The Curious Case of KGIG: LPFM jammed by adjacent IBOC

[KB1OKL]

KNCI a CBS California 50,000 watt HD station which is 65 miles away from an LPFM in Salida California just about completely covers the WGIG LPFM signal on it's own turf after KNCI turned up the hash. KGIG is gathering evidence to file an FCC IBOC interference complaint. Brad Johnson a former chief engineer at several Citadel and and Clear Channel stations who is behind the WGIG had this to say:

"I hope some day soon a corporate bean counter at CBS will ask why the company is wasting money broadcasting this signal that only 1% of radios can receive while costing thousands of dollars to maintain," says Brad. "If HD Radio is ever shut off, KGIG will be able to serve most of the county."

read more at:

http://diymedia.net/archive/0812.htm#083112

 

[tomservo]

This might actually attract some attention at the FCC since it involves one of their beloved LPFM stations.

The right thing to do would be for CBS to pay to relocate KGIG's transmitter and/or change frequencies. I'm curious though how the HD signal could be strong enough at 65 miles out on a 50 kW station with a relatively short HAAT to interfere with this little LPFM. Or maybe the LPFM is grossly overstating their coverage area. I know Radio-Locator isn't gospel but there's no way in Hades that tiny signal could in any way theoretically cover all of their county. It doesn't even cover but a tiny sliver of the city of license, Modesto. Perhaps they're trying to pretend to be a blowtorch when all they are is a Bic lighter.

 

[KB1OKL]

This might actually attract some attention at the FCC since it involves one of their beloved LPFM stations.

The right thing to do would be for CBS to pay to relocate KGIG's transmitter and/or change frequencies. I'm curious though how the HD signal could be strong enough at 65 miles out on a 50 kW station with a relatively short HAAT to interfere with this little LPFM. Or maybe the LPFM is grossly overstating their coverage area. I know Radio-Locator isn't gospel but there's no way in Hades that tiny signal could in any way theoretically cover all of their county. It doesn't even cover but a tiny sliver of the city of license, Modesto. Perhaps they're trying to pretend to be a blowtorch when all they are is a Bic lighter.

I would tend to believe them especially since they said it wasn't that bad and didn't complain until KNCI turned up the buzz.

 

[iyiyi]

This might actually attract some attention at the FCC since it involves one of their beloved LPFM stations.

The right thing to do would be for CBS to pay to relocate KGIG's transmitter and/or change frequencies. I'm curious though how the HD signal could be strong enough at 65 miles out on a 50 kW station with a relatively short HAAT to interfere with this little LPFM. Or maybe the LPFM is grossly overstating their coverage area. I know Radio-Locator isn't gospel but there's no way in Hades that tiny signal could in any way theoretically cover all of their county. It doesn't even cover but a tiny sliver of the city of license, Modesto. Perhaps they're trying to pretend to be a blowtorch when all they are is a Bic lighter.

I would tend to believe them especially since they said it wasn't that bad and didn't complain until KNCI turned up the buzz.

OK. CBS decides to take 105.1 dark to protect KGIG. When would you figure KGIG might garner 1% of the audience in their coverage area?

Also ; wouldn't you figure that the 1% HD listeners of 105.1 are more than any possible numbers KGIG could ever get?

-

 

[Chuck]

[OK. CBS decides to take 105.1 dark to protect KGIG. When would you figure KGIG might garner 1% of the audience in their coverage area?
Also ; wouldn't you figure that the 1% HD listeners of 105.1 are more than any possible numbers KGIG could ever get?

I don't know about them, but some LPFM stations have been successful enough to actually show up in Arbitron, which is more than you can say for most HD signals, unless they have an analog translator. If you lived in KGIG's service area (which probably extends well past their protected contour) you might be more interested in hearing them, rather than a loud hissing noise generated by somebody 65 miles away. Of course, LPFM's are considered a secondary service, so they are probably screwed.

 

[tomservo]

OK. CBS decides to take 105.1 dark to protect KGIG. When would you figure KGIG might garner 1% of the audience in their coverage area?

Also ; wouldn't you figure that the 1% HD listeners of 105.1 are more than any possible numbers KGIG could ever get?

-

It depends on KGIG's format and how well they serve their community, I guess. Some LPFMs have decent listenership numbers from what I've gathered, if they're doing something unique and community oriented, or at least providing music not available elsewhere. It's entirely possibly KGIG has more listeners on 100 watts than 105.1 does in HD anywhere in the valley.

I'm curious by what the OP meant by "turn up the hash" - was the station already running HD and completed an upgrade for more power, or did it go from analog only to HD?

 

[nd2023]

1% of the radios are HD radios? Try 0.01%, and fewer are actually in daily use. I could ask 1000 people if they own an HD radio and most of them will not even know what an HD radio is, and there's a high chance that no one will own an HD radio. The people that claim to own an HD radio will actually have a satellite radio and not know the difference.

 

[Chuck]

I believe I actually own seven HD radios. I use two of them to receive distant analog signals. A couple of them crapped out- dead as a doornail - but they are still here. One (a Sangean) is still sealed in the original box, never opened. Why bother?

I'm sure I own more of these radios than most people, but it seems to me that a minus 7 should be factored into that 0.01%. The number of operational radios used to actually receive HD is probably even less. Except in the top 20 markets, HD appears to be stillborn to me.

 

[TheBigA]

The right thing to do would be for CBS to pay to relocate KGIG's transmitter and/or change frequencies.

According to the article, KGIG moved its frequency to the current location knowing that it was going to get interference from KNCI. Engineer Brad Johnson admits this. So that will be a big negative in any FCC complaint. And it absolves CBS from the need to pay for any relocation.

Keep in mind that HD radio is approved by the FCC. It will be interesting to see if a commercial HD station is considered higher in the food chain than a non-commercial LPFM. And the FCC doesn't care how many people own HD radios, so that won't be a factor in their decision. Based on past experience, I actually expect them to simply dismiss the complaint without even considering the data.

 

[Chuck]

Keep in mind that HD radio is approved by the FCC. It will be interesting to see if a commercial HD station is considered higher in the food chain than a non-commercial LPFM. And the FCC doesn't care how many people own HD radios, so that won't be a factor in their decision. Based on past experience, I actually expect them to simply dismiss the complaint without even considering the data.

I think you are right. As I mentioned earlier LPFM is a secondary service.

 

[KB1OKL]

The right thing to do would be for CBS to pay to relocate KGIG's transmitter and/or change frequencies.

According to the article, KGIG moved its frequency to the current location knowing that it was going to get interference from KNCI. Engineer Brad Johnson admits this. So that will be a big negative in any FCC complaint. And it absolves CBS from the need to pay for any relocation.

Keep in mind that HD radio is approved by the FCC. It will be interesting to see if a commercial HD station is considered higher in the food chain than a non-commercial LPFM. And the FCC doesn't care how many people own HD radios, so that won't be a factor in their decision. Based on past experience, I actually expect them to simply dismiss the complaint without even considering the data.

Yes, they knew they would get hashed over but KNCI upped the power AFTER they had moved to that frequency making the LPFM almost unreceivable within it's own contour. Where in the FCC rules does it say that IBOC can cover it's two adjacent frequencies anyway? That's spurious interference in my book and should be treated like pirate radio although pirate radio at least transmits something that is entertaining unlike IBOC which only transmits complete noise on the adjacents.

 

[TheBigA]

Yes, they knew they would get hashed over but KNCI upped the power AFTER they had moved to that frequency making the LPFM almost unreceivable within it's own contour.

The FCC allowed the power increase. In fact, they more than allowed it. They ADVOCATED the power increase, and months after the decision, the head of the mass media bureau was quoted as wondering why more stations hadn't increased power. So this is something the FCC favors, with the support of the Congress.

 

[KB1OKL]

Yes, they knew they would get hashed over but KNCI upped the power AFTER they had moved to that frequency making the LPFM almost unreceivable within it's own contour.

The FCC allowed the power increase. In fact, they more than allowed it. They ADVOCATED the power increase, and months after the decision, the head of the mass media bureau was quoted as wondering why more stations hadn't increased power. So this is something the FCC favors, with the support of the Congress.

You asked why they moved there knowing it was already an IBOC wasteland and I answered your question saying WGIG knew there was IBOC 65 miles away on THEIR frequency, BUT WGIG did not know that KNIC was going increase it's power. Yes it's legal but did the power increase do anything except increase their noisy sidebands? No.

 

[tomservo]

Having read some more responses, you've answered my question as to whether the CBS station broadcast in HD before or not. It did, and this was a power increase.

OK, that changes things IMHO. Even if the LPFM is a secondary service, they shouldn't be subject to IBOC noise from a station on a first adjacent. The CBS station should go back to 1% or whatever, to ensure they don't interfere with a station that's not even on their same frequency.

 

[TheBigA]

The CBS station should go back to 1% or whatever, to ensure they don't interfere with a station that's not even on their same frequency.

Says who?

 

[Savage]

What's "curious" about this situation? From my own (and others') experiences, it's typical.

You're kidding yourself if you think the Commission is going to get involved in this. They set an impossible and preposterous bar for anyone to actually succeed with an HD interference complaint. That's government-speak for, "we wash our hands of this." The FCC has clearly told interference victims vs. HD interferors, "you guys work this out between you. We have no interest in adjudicating these cases." And: "Interference?? We can't hear you......"

Good luck, KGIG....if there's any comfort here, HD is an ice-cold cadaver. About six people who post here plus CBS's dopey engineering managers insist on poking it with a stick fairly regularly, but that's about the extent of interest in HD Radio.

 

[nd2023]

I believe I actually own seven HD radios. I use two of them to receive distant analog signals. A couple of them crapped out- dead as a doornail - but they are still here. One (a Sangean) is still sealed in the original box, never opened. Why bother?

I'm sure I own more of these radios than most people, but it seems to me that a minus 7 should be factored into that 0.01%. The number of operational radios used to actually receive HD is probably even less. Except in the top 20 markets, HD appears to be stillborn to me.

I own 6 HD radios. 3 of them are broken Insignia portables and 1 of them is a working Insignia that I carry around with me all the time. One is a Sony XDRF1HD that I use exclusively for DXing. I don't even use that to listen to the local stations since I would have to rotate the antenna for every station I want to hear. One is a Gigaware HD radio for iPhone that collects dust because the receiver sucks. One is an Insignia Artist Experience HD radio that's also collecting dust because its reception is worse than the regular Insignia, the battery life is terrible, and also there are no stations giving me the Artist Experience. The HD reception is terrible in my area, with so many dropouts. But that's a good thing because I'm a DXer.

My ex-girlfriend got an HD radio from me for Christmas. I would say that she never uses it. Obviously it failed to put a buzz in our relationship since she's now my ex-girlfriend.

 

[diymedia]

Yes, they knew they would get hashed over but KNCI upped the power AFTER they had moved to that frequency making the LPFM almost unreceivable within it's own contour. Where in the FCC rules does it say that IBOC can cover it's two adjacent frequencies anyway? That's spurious interference in my book and should be treated like pirate radio although pirate radio at least transmits something that is entertaining unlike IBOC which only transmits complete noise on the adjacents.

It is a dilemma, and the facts aren't completely clear. According to the FCC, KNCI filed for its power increase in April of 2011 - a good year before KGIG-LP made its move. It was kind of a devil's choice - deal with being sandwiched between two full-power analogs on 106.1 or risk HD interference on 104.9.

Why the problem appeared this summer is the head-scratcher. KNCI's engineers say they're running -14 dBc on both sidebands, not doing anything asymmetrical. KNCI's FM-HD tx is a Nautel model (specifics unknown).

Coalition or not, the FCC's still going to require a massive burden of proof before it'll even entertain looking at the situation. KNCI's stance is basically, "well, our sidebands are within the mask, so technically there's no problem." It did give Brad some cheap-o single-bay CP antenna and told him to try installing that. (No model info or whatnot, so Brad's just holding onto it for now.)

BTW, what's the status of KATY's interference complaint against KTRH?

 

[DaveBayArea]

I'm curious by what the OP meant by "turn up the hash" - was the station already running HD and completed an upgrade for more power, or did it go from analog only to HD?

KNCI has been running HD for many years, so I suspect they did a power increase.

Dave B.

 

[jhardis]

KNCI's stance is basically, "well, our sidebands are within the mask, so technically there's no problem."

I suppose that this depends on which "mask" to which they're referring -- the FCC's mask in § 73.317 of the rules, or the iBiquity mask in NRSC-5. The former is an integral mask measured in dBc (the limit being -25 dBc in the frequencies of interest), the latter is a differential mask measured in dBc/kHz. The former measures attenuated power; the latter measures power spectral density.

I've argued on the docket that IBOC proponents are conflating the two even though this is technically incorrect. When a station has -14 dBc IBOC sidebands, that's 11 dBc greater than the FCC mask.

The arguments about this are on the IBOC docket at the FCC, MM 99-325, from December 19, 2011 to January 29, 2012. Needless to say, both iBiquity and the "Joint Parties" disagree with me -- though interestingly, for entirely different reasons. The FCC has yet to make a call on it.

- Jonathan