"The Big Noise in Digital Radio" (BusinessWeek again)

[PocketRadio]

"The Big Noise in Digital Radio"

"Like the Accurian, Boston Acoustics' Receptor Radio HD has to be hooked up with an included dipole FM antenna (the user's manual recommends stringing it up to a wall near the window) to get a good selection of HD stations. For a piece of technology this expensive, I still think it's absurd to be taping wires up on the wall—and the first radio maker to address this problem will be doing us all a favor."

http://www.businessweek.com/technology/content/apr2007/tc20070413_653055.htm

Still, mainly a shill-spot for HD Radio - Douglas is almost hopeless, again !

 

[Mike Walker]

Obviously written by someone who doesn't understand not only FM radio, but VHF reception in general. The higher the antenna the better. And ALL reception requires a freakin' antenna.

How freakin' hypocritical not to say about DirecTV "or a piece of technology this expensive, I still think it's absurd to be screwing holes in walls to mount dishes, and for wires,—and the first to address this problem will be doing us all a favor."

Ditto ANY rf technology. When information is sent from point a to point b wirelessly, an ANTENNA IS REQUIRED. Having said that, the first manufacturer to put lots of RF shielding inside the box, so that a single (or double) telescoping rod antenna ON THE UNIT will be all that's required, will make this silly argument go away. I hope they include an external antenna jack, however. Those of us with the good sense to hook up a proper antenna will ALWAYS get better reception (take it from the guy with a 300' long wire running through his backyard for shortwave reception. Now if HD required THAT, some whining about antennas might be justified. It doesn't (require that), but it might well be great for pulling in some freakin' AM HD! Not to mention DRM shortwave).

 

[PocketRadio]

None of my analog radios need external antennas to work properly.

 

[radiopilot]

None of my analog radios need external antennas to work properly.

Right!

I can now see alot of suckers that bought the HD radios trying to hook up a FM antenna with elements out the windows of high rise buildings in New York... Yeah... that'll fly!

Or even for that matter installing antennas in deed restricted neighborhoods...

Radiopilot

 

[R.F. Burns]

None of my analog radios need external antennas to work properly.

Right!

I can now see alot of suckers that bought the HD radios trying to hook up a FM antenna with elements out the windows of high rise buildings in New York... Yeah... that'll fly!

Or even for that matter installing antennas in deed restricted neighborhoods...

Radiopilot

What are you talking about here? Have you ever been in the big city? Outside of Manhattan do you know anything about NYC? Doesn't sound that way from what you've written here. Do you know of an FM radio that doesn't require an external antenna? Ever hear of a whip antenna which all FM radios have? It's external to the radios case. How stupid do you think people are in here. Oh and in many of NY's office buildings which consitute the majority of Manhattans midtown region, the windows don't open. Welcome to NYC.

 

[radiopilot]

None of my analog radios need external antennas to work properly.

Right!

I can now see alot of suckers that bought the HD radios trying to hook up a FM antenna with elements out the windows of high rise buildings in New York... Yeah... that'll fly!

Or even for that matter installing antennas in deed restricted neighborhoods...

Radiopilot

What are you talking about here? Have you ever been in the big city? Outside of Manhattan do you know anything about NYC? Doesn't sound that way from what you've written here. Do you know of an FM radio that doesn't require an external antenna? Ever hear of a whip antenna which all FM radios have? It's external to the radios case. How stupid do you think people are in here. Oh and in many of NY's office buildings which consitute the majority of Manhattans midtown region, the windows don't open. Welcome to NYC.

RF,

Not everyone on these boards are 'ignoramous' as you might called them...

Yes I have lived in New York, New Jersey, worked in Connecticutt, MA., Baltimore, Washington D.C, Virginia, etc. so yes I do know about the NorthEast....

Perhaps I don't live there now, but my travels do allow me to visit and listen to the radio stations as I drive and work in those areas... When I'm in Philly... I exclusively listen to WXPN as for programming they are second to none... and yet they are a college station out of U. Pennsylvania...


What I was referring to was the external antenna as some others have described to get the HD signals... Yet this is what is believed to pick up these HD signals?

Radiopilot

 

[Chuck]

What I was referring to was the external antenna as some others have described to get the HD signals... Yet this is what is believed to pick up these HD signals?

Radiopilot

I think that is a valid point. At 60 miles from my nearest HD station, I have to use a high gain Yagi to get the HD to lock in on my HDT-1. Perhaps a more modest antenna would suffice, but the Yagi was already in place for off the air TV. The tuner did not work satisfactorily in HD at my location with the supplied dipole antenna, although it was reasonably impressive in analog. The station in question comes in fine on my analog BA receptor clock radio, using just the rat-tail antenna that came with it. That antenna is just dangling behind the table that it sits on.

Will most people really connect their radios to an outside (or better indoor) antenna?

 

[Mike Walker]

Well I live 80+ miles from most HD stations, am surrounded by mountains so it's a very multipath-rich environment, and get good HD reception with an indoor antenna.

Besides, MOST Americans live in urban, or suburban areas served by STRONG FM signals. For the vast majority of Americans this is such a non-issue. And RF is right, EVERY FM ANTENNA IS EXTERNAL! Now ferrite rod AM antennas are internal (actually IN the radio), but FM antennas are ALWAYS external...i.e. OUTSIDE THE RADIO, whether it's the headphone cord on a walkman, a telescopic whip, rabbit ears, a wire dipole, or external yagi. Every single one of them is external...OUTSIDE THE RADIO. A radio without an antenna input is, imho, DEFECTIVE, because PROPER reception requires proper orientation of the antenna. Those table and clock radios that use their power cords as an antenna (ALSO external, by the way) aren't even trying to decode clean analog stereo (they couldn't without a proper antenna!), much less HD. In fact, I find that what's needed for noise-free analog stereo and for HD is pretty much exactly the same.

 

[Chuck]

Well I live 80+ miles from most HD stations, am surrounded by mountains so it's a very multipath-rich environment, and get good HD reception with an indoor antenna.

Besides, MOST Americans live in urban, or suburban areas served by STRONG FM signals. For the vast majority of Americans this is such a non-issue. And RF is right, EVERY FM ANTENNA IS EXTERNAL! Now ferrite rod AM antennas are internal (actually IN the radio), but FM antennas are ALWAYS external...i.e. OUTSIDE THE RADIO, whether it's the headphone cord on a walkman, a telescopic whip, rabbit ears, a wire dipole, or external yagi. Every single one of them is external...OUTSIDE THE RADIO. A radio without an antenna input is, imho, DEFECTIVE, because PROPER reception requires proper orientation of the antenna. Those table and clock radios that use their power cords as an antenna (ALSO external, by the way) aren't even trying to decode clean analog stereo (they couldn't without a proper antenna!), much less HD. In fact, I find that what's needed for noise-free analog stereo and for HD is pretty much exactly the same.

Of course, that is correct, but I still wonder if most people will actually use an auxiliary antenna? They haven't been very good it in the last 50 years that analog FM has been around, so I'm not sure why they would change now....

 

[PocketRadio]

Well I live 80+ miles from most HD stations, am surrounded by mountains so it's a very multipath-rich environment, and get good HD reception with an indoor antenna.

Besides, MOST Americans live in urban, or suburban areas served by STRONG FM signals. For the vast majority of Americans this is such a non-issue. And RF is right, EVERY FM ANTENNA IS EXTERNAL! Now ferrite rod AM antennas are internal (actually IN the radio), but FM antennas are ALWAYS external...i.e. OUTSIDE THE RADIO, whether it's the headphone cord on a walkman, a telescopic whip, rabbit ears, a wire dipole, or external yagi. Every single one of them is external...OUTSIDE THE RADIO. A radio without an antenna input is, imho, DEFECTIVE, because PROPER reception requires proper orientation of the antenna. Those table and clock radios that use their power cords as an antenna (ALSO external, by the way) aren't even trying to decode clean analog stereo (they couldn't without a proper antenna!), much less HD. In fact, I find that what's needed for noise-free analog stereo and for HD is pretty much exactly the same.

With my analog AM/FM radios, I get perfectly clear reception with just the internal ferrite-bar antennas for AM and with non-extended whip antennas for FM - that is exactly what consumers expect, and they will not tolerate having to mount FM dipole antennas and having to play with AM loop antennas for HD radios.

 

[Black_Shire]

Well I live 80+ miles from most HD stations, am surrounded by mountains so it's a very multipath-rich environment, and get good HD reception with an indoor antenna.

Besides, MOST Americans live in urban, or suburban areas served by STRONG FM signals. For the vast majority of Americans this is such a non-issue. And RF is right, EVERY FM ANTENNA IS EXTERNAL! Now ferrite rod AM antennas are internal (actually IN the radio), but FM antennas are ALWAYS external...i.e. OUTSIDE THE RADIO, whether it's the headphone cord on a walkman, a telescopic whip, rabbit ears, a wire dipole, or external yagi. Every single one of them is external...OUTSIDE THE RADIO. A radio without an antenna input is, imho, DEFECTIVE, because PROPER reception requires proper orientation of the antenna. Those table and clock radios that use their power cords as an antenna (ALSO external, by the way) aren't even trying to decode clean analog stereo (they couldn't without a proper antenna!), much less HD. In fact, I find that what's needed for noise-free analog stereo and for HD is pretty much exactly the same.

A better term for what is being discussed here is "separate antenna," an antenna that is not an integral part of the radio but must be either supplied with it or purchased separately and then be connected to the receiver by the user in order for the receiver to work satisfactorily. The FM "Tee" indoor folded dipole antenna made from 300 ohm twin-lead that comes with some FM tuners is an example of a separate antenna. Another example is the stereo earbud set used with "Walkman"-type portable AM/FM radios, whose wires serve as the FM antenna.

The built-in telescoping FM and Short Wave whip antennas, "rat tail" FM wire antennas, internal FM loops stapled to the inside of the receiver cabinet, internal ferrite loopsticks (for AM), and power cord FM antennas are all integral antennas.

All of my analog FM receivers pick up FM Stereo just fine using only their integral antennas.


-- Black Shire

 

[Mike Walker]

If your radios pick up fm stereo "just fine"...with full quieting with a whip or other built-in antenna, then you live in an urban area. Congratulations. You'd also likely get HD fine with such an antenna.

It's amusing to me, as a longtime audio and radio nerd, that the wire "T" dipoles, for decades just as much "throwaway" items as are the earbuds included with mp3 players to anyone with an ear for quality, are now somehow considered "exotic" or "items only a radio nerd would use". Actually radio nerds are the ones who will throw these crappy things away and use a REAL antenna, as we've always done!

 

[R.F. Burns]

If your radios pick up fm stereo "just fine"...with full quieting with a whip or other built-in antenna, then you live in an urban area. Congratulations. You'd also likely get HD fine with such an antenna.

It's amusing to me, as a longtime audio and radio nerd, that the wire "T" dipoles, for decades just as much "throwaway" items as are the earbuds included with mp3 players to anyone with an ear for quality, are now somehow considered "exotic" or "items only a radio nerd would use". Actually radio nerds are the ones who will throw these crappy things away and use a REAL antenna, as we've always done!

Mike it's obvious that their arguments ra egetting more and more desperate. Next it will be the news that you have to plug the radio in to get it to work. It takes electricity. Oh my goodness....wow!!!

 

[Chuck]

Mike it's obvious that their arguments ra egetting more and more desperate. Next it will be the news that you have to plug the radio in to get it to work. It takes electricity. Oh my goodness....wow!!!

There is nothing desperate in my day. Surely, you guys who admit to being radio-geeks like me have been asked many times by your less-than-technical friends to help them set up or fix their stereo. More often than not you'll find that the owner had no idea that they needed to unfurl the folded dipole or unwrap the rat-tail antenna. Lots of times, the supplied antenna is simply missing because it was thrown out with the packaging, or it was lost the last time they moved. These folks are usually amazed that somehow you managed to get their receiver to "come alive" by simply connecting a piece of wire to the antenna terminal..

Maybe this is not your experience, but it certainly is mine. I can't tell you how many radios I've "fixed" for girlfriends, in-laws, neighbors, aunts, uncles and cousins by simply attaching the antenna. It's a lot.

Getting these people to install an outside antenna, or even buy a higher quality $50-100 indoor antenna is going to be a good trick.

 

[R.F. Burns]

Mike it's obvious that their arguments ra egetting more and more desperate. Next it will be the news that you have to plug the radio in to get it to work. It takes electricity. Oh my goodness....wow!!!

There is nothing desperate in my day. Surely, you guys who admit to being radio-geeks like me have been asked many times by your less-than-technical friends to help them set up or fix their stereo. More often than not you'll find that the owner had no idea that they needed to unfurl the folded dipole or unwrap the rat-tail antenna. Lots of times, the supplied antenna is simply missing because it was thrown out with the packaging, or it was lost the last time they moved. These folks are usually amazed that somehow you managed to get their receiver to "come alive" by simply connecting a piece of wire to the antenna terminal..

Maybe this is not your experience, but it certainly is mine. I can't tell you how many radios I've "fixed" for girlfriends, in-laws, neighbors, aunts, uncles and cousins by simply attaching the antenna. It's a lot.

Getting these people to install an outside antenna, or even buy a higher quality $50-100 indoor antenna is going to be a good trick.

I suppose these peole don't use computers, play stations, television sets, stereo systems, load their Ipods and istall I-tunes, or much of anything by themselves. Using an HD radio (especially one in the car) is simplicity itself. You turn the knob or depress the power button, tune n the station you want and adjust the volume control. If you can't do that you shouldn't be driving a car.

 

[Tom Wells]

Regarding antennas, I guess I'm a geek. Every single radio in the house that we use I have somehow coupled in additional antennas.
I have added pickup loops around ferrite bars,and coupled into the "integral antenna" for FMs.
The old 1930's radios are attached to a huge distributed L-C helix in the attic.
The 390 is coax fed to another attic antenna/outdoor loop.

So I accept that some radios have no antenna at all, or any combination of internal/external.

I can't understand why this is such a contentious issue.

 

[Chuck]

I suppose these peole don't use computers, play stations, television sets, stereo systems, load their Ipods and istall I-tunes, or much of anything by themselves. Using an HD radio (especially one in the car) is simplicity itself. You turn the knob or depress the power button, tune n the station you want and adjust the volume control. If you can't do that you shouldn't be driving a car.

That's assuming that a lot of these radios get into cars. So far it is BMW's for an extra $500, future Jaguar's and Hyundai's, all at an extra charge. Those are all fine cars, but you need to get into Fords, Chevy's Dodges, Hondas and Toyotas to have s significant market share. That may well happen, but so far it hasn't.

In the mean time, you can buy an AM-FM home stereo receiver with Dolby 5.1 an amplifier and lots of other bells and whistles for $150-200 or so. I've even seen them with five speakers and a subwoofer included for that price. Are they any good? They are probably "OK" but nothing to write home about. None-the-less, lots of people buy them. It is a lot of bang for the buck. Further they have recognizable brand names like Sony, Panasonic and Yamaha. Sangean makes great radios, but so far it is not a brand that your average consumer is familiar with.

 

[radiopilot]

Regarding antennas, I guess I'm a geek. Every single radio in the house that we use I have somehow coupled in additional antennas.
I have added pickup loops around ferrite bars,and coupled into the "integral antenna" for FMs.
The old 1930's radios are attached to a huge distributed L-C helix in the attic.
The 390 is coax fed to another attic antenna/outdoor loop.

So I accept that some radios have no antenna at all, or any combination of internal/external.

I can't understand why this is such a contentious issue.

We're radio geeks so of course all or most of our radios/tuners will have some sort of external antennas, I've got square antennas for my FM, Yagi's for my FM DX'g, folded dipoles for my stereo tuners, loop antennas for my AM and long wire for Dx'g on my Grundig radio... people come to my house and see all this equipment and give me the stare like I'm ready to bring Frankenstein back to life... it's what we do as electronics hobbyists.

The average Joe doesn't get it, doesn't understand WHY he needs a dipole, or Yagi, etc.... The most they'll know is that putting up an TV antenna gives them better reception but all that is almost gone unless you live in rural areas and even then most of these isolated communities are getting Direct TV or some sort of satelite TV...

People nowadays just want to buy a radio, plug in the speakers, plug it into the wall and start listening, they don't want to start climbing ladders to install antennas on the roof along with the fact that alot of homeowner communities ban outdoor antennas...

Radiopilot

 

[D7]

I suppose these peole don't use computers, play stations, television sets, stereo systems, load their Ipods and istall I-tunes, or much of anything by themselves. Using an HD radio (especially one in the car) is simplicity itself. You turn the knob or depress the power button, tune n the station you want and adjust the volume control. If you can't do that you shouldn't be driving a car.

Actually they do. Their ipod needs no antenna. Their cell phone needs no 'special' antenna. Even clearwire provides broadband to their computer with no wire at all, and only the trivial built in antenna.

You are confusing 'can't do it', with: 'What... I need to run an antenna! How quaint! Come back to me when you've caught up to our century'.

 

[R.F. Burns]

I suppose these peole don't use computers, play stations, television sets, stereo systems, load their Ipods and istall I-tunes, or much of anything by themselves. Using an HD radio (especially one in the car) is simplicity itself. You turn the knob or depress the power button, tune n the station you want and adjust the volume control. If you can't do that you shouldn't be driving a car.

Actually they do. Their ipod needs no antenna. Their cell phone needs no 'special' antenna. Even clearwire provides broadband to their computer with no wire at all, and only the trivial built in antenna.

You are confusing 'can't do it', with: 'What... I need to run an antenna! How quaint! Come back to me when you've caught up to our century'.

I'll do tyhat when you take a few classes in electronics. Do you know anything about radio and how it works? This isn't a computer or I-pod forum. It's a radio forum to discuss radio. At the frequencies radio transmits at the antennas are relatively large compared with say a cell phone antenna which works in the gigahertz range. I-pods, are not recievers so that's another foolish comment you've made here desperately trying to prove a point using logic that no sane person can follow. The range of your cell phones and routers is much more limited than a radiuo broadcast and one has nothing to do with the other to be honesty. Cell phones are for making phone calls and they are illegal to use in a moving vehicle in NY & NJ without a bluetooth device. Most phones won't do stereo bluetooth at this time and if you had any idea about the exptremely limited range of cell phones which by the way do have antennas but they are small. Here's a link to a site that will explain what antennas are used for and how they are constructed;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dipole_antenna
In the meantime if you aren't interested in radio might I suggest that you are in the wrong forum. Oh by the way inside that plastic antenna on your router is a wire attached to the RF output stage of the router. The wire is covered in plastic.