The Day the AM Band Died

[R.F. Burns]

Of course, you conveninetly fail to metion what station this is... is it on this planet?


The same format, move to FM, gets more than double the 25-54 listening. Because it is FM. Because it sounds better.

KNBR 680 AM - San Francisco, CA. This is part of our planet last time I checked. I don't know what the audience breakdown by age looks like, but they are certainly skewing younger on the ads.

There's some treble missing from the broadcasters' voices and you can't hear the higher tones in the background at the stadium because it's on AM. So what, nobody cares. Move to FM? Wahaha, yeah right. Even the most powerful FMs have severe problems with static when you're driving major freeways through the hills. 125 kW KIOI FM needs a translator just 30 miles from its main facility. No FM is going to get the kind of coverage KNBR has even during the day unless they take the TV Marti approach and tether their transmitter on an aerostat balloon 10,000 feet above San Francisco. Not to mention that I doubt they'd get many more listeners on FM. Most people who want to listen to this content already listen anyway.

What would be interesting would be to see how much gross income KNBR AM made in the market as opposed to the FM competition. In NYC WFAN, WINS and WCBS AM do well billing wise but all three are very expensive to operate. WABC for instance is always top 10, 12+ but they are out of the top 15 income wise. They don't make anywhere near what WPLJ the FM earns and WPLJ has nowhere near WABC's overall audience numbers.

 

[Tom Wells]

Mr Burns,
My, you are deflective. Of course the 5khz works with your HD.
I asked you to admit it won't work with 9 khz.

Stop saying no problem, because it really does sound defensive.

If you cannot answer accurately and authoratatively, say so, it is no shame. But do investigate and consult.
I often must do so. Use the reference material, use your education. Then tell us what you learned.
Do I need to figure out another way to state the question?

Continuous citing of "legality" is also in poor taste, and ill serves your image.

 

[EasyPeazy]

Mr Burns,
My, you are deflective. Of course the 5khz works with your HD.
I asked you to admit it won't work with 9 khz.

Stop saying no problem, because it really does sound defensive.

If you cannot answer accurately and authoratatively, say so, it is no shame. But do investigate and consult.
I often must do so. Use the reference material, use your education. Then tell us what you learned.
Do I need to figure out another way to state the question?

Continuous citing of "legality" is also in poor taste, and ill serves your image.

Deflective? Who brought Hitler into the argument? It certainly wasn't Mr. Burns.

 

[Tom Wells]

Mr Burns,
My, you are deflective. Of course the 5khz works with your HD.
I asked you to admit it won't work with 9 khz.

Stop saying no problem, because it really does sound defensive.

If you cannot answer accurately and authoratatively, say so, it is no shame. But do investigate and consult.
I often must do so. Use the reference material, use your education. Then tell us what you learned.
Do I need to figure out another way to state the question?

Continuous citing of "legality" is also in poor taste, and ill serves your image.

Deflective? Who brought Hitler into the argument? It certainly wasn't Mr. Burns.

My point in perfect keeping with a proper reference to the issue at hand in the thread.

Need we define what deflection is? I make a genuine reference, and your responses still lack something you can easily give:

simple honesty.

 

[Chuck]

Enquiring minds want to know. Does IBOC work on AM if they keep 9 KHz restrictions on their analog signal? Must the audio be limited to 5-6 KHz?

 

[davideduardo]

KNBR 680 AM - San Francisco, CA. This is part of our planet last time I checked. I don't know what the audience breakdown by age looks like, but they are certainly skewing younger on the ads.

There's some treble missing from the broadcasters' voices and you can't hear the higher tones in the background at the stadium because it's on AM. So what, nobody cares. Move to FM? Wahaha, yeah right. Even the most powerful FMs have severe problems with static when you're driving major freeways through the hills. 125 kW KIOI FM needs a translator just 30 miles from its main facility. No FM is going to get the kind of coverage KNBR has even during the day unless they take the TV Marti approach and tether their transmitter on an aerostat balloon 10,000 feet above San Francisco. Not to mention that I doubt they'd get many more listeners on FM. Most people who want to listen to this content already listen anyway.

KNBR's revenue has declined from $43 million 6 years ago to $28 million last year. It's audience is now 45% over age 55. They will do well for some years to come, but the fact that people under 45 don't like to listen to AM hurts them badly. Many more people would listen to sports radio or any talk format if it were on FM.

I have never heard an FM in San Francisco have a static problem, and we have 5 of those critters. I have heard them with multipath problems... and HD is far more resistent to multipath than analog FM.

FMs have translators because FM, like TV, is line of sight. So shadows are filled with boosters (if on the same channel) or translators (on a different channel).

 

[Kelly]

Regarding the multiple opportunities you guys have had to answer the real question, I must conclude you have no
good answer and the truth is as I have stated, asked, and requested you to confirm or deny.

Doesn't the the unrestricted, full, legal NRSC analog mask in fact cause repeated crashes of your bitstream?

And to permit the HD to work, the host must brickwall AM analog to 5 khz?

Confirm, deny, but do not obfuscate or introduce matter extraneous to this very direct question.
Do not whistle and talk about ratings, markets, and other pleasantries.
You have fewer and fewer chances to retain your credibility as professionals, don't make a silly answer, now.

If this were a chess game, which I don't play, you'd be in "retreat and losing" mode by your responses thus far.

Not quite sure why you're posting the question to this group, but having some working knowledge in both AM and FM IBOC systems. I'll attempt to answer your questions to the best of my ability...
"Doesn't the the unrestricted, full, legal NRSC analog mask in fact cause repeated crashes of your bitstream?" Well I'm not sure how a filter would cause "crashes" in a bitstream, but essentially the answer is no. The NRSC mask filters do not interfere with the bandwidth as designed, but a poor antenna system or overall system performance as it relates to bandwidth will cause decreased performance.

"And to permit the HD to work, the host must brickwall AM analog to 5 khz?" I'm not sure what you mean by "The host", but yes, the analog audio must be limited to 5kHz to provide enough room in the sidebands.

"Confirm, deny, but do not obfuscate or introduce matter extraneous to this very direct question.
Do not whistle and talk about ratings, markets, and other pleasantries.
You have fewer and fewer chances to retain your credibility as professionals, don't make a silly answer, now." Well first of all Tom, you aren't in any position to tell me or critique what I can, or cannot post, nor do I need to defend my 30+ years in the technical side of broadcasting..Radio and TV. Acting like some hot-head and being arrogant does little to further an adult discussion. If you're upset about the Commissions ruling I'm sorry Tom, but that's the way things go.

 

[awj223]

KNBR's revenue has declined from $43 million 6 years ago to $28 million last year. It's audience is now 45% over age 55. They will do well for some years to come, but the fact that people under 45 don't like to listen to AM hurts them badly. Many more people would listen to sports radio or any talk format if it were on FM.

I have never heard an FM in San Francisco have a static problem, and we have 5 of those critters. I have heard them with multipath problems... and HD is far more resistent to multipath than analog FM.

FMs have translators because FM, like TV, is line of sight. So shadows are filled with boosters (if on the same channel) or translators (on a different channel).

Is that total revenue from sales before expenditures? What was the revenue like back in 1990-1996? The Giants' record in the early to mid 90's is much more similar to their record recently than the times 6 years ago. Recall that between 1997-2003, the Giants made the playoffs 4 times, placed first in the NL west 3 times, and went to the World Series in 2002. They haven't placed above 3rd in the NL west in the past 2 seasons. The Warriors haven't done that well recently either. KNBR also now carries the 49ers games, who have gone 2-14, 4-12, and 7-9 the past 3 seasons. That's got to have an effect on listening.

 

[4dude]

Enquiring minds want to know. Does IBOC work on AM if they keep 9 KHz restrictions on their analog signal? Must the audio be limited to 5-6 KHz?

Yes sounds like crap i know.......

 

[4dude]

Very good site!!

http://www.etherzone.com/2007/zecc032007.shtml

 

[R.F. Burns]

Re: Very good site!!

http://www.etherzone.com/2007/zecc032007.shtml

Oh another link and frm someone with an axe to grind and filled with lies about how all existing radios will be worthless. What technical thesis is this based on? Oh, yes for the mega millions of Americans (and its neighbors) who live for hearing one more split before they pass on, Iboc will ruin the hobby, not just for you but for your children and your childrens, children. Oh the humanity!!

 

[Kelly]

You know, I'm sympathetic to the select few who are concerned about the interference with their hobby of Medium Wave band DXing. But honestly folks, maybe it's time to move on and try making the best of the new modulation. Do the vast majority of what's left of AM listeners care that Rush Limbaugh's voice is limited to 5kHz? The answer is no. Do they care that potentially they could hear Rush's voice without a putting up with the noisy "pole hog" or noisy florescent light interfering? You bet.

Now it's time to educate ourselves and the listeners of the advantages that the digital modulation can provide, with the idea that stations hopefully will start the migration to full digital modulation. Whether you believe it or not, AM now stands for Antique Modulation.

 

[PocketRadio]

You know, I'm sympathetic to the select few who are concerned about the interference with their hobby of Medium Wave band DXing. But honestly folks, maybe it's time to move on and try making the best of the new modulation. Do the vast majority of what's left of AM listeners care that Rush Limbaugh's voice is limited to 5kHz? The answer is no. Do they care that potentially they could hear Rush's voice without a putting up with the noisy "pole hog" or noisy florescent light interfering? You bet.

Now it's time to educate ourselves and the listeners of the advantages that the digital modulation can provide, with the idea that stations hopefully will start the migration to full digital modulation. Whether you believe it or not, AM now stands for Antique Modulation.

Receiving fringe-area signals is not considered DXing - IBOC has surely seen to cutting off those listeners. What about all the Mid-Westerners, cross-county truckers, disaster victims, DX'ers, etc, that depend on receiving distant signals ? IBOC is far from a "done deal", as the FCC has left it up to the marketplace to decide - consumers have already been voting, with closed wallets. I think, you fail to realize that when all these out-of-protected-contour listeners start throwing-in-the-towel on listening to radio, and when the AM band is nothing but a sea of hash, station owners are going to get a rude-wakeup-call ! As we have seen, consumers are not interested in buying expensive new HD radios, just to receive Rush in stereo, without the pops, crackles, and hisses - and of course, the downside to HD-AM is that half of the listeners will be lost to IBLOCK. Do you recall the days of failed AM Stereo of the 1980's ?

 

[Kelly]

You know, I'm sympathetic to the select few who are concerned about the interference with their hobby of Medium Wave band DXing. But honestly folks, maybe it's time to move on and try making the best of the new modulation. Do the vast majority of what's left of AM listeners care that Rush Limbaugh's voice is limited to 5kHz? The answer is no. Do they care that potentially they could hear Rush's voice without a putting up with the noisy "pole hog" or noisy florescent light interfering? You bet.

Now it's time to educate ourselves and the listeners of the advantages that the digital modulation can provide, with the idea that stations hopefully will start the migration to full digital modulation. Whether you believe it or not, AM now stands for Antique Modulation.

Receiving fringe-area signals is not considered DXing - IBOC has surely seen to cutting off those listeners. What about all the Mid-Westerners, cross-county truckers, disaster victims, DX'ers, etc, that depend on receiving distant signals ? IBOC is far from a "done deal", as the FCC has left it up to the marketplace to decide - consumers have already been voting, with closed wallets. I think, you fail to realize that when all these out-of-protected-contour listeners start throwing-in-the-towel on listening to radio, and when the AM band is nothing but a sea of hash, station owners are going to get a rude-wakeup-call ! As we have seen, consumers are not interested in buying expensive new HD radios, just to receive Rush in stereo, without the pops, crackles, and hisses - and of course, the downside to HD-AM is that half of the listeners will be lost to IBLOCK. Do you recall the days of failed AM Stereo of the 1980's ?

But if you're listening to the digital modulation on the AM band, there is no "hash" is there? At what point does one need to make the transition, or does one bury one's head in the sand and say that a almost 100 year old modulation scheme is "good enough"?

And yes, I do remember AM Stereo. I was very involved with testing and integration. I agree, the Commission should push the digital transition/migration on radio, just like they did with TV. The reason they won't however is unlike TV, they can't recover the current "NTSC spectrum" and fill the governmental coffers.

 

[davideduardo]

Receiving fringe-area signals is not considered DXing - IBOC has surely seen to cutting off those listeners. What about all the Mid-Westerners, cross-county truckers, disaster victims, DX'ers, etc, that depend on receiving distant signals ? IBOC is far from a "done deal", as the FCC has left it up to the marketplace to decide - consumers have already been voting, with closed wallets. I think, you fail to realize that when all these out-of-protected-contour listeners start throwing-in-the-towel on listening to radio, and when the AM band is nothing but a sea of hash, station owners are going to get a rude-wakeup-call ! As we have seen, consumers are not interested in buying expensive new HD radios, just to receive Rush in stereo, without the pops, crackles, and hisses - and of course, the downside to HD-AM is that half of the listeners will be lost to IBLOCK. Do you recall the days of failed AM Stereo of the 1980's ?

Midwesterners have, on average, 8 to 12 FMs with strong signals to depend on. Example: Traverse City,MI, where in the 60's the surrounding counties had no night local service and had to listen to Detroit or Chicago. Today, places like Leland and Kalkaska have something like 14 signals to choose from, all on FM

Another example... used to be Moberly, MO had one local grade AM signal, a Class IV. Now, there are a dozen FMs in all the surrounding conunties that each put a pretty local signal in Moberly, too. From one stations they have gone to a dozen, at least, and they are FMs, listenable all day and all night, not AM skywavers.

Truckers have almost all gone satellite becasue they then do not have to change stations every 100 or so miles...disaster info can be handled on either AM or FM, whichever is left on the air.

In any case, there are two real issues:

1. Night usage of radio is about 1/4 the daytime usage. FOr AM, it is 1/5th. AM only accounts for 20% of all listening, and only about 10% of under-45 listening.

2. There is very little listening to AMs outside their strongest contours. There is scant evidence that HD would interrupt any significant amount of listening in fringe areas, as there is not much listening to fringe signals at all, on AM or FM.

HD was just launched for the consumer last June. It is way too soon to decide if it will succeed or not, but hte indications are good. $99 receivers, third party chipsets, etc. Nearly 700 HD2 channels offer new free programming, and there will be 2000 HD staitons on i by year end. The FCC approval of HD and night AM HD may accelerate this.

A year after CDs were announced, I paid $1400 for my first CD player. HD is way ahead in price and content.

 

[SmokeRing]

There is very little listening to AMs outside their strongest contours.

As Noam Chomsky likes to say, "You can't really mean what you are saying."

What an absurd statement.

 

[PocketRadio]

2. There is very little listening to AMs outside their strongest contours. There is scant evidence that HD would interrupt any significant amount of listening in fringe areas, as there is not much listening to fringe signals at all, on AM or FM.

3. HD was just launched for the consumer last June. It is way too soon to decide if it will succeed or not, but hte indications are good. $99 receivers, third party chipsets, etc. Nearly 700 HD2 channels offer new free programming, and there will be 2000 HD staitons on i by year end. The FCC approval of HD and night AM HD may accelerate this. A year after CDs were announced, I paid $1400 for my first CD player. HD is way ahead in price and content.

As for #3, the price-point of HD radios is a myth perpetuated by the HD Radio industry - since consumers are not interested in HD Radio technology, no price-point will entice them to buy HD radios. HD Radio chips and licensing fees can run 1/2 the cost of HD radios - portable DAB receivers are at least $100. If table-top HD radios have problems receiving HD signals, with external antennas, just think what a challenge portable HD radios are going to be. You sound like a commercial for HD Radio - if this was such exciting technology, there would have already been substantial consumer interest/uptake. Do you really think that, for instance, gamers are going to spend $120 for a cheap HD Radio on sale, or buy two of their favorite PS3/Xbox 360 games ? Or, when new cellular phones arrive, such as the BlackJack with Wireless Internet, consumers would rather rush out and spend it on HD radios ?

As for #2, we'll see, when nightime IBOC lights up and the top rated AMs start losing listeners and drop in ratings - listeners will just abandon terrestrial radio, and move on to more exciting technologies, which many have already done. According to this RWOnline article, there is interference in fringe areas:

"Avoid the AM IBOC Train Wreck Ahead"

"WDMV (formerly WGOP), an AM daytimer on 700 kHz, is a typical example of a station recently impacted by digital interference. The station is located in Walkersville, Md., about 45 miles northwest of Washington, and is attempting to serve the greater Washington metro with most of the desired coverage well below its primary 5 mV/m contour strength.

"WKDL(AM) on 730 kHz, operating HD Radio from Alexandria, Va., immediately south of Washington, has been blamed for interfering with WGOP's secondary coverage contour that covers Arlington and parts of Alexandria."

"Before WKDL turned on HD Radio transmissions, WDMV apparently claimed more useful secondary coverage into the southwest Washington area suburbs. But this was essentially unprotected coverage it was fortunate to have in a market the station is not licensed to serve. Expecting a half-millivolt signal to deliver acceptable reception on AM in noise-polluted population centers is a rather tenuous enterprise at best."

http://www.rwonline.com/reference-room/guywire/gw-08-04-04.shtml

BTW, this article was brought to you by, "The IBOC Shill". Eventually, the HD Radio Alliance will find out the unimportance of fringe listeners.

 

[PocketRadio]

There is very little listening to AMs outside their strongest contours.

As Noam Chomsky likes to say, "You can't really mean what you are saying."

What an absurd statement.

When, someone works for an HD Radio Alliance partner, and since HD/IBOC will essentually block fringe listening, this type of statement is expected.

 

[davideduardo]

As for #2, we'll see, when nightime IBOC lights up and the top rated AMs start losing listeners and drop in ratings - listeners will just abandon terrestrial radio, and move on to more exciting technologies, which many have already done. According to this RWOnline article, there is interference in fringe areas:

If there has been no significant daytime interference, why would there be any at night? Since AM listening is much, much lower at night, the number of potential complainers would be significantly less.


[/quote]
"WDMV (formerly WGOP), an AM daytimer on 700 kHz, is a typical example of a station recently impacted by digital interference. The station is located in Walkersville, Md., about 45 miles northwest of Washington, and is attempting to serve the greater Washington metro with most of the desired coverage well below its primary 5 mV/m contour strength. [/quote]

In other words, it is not a DC station. It is at best, a Montgomery County, MD, station.

No station is protected against interference in the area where, in theier dreams, they would like to cover.

"WKDL(AM) on 730 kHz, operating HD Radio from Alexandria, Va., immediately south of Washington, has been blamed for interfering with WGOP's secondary coverage contour that covers Arlington and parts of Alexandria."

And that station is inside the metro. Arlington is part of the DC market.

A top 10 station in Santa Barbara, CA was KLVE from LA. The FCC licensed a new staiton in Santa Barbara (the market, not the city) on the adjacent channel. Now you can not get KLVE anyplace int he county. It was nice while it existed, but there was no guarantee of future service.

 

[PhilJSmith67]

Even with as much interference as I have witnessed on first adjacent channels from HD Radio signals, and (very much depending on the receiver) some interference to much weaker second-adjacent channels, I find it hard to believe that any significant number of receivers whatsoever have issues on third-adjacent channels. I have only one receiver that is really REALLY wideband, which gives me the "waterfall" on any HD station, and even on that receiver, it has no issues 30kHz away from an HD station. Coincidentally, that receiver is so wideband that is sounds "nice" only for the absolute strongest stations. Any moderate or weaker stations sound awful on it, IBOC or not.

In both of my cars (stock Nissan, and after-market Blaupunkt Alaska-II), I can listen to 700 WLW Cincinnati, which is barely audible at all during the day, as I drive past the 720 WGN Chicago tower. I lose WLW within a mile of the tower, not because of IBOC, but simply because of desensitization. 710 and 730 are a solid, loud hash, but 700 WLW has no more background noise than a station 275 miles away normally would. It would also be a safe bet that virtually nobody at all is listening to WLW Cincinnati in the Chicagoland area during the day.