Yes, there are a few six figure air personalities, but many more six figure sales people. Every "artist" that I know simply wants to be respected for their contributions to the success of the company/client/endeavor and paid fair market value for his or her production, knowledge, expertise and performance. That's not too much to ask.

As to why stations didn't go live last Saturday night, it has nothing to do with the staffs' professionalism and dedication. The staffs of every cluster in the market have been cut, drastically in some cases, yet consistently go above and beyond the call of duty. It may be that there weren't any "artists" available. It is June in Buffalo, afterall. (If you've lived in Cleveland, Milwaukee, Detroit, Rochester or Buffalo, you get the meaning of that.) I'm sure it wasn't a matter of any staffer thinking WGAS.

 

[SirRoxalot]

Why not just broker airtime, and go out and sell it yourself? Heck, The Suits have been trying to eliminate sales people as well, and I'm sure that they'd go for that deal in a New York minute if the dollars were right.

As far as "business vs. art" is concerned, I'm not sure if radio's an art or a craft. Either way, I know a lot of people who are putting in a lot more hours for less money so a few guys can play the "mine's bigger than yours" game. Your answer is to redesign the industry. Well, that's happening anyway. It may get very interesting down the road when the number of channels isn't so limited. There are plenty of forces out there trying to reduce the role of radio, and promising "more efficient use of the bandwidth". Don't be surprised if the next generation of talent bypasses radio altogether.

 

[TheBigA]

Is it a business or is it art?

It's both. But when we're talking about programming and talent, it's an art. So comparing the owners or managers with air talent is apples and oranges. They have different motivations and different goals. No surprise that their rewards are different. Rox sounds like someone who is bitter that others have made millions while he has not. That's irrelevant and insulting to this discussion. If he wants to make money, there are lots of ways to do it. But there's a tradeoff that one makes when taking money, and no one is immune.

Yes, there are a few six figure air personalities, but many more six figure sales people. Every "artist" that I know simply wants to be respected for their contributions to the success of the company/client/endeavor and paid fair market value for his or her production, knowledge, expertise and performance. That's not too much to ask.

Well said, but I believe when you focus on money, you lose integrity. I think a lot of air personalities outside the market who got rich 10 years ago lost a connection with the audience, and they lost their integrity. In the process, it ruined radio. That's why some are now on the beach. A lot of them have written books on their time in the sun, but few have admitted their indisgretions.

As to why stations didn't go live last Saturday night, it has nothing to do with the staffs' professionalism and dedication. The staffs of every cluster in the market have been cut, drastically in some cases, yet consistently go above and beyond the call of duty.

In any case, it's been my experience that whenever I have volunteered to do something on my day off, the boss has always approved. My main issue with Clarence wasn't in Buffalo, but at Sirius, where an air talent VT'd a show, offering him "get well" wishes," and didn't rush in or call anyone on Sunday to get the offending line removed. That's simply unprofessional, and there's no excuse for it.

 

[Radio_bored-Op]

Bottom line. This is an item of interest to Rock fans. For a Rock (not Modern Rock but AOR/Classic Rock) or Classic Hits station to not have given Clarence his due this morning is to have missed the boat.

I am NOT PERSONALLY replying to the death of the "big man"
( as this was before my era, barely, but it was) but perhaps...
as I stand by my original post: . . . .time moves forward, and
while unfortunate was he forgotten, MAYBE .....I dont want to
be insensitive, but perhaps, he wasn't individually as significant
as BRUCE himself passing away, or HIS IMPACT would be bigger
if the general public more educated.
OR: more of a SOLO CAREER would have helped.
the first person I think of when u sax,
is David Koz, or kids today would answer Kenny G
-
ok - folks, CHICAGO is a MOMUMENTAL AMERICAN BAND
in the umtimely death of ________ their saxophone player,
Name Him...
(no google) ,

 

[Paul_Warren]

...A handful are still working, and they're the only live & local talent at their station, because they sucked up all the available money. But hey, they got theirs, right? No one else matters. Some of them signed syndication deals to justify their salaries. It's happening right now. There's a lot of greed to go around...lots of people take payola too. They justify it by saying "where's mine?" The minute you cross that line, you're already in trouble...we know which side of the table you're on.

Big, with all due respect, the idea that talent who elevated their game to stay employed are somehow equivalent to people taking payola sounds bitter and hypocritical. Nobody "sucked up all the available money." They distinguished themselves by demonstrating they're worth it, and adapted to the changing world. That's called professionalism.

I co-hosted a small-time syndicated weekend show for a few years. I wasn't "sucking up" any money at all. I was self-employed, and the stations got the show on barter. The same opportunity was available to anyone who wanted to work as hard as I did.

There have always been a hundred or a thousand people for every opening for an air personality. Were we "sucking up all the available money" because we took that first small market gig? Please.

If you want to get paid for doing what you love for an entire career, you need to adapt what you love to fit the needs of people who buy it. If that's "selling out," we've all done it.

 

[TheBigA]

Big, with all due respect, the idea that talent who elevated their game to stay employed are somehow equivalent to people taking payola sounds bitter and hypocritical.

If I made that connection, I apologize, because I don't believe I said that. I don't think it's equivalent. Different strokes for different folks. But not all talent who happened to get big contracts actually "elevated their games." Some just had better agents. We also see that in sports and movies, where a great agent gets a great deal for their client, and their client isn't ready to deliver the goods. My other point is that circumstances changed between 2000 and 2008. Companies were flush with money then, and it all dried up. But they had to fulfill their contracts (unless they went bankrupt), and that meant others had to pay for the greed of certain lucky air talent.

Your situation is different. My general view is that if someone feels their hard work is making employer overly rich, then it's time for that employee to start their own business, so they can get 100% of their value, rather than a percentage. That's what I did, and I've never looked back. Apparently, so did you.

 

[SirRoxalot]

Rox sounds like someone who is bitter that others have made millions while he has not.

Really? I have no problem with what TALENT makes. I don't care what management makes. I do care that the product has been seriously cheapened in order to feed exorbitant profits to a few spreadsheet jockeys, and that goes for a lot of industries besides radio.

A, you sound like a guy who's bitter that some air talent managed to extract deals from the consolidators. Some of them must have stepped on your toes, because you've consistently denigrated the role of talent in the broadcasting business. Maybe there are a few prima donnas out there, but they're certainly the exception, not the rule. Most talent is making a modest living for putting in a lot of hours and a lot of effort.

Nobody here is looking to get rich, but it would be nice if the support that used to come from local control, fully-staffed promotions departments, and outside advertising still existed. Companies are not investing in their product. They're strip-mining the good will that was built up by generations of operators that came before them. Listeners and advertisers are treated like sheep, not customers, and it ain't the talent on either the programming or sales side who are pushing that attitude.

Yeah, the money wasn't what the consolidators expected in 2008-2009. Why not? Largely because the consolidators way overpaid for the properties they bought, and they loaded themselves down with an untenable amount of debt without any regard to the idea that a boom ain't forever. They created the bubble, and then acted surprised when it burst. Unfortunately, it's the people in the trenches who have taken the hit during the "contraction".