The Day the AM Band Died

[SUPERCASTER]

What a lot of people seem to be missing here is not the problem of IBOC hash interfering with distant skywave signals but the larger, more important problem of IBOC hash from distant stations interfering with local stations. There are a lot of 50 kW flamethrowers on first or second adjacent channels to regional stations. For example, if WBBM, a 50 kW station on 780 kHz in Chicago goes IBOC, it will destroy reception of regional stations on 790 kHz at night. A worse situation is faced by local stations on 1490 kHz, adjacent to the clear channel of 1500 kHz occupied by such 50 kW stations as WTWP in Washington, DC and KSTP in St. Paul, MN.

Daytime interference from AM IBOC stations is bad enough. In Northeastern Pennsylvania, two local stations receive lots of IBOC interference from stations 20 kHz away from their frequencies. WNAK, 730 kHz in Nanticoke, PA, receives annoying IBOC hiss from WOR (710 kHz, New York City) just 15 miles east of the WNAK transmitter site. WAZL, 1490 kHz in Hazleton, PA receives harmful interference from WYHM, a 5 kW station on 1470 kHz in Allentown, PA. Allentown is approximately 40 miles from Hazleton and the interference can be heard plainly about 10 miles from the WAZL transmitter. Both WNAK and WAZL are 1 kW daytime. WAZL is 1 kW at night, while WNAK is 12 watts after local sunset...just enough to cover its city of license. That coverage will be totally destroyed by IBOC hash from WOR, made worse if WGN (720 kHz, Chicago) goes IBOC.

Another problem ignored by the FCC is pattern bandwidth. Many AM directional arrays have nice, deep nulls on the center carrier frequency. But, as one goes farther from that frequency, the null becomes shallow or disappears. The pattern null distortion heard on many stations as one drives through a null is an example of this, as the carrier nulls out but the sidebands do not null well. It sounds like monkey chatter. The IBOC hiss may not be nulled at all 15-20 kHz from the carrier frequency for which the array was designed.

I visualize a nighttime AM broadcast band that sounds like the high end of the 40 meter amateur band at the height of the Cold War. At that time, the Russians ran many "white noise" jammers on that band. Those sounded a lot like today's IBOC hiss. Hey, if IBOC dies the quick death it deserves to, maybe the equipment manufacturers could sell the leftover AM IBOC exciters and transmitters to the Cubans through a Canadian or Mexican subsidiary. They would make great jamming transmitters for a totalitarian government that doesn't want its citizens listening to foreign stations!

The Canadians and Mexicans may lodge a formal protest to the FCC and the State Department, as both countries fear harmful interference to their AM stations from IBOC hiss propagated via skywave from U.S. stations. Many U.S. clear channels are first adjacents to Canadian and Mexican clears.

As for AM skywave listening, it is not the exclusive province of DX'ers and hobbyists. Some years ago, when Hurricane Hugo knocked most local AM, FM, and TV stations off the air in the Carolinas, people got news and information from stations propagated via skywave, such as WGN and WLS (Chicago), WLAC and WSM (Nashville), and WCBS, WABC, and WOR (New York). While satellite radio offers nationwide coverage, at least you don't have to pay to listen to AM skywave.

We can only hope that iBiquity gets sued into bankruptcy by AM broadcasters whose primary, local signals are destroyed by IBOC hash extending up to 15-20 kHz from the hybrid digital station's carrier. This fiasco, like the impending digital television fiasco caused by the United States adopting an inferior transmission standard, is what we can expect from a government where lobbyists hold sway and from an FCC where decisions on technical standards are made by attorneys, rather than by engineers.

Well said.
You have my vote as a commissioner for whatever replaces the FCC if the public ever catches on to the fact that the commission is in the pocket of the broadcast conglomerates and no longer is a watchdog protecting the people's airwaves.

 

[Tom Wells]

I visualize a nighttime AM broadcast band that sounds like the high end of the 40 meter amateur band at the height of the Cold War. At that time, the Russians ran many "white noise" jammers on that band. Those sounded a lot like today's IBOC hiss. Hey, if IBOC dies the quick death it deserves to, maybe the equipment manufacturers could sell the leftover AM IBOC exciters and transmitters to the Cubans through a Canadian or Mexican subsidiary. They would make great jamming transmitters for a totalitarian government that doesn't want its citizens listening to foreign stations!

Well said.
You have my vote as a commissioner for whatever replaces the FCC if the public ever catches on to the fact that the commission is in the pocket of the broadcast conglomerates and no longer is a watchdog protecting the people's airwaves.

AM MW is the last media which can serve large areas directly autonomously.
Such stations have always been worrisome to corrupt governments, as they might spill the truth.
They might even make citizens in other areas concerned enough to come help, as with disaster aid, or revolutionary aid.

Mr Hitler's solution was a radio so deaf, (3 tubes, I think), that you could only hear the Reich's numerous local stations.

Other radios were simply confiscated. This ensured that the people would hear the correct opinions and postions.

Our new approach involves deaf radios using jamming as modulation.
We don't need to confiscate your radio, we have broken it for you, in order to better control your radio choices.

You now have NO CHOICE. Do not listen try to find out what's happening over there. We'll tell you if you need to know.

THESE are your info-tainment providers, rely on them. There's a new HD-2 stream with "nasty stuff" by subscription.
Click here to make your HD radio RACE with torrid graphic x-rated stories that make you sore just to hear them!


New World Order on your radio! Tell me you didn't know who's really behind this.

"You damn right we're gonna tell you who you can listen to."
(future presidental words)

 

[R.F. Burns]

I visualize a nighttime AM broadcast band that sounds like the high end of the 40 meter amateur band at the height of the Cold War. At that time, the Russians ran many "white noise" jammers on that band. Those sounded a lot like today's IBOC hiss. Hey, if IBOC dies the quick death it deserves to, maybe the equipment manufacturers could sell the leftover AM IBOC exciters and transmitters to the Cubans through a Canadian or Mexican subsidiary. They would make great jamming transmitters for a totalitarian government that doesn't want its citizens listening to foreign stations!

Well said.
You have my vote as a commissioner for whatever replaces the FCC if the public ever catches on to the fact that the commission is in the pocket of the broadcast conglomerates and no longer is a watchdog protecting the people's airwaves.

AM MW is the last media which can serve large areas directly autonomously.
Such stations have always been worrisome to corrupt governments, as they might spill the truth.
They might even make citizens in other areas concerned enough to come help, as with disaster aid, or revolutionary aid.

Mr Hitler's solution was a radio so deaf, (3 tubes, I think), that you could only hear the Reich's numerous local stations.

Other radios were simply confiscated. This ensured that the people would hear the correct opinions and postions.

Our new approach involves deaf radios using jamming as modulation.
We don't need to confiscate your radio, we have broken it for you, in order to better control your radio choices.

You now have NO CHOICE. Do not listen try to find out what's happening over there. We'll tell you if you need to know.

THESE are your info-tainment providers, rely on them. There's a new HD-2 stream with "nasty stuff" by subscription.
Click here to make your HD radio RACE with torrid graphic x-rated stories that make you sore just to hear them!


New World Order on your radio! Tell me you didn't know who's really behind this.

"You damn right we're gonna tell you who you can listen to."
(future presidental words)

Now you're bringing Hitler into this? Hey as an extra class amateur licensee I am upset that CW is no longer part of the testing procedure and that CW is no longer being monitored by some of our government agencies. CW is the most reliable method of communications but unfortunately it looks like its day as a communications method (other than by us hams) is over. That's progress, and AM radio as we know it is going the way of CW. Younger peopole do not listen t most of the AM radio stations. That's why there's so much talk on the AM BCB now. No one wants to listen to music on AM unless they have no choice.

 

[Tom Wells]

Okay even I cringe at hauling out Mr Hitler as it usually signifies the "worst case scenario".
But the facts here regarding information restriction makes this comparison appropriate.

 

[R.F. Burns]

Okay even I cringe at hauling out Mr Hitler as it usually signifies the "worst case scenario".
But the facts here regarding information restriction makes this comparison appropriate.

If you knew people who's families were wiped off the face of the earth by Hitler's regime you'd never use him as an example to describe anything as unimportant as this issue is. Iboc is now law as far as which digital system wasa accepted for use in the United States. Let's see what happens over the next 6 months. If you or others cand make claims and not back them up with facts then your posts are suspect.

 

[Tom Wells]

I knew people with the tatoos from the concentration camps, thank you.
A fine man I bought auto parts from for many years.
My family has branches who are jewish, mormon and quaker.
So I do feel free to use an important example of how a totalitarian state restricts information by autonomous voices.

I feel the comparison regarding the restriction of RF access is valid.
Don't suggest shortwave for obvious reasons. We are discussing BROADCAST bands, right?
I am sorry such a despicable depot made such a handy reference.
And don't make me bring up waht the Nazis did to Grampa Irving and Grandma Janet's families, OK?

 

[davideduardo]

I knew people with the tatoos from the concentration camps, thank you.

I think this has gone too far already. Any comparison of a system that is intended to save a dying band that barely gets 7% of the poeple under 35 to listen even once a month with a totalitarian system intended to dominate a nation and a continent is absurd and offensive to those who died in the process.

HD radoi is a private enterprise solution for the death of AM and the competition of digital media to FM. It is not "new think" and does not restrict freedom of thought... not with 14,000 radio stations in the country.

I invoke Godwon's Law. Anyone who brings up Hitler or Nazis in an argument has lost.

 

[radiopilot]

I knew people with the tatoos from the concentration camps, thank you.

I think this has gone too far already. Any comparison of a system that is intended to save a dying band that barely gets 7% of the poeple under 35 to listen even once a month with a totalitarian system intended to dominate a nation and a continent is absurd and offensive to those who died in the process.

HD radoi is a private enterprise solution for the death of AM and the competition of digital media to FM. It is not "new think" and does not restrict freedom of thought... not with 14,000 radio stations in the country.

I invoke Godwon's Law. Anyone who brings up Hitler or Nazis in an argument has lost.

Then in that case the U.S. has a long history of invoking Godwon's law since the U.S. government has bought up this argument on many many occasions...

Radiopilot

 

[PocketRadio]

I knew people with the tatoos from the concentration camps, thank you.

I think this has gone too far already. Any comparison of a system that is intended to save a dying band that barely gets 7% of the poeple under 35 to listen even once a month with a totalitarian system intended to dominate a nation and a continent is absurd and offensive to those who died in the process.

HD radoi is a private enterprise solution for the death of AM and the competition of digital media to FM. It is not "new think" and does not restrict freedom of thought... not with 14,000 radio stations in the country.

I invoke Godwon's Law. Anyone who brings up Hitler or Nazis in an argument has lost.

Are you just out to doom the AM Band ? According to the Arbitron ratings:

http://www.arbitron.com/home/ratings.htm

many news/talk/sports 50kw AMs are rated #1 in their markets, and many are in the top 5. With the anticipated interference of nighttime AM-HD, HD this will only hasten the death, according to you, of the AM band.

 

[R.F. Burns]

I knew people with the tatoos from the concentration camps, thank you.

I think this has gone too far already. Any comparison of a system that is intended to save a dying band that barely gets 7% of the poeple under 35 to listen even once a month with a totalitarian system intended to dominate a nation and a continent is absurd and offensive to those who died in the process.

HD radoi is a private enterprise solution for the death of AM and the competition of digital media to FM. It is not "new think" and does not restrict freedom of thought... not with 14,000 radio stations in the country.

I invoke Godwon's Law. Anyone who brings up Hitler or Nazis in an argument has lost.

Are you just out to doom the AM Band ? According to the Arbitron ratings:

http://www.arbitron.com/home/ratings.htm

many news/talk/sports 50kw AMs are rated #1 in their markets, and many are in the top 5. With the anticipated interference of nighttime AM-HD, HD this will only hasten the death, according to you, of the AM band.

If you worked in teh industry you would know that 12+ numbers alone mean little. If the station skews 40+, then forget trying to get agencies to buy advertising on it. The agencies don't want older listeners. That's why Oldies and other older skewing formats, like "standards" & beautiful music are not available in most major markets any longer. Like it or not that is the reality of the business in 2007.

 

[awj223]

If you worked in teh industry you would know that 12+ numbers alone mean little. If the station skews 40+, then forget trying to get agencies to buy advertising on it. The agencies don't want older listeners. That's why Oldies and other older skewing formats, like "standards" & beautiful music are not available in most major markets any longer. Like it or not that is the reality of the business in 2007.

The industry is reinforcing a self-fulfilling prophecy. When you program formats that appeal to 40+, then surprise!, you get a 40+ skewed audience. For the most part, talk does not interest younger listeners, although I do maybe a couple hours of talk listening a week. However, you've obviously never listened to the AM stations I listen to, that many people in my age group listen to. It's not a rinky dink high school station either, it's a 50kW flamethrower. Some ads I've heard on this station are car dealerships, Metro PCS (one of those wireless companies with very limited coverage but unlimited minutes popular with teens, similar to Cricket), beer (with reminders to try to discourage underage drinking), and junk food. Contests for Slingboxes and pocket hard drives? I mean, you can tell how old the audience is when they have an interactive talk show after their play-by-play broadcasts end and you hear kids with their parents in the background, as well as many people who sound like they're in their teens and 20s. Yeah, that really sounds like a station that's skewing 40+ to me. I'd say their future is doomed because their audience is too old. :

 

[davideduardo]

Are you just out to doom the AM Band ? According to the Arbitron ratings:

http://www.arbitron.com/home/ratings.htm

many news/talk/sports 50kw AMs are rated #1 in their markets, and many are in the top 5. With the anticipated interference of nighttime AM-HD, HD this will only hasten the death, according to you, of the AM band.

There is a reason Arbitron gives away the 12+ data... it is meaningless and useless for sales purposes. Ad buys are made on some set of ages between 18 and 54.

Examole... WGN Chicago is #2 in 12+ ratings, but is not in the top 20 in 25-54.

Most news/talk stations have over half their audience over 55... and that segment is not salable. And this is why news/talk is moving to FM of recent, where younger listeners will pay attention to it.

 

[R.F. Burns]

If you worked in teh industry you would know that 12+ numbers alone mean little. If the station skews 40+, then forget trying to get agencies to buy advertising on it. The agencies don't want older listeners. That's why Oldies and other older skewing formats, like "standards" & beautiful music are not available in most major markets any longer. Like it or not that is the reality of the business in 2007.

The industry is reinforcing a self-fulfilling prophecy. When you program formats that appeal to 40+, then surprise!, you get a 40+ skewed audience. For the most part, talk does not interest younger listeners, although I do maybe a couple hours of talk listening a week. However, you've obviously never listened to the AM stations I listen to, that many people in my age group listen to. It's not a rinky dink high school station either, it's a 50kW flamethrower. Some ads I've heard on this station are car dealerships, Metro PCS (one of those wireless companies with very limited coverage but unlimited minutes popular with teens, similar to Cricket), beer (with reminders to try to discourage underage drinking), and junk food. Contests for Slingboxes and pocket hard drives? I mean, you can tell how old the audience is when they have an interactive talk show after their play-by-play broadcasts end and you hear kids with their parents in the background, as well as many people who sound like they're in their teens and 20s. Yeah, that really sounds like a station that's skewing 40+ to me. I'd say their future is doomed because their audience is too old. :

How do you explain that Metal (a format available nowhere else in the market) AM facility which had maybe 3 listeners. now this was 15 or 20 years ago, but that's what a format which attracts a younger audience gets on AM radio. Big market stations need agency sales. They don't survive on mom and pop sales alone. You've heard from other broadcasters in here. AM is dying and no matter what you think especially with better sounding alternatives out there today, no one in their 20's listens to AM radio and I do mean NO ONE.

 

[davideduardo]

The industry is reinforcing a self-fulfilling prophecy. When you program formats that appeal to 40+, then surprise!, you get a 40+ skewed audience. For the most part, talk does not interest younger listeners, although I do maybe a couple hours of talk listening a week. However, you've obviously never listened to the AM stations I listen to, that many people in my age group listen to. It's not a rinky dink high school station either, it's a 50kW flamethrower. Some ads I've heard on this station are car dealerships, Metro PCS (one of those wireless companies with very limited coverage but unlimited minutes popular with teens, similar to Cricket), beer (with reminders to try to discourage underage drinking), and junk food. Contests for Slingboxes and pocket hard drives? I mean, you can tell how old the audience is when they have an interactive talk show after their play-by-play broadcasts end and you hear kids with their parents in the background, as well as many people who sound like they're in their teens and 20s. Yeah, that really sounds like a station that's skewing 40+ to me. I'd say their future is doomed because their audience is too old. :

Of course, you conveninetly fail to metion what station this is... is it on this planet?

In any case, talk on AM gets very little 35-54, a prime sales demo. It gets 55+.

The same format, move to FM, gets more than double the 25-54 listening. Because it is FM. Because it sounds better.

 

[Kelly]

If you worked in teh industry you would know that 12+ numbers alone mean little. If the station skews 40+, then forget trying to get agencies to buy advertising on it. The agencies don't want older listeners. That's why Oldies and other older skewing formats, like "standards" & beautiful music are not available in most major markets any longer. Like it or not that is the reality of the business in 2007.

The industry is reinforcing a self-fulfilling prophecy. When you program formats that appeal to 40+, then surprise!, you get a 40+ skewed audience. For the most part, talk does not interest younger listeners, although I do maybe a couple hours of talk listening a week. However, you've obviously never listened to the AM stations I listen to, that many people in my age group listen to. It's not a rinky dink high school station either, it's a 50kW flamethrower. Some ads I've heard on this station are car dealerships, Metro PCS (one of those wireless companies with very limited coverage but unlimited minutes popular with teens, similar to Cricket), beer (with reminders to try to discourage underage drinking), and junk food. Contests for Slingboxes and pocket hard drives? I mean, you can tell how old the audience is when they have an interactive talk show after their play-by-play broadcasts end and you hear kids with their parents in the background, as well as many people who sound like they're in their teens and 20s. Yeah, that really sounds like a station that's skewing 40+ to me. I'd say their future is doomed because their audience is too old. :

How do you explain that Metal (a format available nowhere else in the market) AM facility which had maybe 3 listeners. now this was 15 or 20 years ago, but that's what a format which attracts a younger audience gets on AM radio. Big market stations need agency sales. They don't survive on mom and pop sales alone. You've heard from other broadcasters in here. AM is dying and no matter what you think especially with better sounding alternatives out there today, no one in their 20's listens to AM radio and I do mean NO ONE.

You know as much as it pains me, you're right. Recently someone told made the comment: "Everytime you see a funeral procession, AM has lost another listener". Hopefully the next step for the Medium Wave band will be movement toward full 100% digital modulation rather than hybrid.

Always being one to make lemonade out of lemons, I sort of look forward to seeing what propagation does with the digital modulation. In practice, and with future receiver improvments, I'm willing to be that DXing will be more interesting than with analog.

FM IBOC is a yawner to me, but digital modulation on AM has some promise.

 

[Tom Wells]

Regarding the multiple opportunities you guys have had to answer the real question, I must conclude you have no
good answer and the truth is as I have stated, asked, and requested you to confirm or deny.

Doesn't the the unrestricted, full, legal NRSC analog mask in fact cause repeated crashes of your bitstream?

And to permit the HD to work, the host must brickwall AM analog to 5 khz?

Confirm, deny, but do not obfuscate or introduce matter extraneous to this very direct question.
Do not whistle and talk about ratings, markets, and other pleasantries.
You have fewer and fewer chances to retain your credibility as professionals, don't make a silly answer, now.

If this were a chess game, which I don't play, you'd be in "retreat and losing" mode by your responses thus far.

 

[PocketRadio]

I mean, you can tell how old the audience is when they have an interactive talk show after their play-by-play broadcasts end and you hear kids with their parents in the background, as well as many people who sound like they're in their teens and 20s. Yeah, that really sounds like a station that's skewing 40+ to me. I'd say their future is doomed because their audience is too old. :

When I listen to many DX nighttime AM talk shows, there is no set age limit for callers - I hear all sorts of different age groups. I don't want to derail the discussion, but it is related to "The Day the AM Band Died" - if I am equal-distant between two 50kw AM-HD stations, say 400 miles at 800 and 810 khz, should I be more concerned with their nighttime IBOC signals cancelling/interfering each other out, by the time the skywaves arrive, or should I be more concerned with a nearby 50kw AM-HD station on an adjacent-channel, interfering with the skywaves, as they arrive ? Anyone ?

 

[awj223]

Of course, you conveninetly fail to metion what station this is... is it on this planet?


The same format, move to FM, gets more than double the 25-54 listening. Because it is FM. Because it sounds better.

KNBR 680 AM - San Francisco, CA. This is part of our planet last time I checked. I don't know what the audience breakdown by age looks like, but they are certainly skewing younger on the ads.

There's some treble missing from the broadcasters' voices and you can't hear the higher tones in the background at the stadium because it's on AM. So what, nobody cares. Move to FM? Wahaha, yeah right. Even the most powerful FMs have severe problems with static when you're driving major freeways through the hills. 125 kW KIOI FM needs a translator just 30 miles from its main facility. No FM is going to get the kind of coverage KNBR has even during the day unless they take the TV Marti approach and tether their transmitter on an aerostat balloon 10,000 feet above San Francisco. Not to mention that I doubt they'd get many more listeners on FM. Most people who want to listen to this content already listen anyway.

 

[R.F. Burns]

Regarding the multiple opportunities you guys have had to answer the real question, I must conclude you have no
good answer and the truth is as I have stated, asked, and requested you to confirm or deny.

Doesn't the the unrestricted, full, legal NRSC analog mask in fact cause repeated crashes of your bitstream?

And to permit the HD to work, the host must brickwall AM analog to 5 khz?

Confirm, deny, but do not obfuscate or introduce matter extraneous to this very direct question.
Do not whistle and talk about ratings, markets, and other pleasantries.
You have fewer and fewer chances to retain your credibility as professionals, don't make a silly answer, now.

If this were a chess game, which I don't play, you'd be in "retreat and losing" mode by your responses thus far.

We may be losing in your world but in the real world IBOC has the FCC's permisson to operate 24/7. You might not like our answers but that doesn't mean they are wrong. The brickwalled 5 K audio is really no problem because most or AM radio is talk and most radios don't pass audio betond 5 Khz on the AM band. I have a Sony SRF42 Amax stereo AM radio and with that radio when I tune in a IBOC station I don't hear any trace of the IBOC exciter. Face it, like it or not, you are wasting your time here. IBOC is legal for AM & FM 24/7. D-Cam and FMXtra have basically been tossed aside. As to crashes in the bit stream I already mentioned that I don't work at the network level so I don't deal with IBOC on any basis other than as a program provider to IBOC stations (we have been switching over to linear T's as opposed to using compression for our programs) and traditional terrestrial radio as well as XM & Sirius who also take some of our programing) I am a listener however and as of this date I have had no problem with IBOC on AM. the bitstream on AM stations in NY haven't crashed due to the NRSC mask. Other issues have arisen and been addressed during the experimental period but lately the AM Ibocs have been very reliable.

 

[awj223]

oops, hit quote instead of modify and can't figure out how to delete. moderator please delete this post.