The Day The Oldies Died

[RADIOGM]

No, I don't think KONO and K-HITS were at all the same. KONO is a station with soul - 4 Tops, Motown, Black 70's music. K-KITS was just too white with no soul. Just one of the many reasons they couldn't make it.


RGM

 

[Element9]

There's a distinction between Classic Hits and Oldies. It's somewhat amusing to read the posts about Classic Hits stations not being able to pay the electric bill and keep the lights on. Keep drinking that agency cool-aid. A well-resourced sales department, good air talent and forward thinking program director can make a Classic Hits format top five Persons 25-54, top three Persons 35-64 and a contender for top three Persons 45-54; and turn those ratings into revenue.

 

[davideduardo]

Oldies will rebound as Classic Hits featuring 60s, 70s and 80s.

The industry definition of Classic Hits is a 70's based pop/CHR gold format, and while they can have a smattering of 60's and 80's, the term refers to a 70's core.

Oldies is used to identify the same kind of format but using mostly a 60's core.

The music is just too good to not find a place on terrestrial radio. The format may be 45-64 intensive, but it still reaches people and hits them right in the heart. Buffalo had one of the original Classic Hits stations in America from 1986-89, WHTT Classic Hits 104.1.

I think you have the terms of the trade wrong. While a station may call itself anything on the air, there are, principlally to assist media buyers, standard definitions. I don't think there has ever been a Classic Hits station that morphed into Oldies. The process is the opposite... oldies stations that move out of the sales demos become classic hits to make the core audience younger.

All the sales gurus tell us that nobody buys 45-54, 45-64, but it's just a matter of time before somebody wakes up and smells the coffee.

Nobody buys 55+ at the agency level. 45-54 is inside the 18-54 area that is well desired by agency accounts.

 

[LibertyNT]

Oldies will rebound as Classic Hits featuring 60s, 70s and 80s.

The industry definition of Classic Hits is a 70's based pop/CHR gold format, and while they can have a smattering of 60's and 80's, the term refers to a 70's core.

Oldies is used to identify the same kind of format but using mostly a 60's core.

The music is just too good to not find a place on terrestrial radio. The format may be 45-64 intensive, but it still reaches people and hits them right in the heart. Buffalo had one of the original Classic Hits stations in America from 1986-89, WHTT Classic Hits 104.1.

I think you have the terms of the trade wrong. While a station may call itself anything on the air, there are, principlally to assist media buyers, standard definitions. I don't think there has ever been a Classic Hits station that morphed into Oldies. The process is the opposite... oldies stations that move out of the sales demos become classic hits to make the core audience younger.

All the sales gurus tell us that nobody buys 45-54, 45-64, but it's just a matter of time before somebody wakes up and smells the coffee.

Nobody buys 55+ at the agency level. 45-54 is inside the 18-54 area that is well desired by agency accounts.

Sadly Hes Right about 55+. no one buys that anymore. except for on political talk Stations.
Now there have been some GREAT oldies stations in the past. and there still are. Used to be a good Oldies station in nearly every market, But sadly they are dying. But it seems they are making a comeback with Scott Shannan's True Oldies Channel. Companies other then Viagra, Cialis, and colon cleaners will buy ads at Oldies stations.

 

[michaelshiloh]

Just for the history books: Houston's KFMK was sort of the exception to the rule, David. It was '70s-based "Classic Hits KFMK" in the mid-'80s, with a lotta Classic Rock and some '60s and '50s mixed in (with the best FT personalities in town).

Then when KLDE came along playing Oldies in the late '80s, KFMK decided to take them on and at the same time take on K-Lite, calling themselves "Classic Oldies and More," the oldies being a tighter playlist of '50s, '60s and '70s, the "more" being current AC soft hits.

It was the beginning of the end for KFMK, the beginning of the rise of KLDE, which had a clearer and more upbeat format.

 

[davideduardo]

Just for the history books: Houston's KFMK was sort of the exception to the rule, David. It was '70s-based "Classic Hits KFMK" in the mid-'80s, with a lotta Classic Rock and some '60s and '50s mixed in (with the best FT personalities in town).

The descriptor of Classic Hits was only allowed by Arbitron in the last few years... as Oldies stations petitioned to have a term that fit their move to 70s' based songs. Those stations wanted to divorce themselves from the 60's taint, which was a kiss of death in sales, so the Classic Hits name was introduced.

As I said, it does not matter what an individual station calls itself on the air... the term has a precise sales meaning and has only been used for the last few years. Think of the term Adult Contemporary... seldom if ever used on the air, but used for sales to describe a thousand or so US radio stations.

 

[michaelshiloh]

You are absolutely right about "Classic Hits," Mr. Eduardo. As always. I defer to your vast experience. I was just telling my little story.

And to paraphrase a current joke:

What is the difference between David Eduardo and God?

God doesn't think he's David Eduardo.

 

[poops]

Just for the history books: Houston's KFMK was sort of the exception to the rule, David. It was '70s-based "Classic Hits KFMK" in the mid-'80s, with a lotta Classic Rock and some '60s and '50s mixed in (with the best FT personalities in town).

The descriptor of Classic Hits was only allowed by Arbitron in the last few years... as Oldies stations petitioned to have a term that fit their move to 70s' based songs. Those stations wanted to divorce themselves from the 60's taint, which was a kiss of death in sales, so the Classic Hits name was introduced.

As I said, it does not matter what an individual station calls itself on the air... the term has a precise sales meaning and has only been used for the last few years. Think of the term Adult Contemporary... seldom if ever used on the air, but used for sales to describe a thousand or so US radio stations.

David,

With all do respect, as a listener, I could care less whether it's called oldies, classic rock, lite rock, or whatever. Just give me a good mix of the music that I love to hear, with on-air talent that... gets to do their thing, in their way, without having to read some card with a sterile, prepared script. I remember back in the day of GOOD radio, I didn't mind much listening to many of the commercials, because, the DJs made them entertaining. I admire your knowledge of the radio business, but at the end of the day, statistics are do not make good radio(at least for us who listen, and hope our station does not fall victim to those same statistics... and totally moronic coporate management). It is very sad, when the only alternatives for folks like myself who like to hear a wide variety of music from the 60s, 70s and 80s, is either IPOD, satellite, or a small AM station with a weak signal, that (IMHO) probably has one of the best playlists out there right now. Again, I am always fascinated by your knowledge and insight, and BTW have learned a great deal from your posts, but that data, or whatever the ratings groups categorizes a station as, doesn't really amount to a hill of beans to the listener. Give us the music we like to hear, and let the talent do their jobs and entertain.

Michael,

You are very right about KFMK. The thing I liked about that station, was the talent was excellent, and when I wanted to hear a particular song, all I had to do was call. I know that "The Box" has been a strong station since the flip in 91, but it to old fogeys like myself, it was the perfect radio station lost. With me, KFMK rated in the top, with it the BIG-610, KILT of the 60s & 70s.

poops

 

[jimrichvo]

Try KLUV HD2 on the internet. Note they stream regular KLUV and KLUVHD2. KLUVHD2 is fantastic and the've gone to a lot of work to keep the quality high. Excellent audio processing too.

 

[JustPastBuffalo]

I don't think there has ever been a Classic Hits station that morphed into Oldies. The process is the opposite... oldies stations that move out of the sales demos become classic hits to make the core audience younger.

To every rule, there is an exception, in this case Classic Hits morphing to Oldies. David as usual, is correct, but here's the exception. Admittedly, it goes back a while. In 1986, WHTT Buffalo was one of the first Classic Hits stations in the U.S. I was the PD and did PM drive at the time. WKLH Milwaukee, WKLX Rochester and about a dozen other FM stations in medium and large markets were successful doing Classic Hits consulted by Gary Guthrie, who also consulted WHTT. (Long story short, Pryamid Broadcasting copped the WHTT call letters for Buffalo after a CHR in Boston abandoned them.)

Fred Jacobs, at the time, was researching and consulting Classic Rock, while Guthrie was taking a different approach with a format he called Classic Hits. The broad based distinction between the two formats, Classic Rock was "artist-group-album-based" while Classic Hits was more "song-single-based." Guthrie's Classic Hits stations featured hit singles from 1964 to 1980, where a listener might hear (as a rough example) "Baby Love" by the Supremes next to Skynyrd's "Sweet Home Alabama." On the other hand, Jacobs' Classic Rock stations featured tracks from artists and groups. For example, a track from "Houses of the Holy" next to a track from "Abbey Road." Both gentlemen were passionate about their formats and I'm fortunate to have worked with each of them.

In 1989, the two formats went head to head in Buffalo and WHTT flipped to Oldies, dropping songs that were hits after 1975 and adding songs from 1955-63. Oldies 104 became one of the dominant Oldies stations in America, programmed by Tom Schuh who guided the market-leading station from 1989 to 2000.

Over the past nine years, the format of WHTT evolved from Oldies to Classic Hits (2003-2007) and now is settled in as a gold and re-current based AC station as Mix 104.1. Granted, it's not your typical evolution, whether it's viewed in the context of 1989 or 2009. I did middays' at WHTT from 2004 to January of this year, when my "position was eliminated."

As David noted, these days, nobody flips to Oldies, but they do flip to Classic Hits, which is essentially features hits from the 70s and 80s, with a smattering of 60s and in some cases, even a few hits from the early 90s.

 

[davideduardo]

To every rule, there is an exception, in this case Classic Hits morphing to Oldies. David as usual, is correct, but here's the exception. Admittedly, it goes back a while. In 1986, WHTT Buffalo was one of the first Classic Hits stations in the U.S. I was the PD and did PM drive at the time. WKLH Milwaukee, WKLX Rochester and about a dozen other FM stations in medium and large markets were successful doing Classic Hits consulted by Gary Guthrie, who also consulted WHTT. (Long story short, Pryamid Broadcasting copped the WHTT call letters for Buffalo after a CHR in Boston abandoned them.)

That's a very interesting story. I am glad to see the exception, although I have to admit I don't see the reasoning. Help!

What were the market conditions that favored what we would today call "classic hits" 23 years ago? And why do you suppose that focus mostly died out and then came back due to the demographic pressures on oldies formats?

 

[aunti-terrestrial]

Very funny, michaelshiloh!

 

[JustPastBuffalo]

To every rule, there is an exception, in this case Classic Hits morphing to Oldies. David as usual, is correct, but here's the exception. Admittedly, it goes back a while. In 1986, WHTT Buffalo was one of the first Classic Hits stations in the U.S. I was the PD and did PM drive at the time. WKLH Milwaukee, WKLX Rochester and about a dozen other FM stations in medium and large markets were successful doing Classic Hits consulted by Gary Guthrie, who also consulted WHTT. (Long story short, Pryamid Broadcasting copped the WHTT call letters for Buffalo after a CHR in Boston abandoned them.)

That's a very interesting story. I am glad to see the exception, although I have to admit I don't see the reasoning. Help!

What were the market conditions that favored what we would today call "classic hits" 23 years ago? And why do you suppose that focus mostly died out and then came back due to the demographic pressures on oldies formats?

David, I sent you a lengthy PM on this so as not to commandeer this board or thread.

Much of what happened 23 years with Classic Hits WHTT had to do with the aging and shrinking Buffalo-Niagara Falls market. Then as now, it was all about reaching key demographics. At the time, there was a vacuum in the Buffalo-Niagara Falls market. In 1985, the dominant AOR (97 Rock) owned by Taft, flipped to AC. A weak signal flipped to AOR in an attempt to fill the void, had one good "honeymoon book" and foundered. Meanwhile, four CHR-Churbans were duking it out for the pleasure of reaching 12-34s. Most buys were coming down 25-54 at the time. In September 1986, WNYS became WHTT and flipped from CHR to Classic Hits. Interesting. Those 12-34s are now 35-57. Hence, Katrina & The Waves, the Police and Huey Lewis & The News on Classic Hits stations all over America.

Around 1986-87, a number of stations flipped to Classic Hits consulted by Gary Guthrie and Classic Rock as consulted by Fred Jacobs as both formats were beginning to get traction reaching the coveted 25-54 demographics in medium and large markets. 97 Rock re-surfaced in late 1988 as Classic Rock. As a result, Classic Hits WHTT was forced out of its position. The format hole was Oldies, and the decision was made. WHTT in May 1989 became Oldies 104 and had a 13 year run at or near the top of the ratings under PD Tom Schuh.

In 1992, Oldies 104 was a runaway freight train. By 2002, the demographics for Oldies 104 began to age 45-64. The station began to de-emphasize songs from 1955-1964. Around 2004, the word "Oldies" was dropped and the station reverted to using "Buffalo's Greatest Hits 104.1 WHTT," focusing on music from 65-88. In March 2007, WHTT moved to feature more music from the 90s, dropped almost all 60s songs, ceased using the call letters and "Greatest Hits" slogan and became a gold based AC, featuring music from the 80s, 90s and re-currents with a smattering of 70s and became "Mix 104.1." It now competes with two established, strong signal ACs. Since I was cast out of middays, only AM and PM drive are live, middays is voice tracked out of market, and nights are tracked with John Tesh. Weekends are VT'd, save for 10 a.m. to 2 p.m. Saturday and Sunday.

I believe Classic Hits is a viable format. Yet clearly, the definition of Classic Hits today is different from that of 1986.

 

[gdbroadcaster]

If you want to listen online, go to www.backyardradio.com. It's a mix of everything! Heard about it from a friend and I understand it's local.

 

[Silkie]

I'm pretty sure the person who started this thread has moved on to something else, although she hung in there for a short time.

 

[PapillionWyngs]

I'm pretty sure the person who started this thread has moved on to something else, although she hung in there for a short time.

I am here, reading daily. Since they fired Ed Scarborough, I am really too angry to comment, but thank you for the suggestions of where to find oldies. I am hoping for a swift demise of the KEAGLE.

 

[Brokenhearted Bill]

Old people have more money than young people because old people don't frivolously spend money. So it's not the size of the bank account, it's the size of the credit card charges that lure advertisers.

The solution is for the FCC to return to its original reason for being. It had an order from Congress when it was established: Paraphrased, "Stations are to operate in the public's interest, convenience and necessity." The idea was that since the airwaves belong to us all, there has to be programming for us all. Therefore, the FCC wouldn't allow a market of, say, 5 stations to all be programming Christian music or continuous talk.

 

[rbrucecarter5]

It had an order from Congress when it was established: Paraphrased, "Stations are to operate in the public's interest, convenience and necessity." The idea was that since the airwaves belong to us all, there has to be programming for us all. Therefore, the FCC wouldn't allow a market of, say, 5 stations to all be programming Christian music or continuous talk.

the original FRC mandate was to prevent interference. We have sure come full circle on that! Interference is allowed when it is in the radio conglomerate's or iBiquity's best interest. Or some minority owned station / broadcast group.

As for oldies, if we all put rim shots like KGBC, KSHN, and KCOL into the ratings, even with the difficulty receiving them, somebody might get the idea that oldies will fly in the Houston market - especially when oldies stations in other markets are doing just fine ---

 

[davideduardo]

As for oldies, if we all put rim shots like KGBC, KSHN, and KCOL into the ratings, even with the difficulty receiving them, somebody might get the idea that oldies will fly in the Houston market - especially when oldies stations in other markets are doing just fine ---

"Oldies" stations are not doing fine. "Classic Hits" stations are. Oldies is defined as 60's based pop hits, while Classic Hits defines a 70's based format.

70's based formats get pretty decent sales demos; 60's based formats don't.

Of the three stations you mention, two are no-shows in the Houston market ratings, and one occasionally gets a 0.1 to 0.2 share, but usually gets nothing. Those are certainly not evidence that there is a passion for oldies.

 

[davideduardo]

Old people have more money than young people because old people don't frivolously spend money. So it's not the size of the bank account, it's the size of the credit card charges that lure advertisers.

Advertisers spend hundreds of millions on consumer research. And they find that for most mass market products, the older the consumer, the lower the return on investment is to make a sale. In other words, it takes more ad impressions, which cost more, to make the sale, and the profit is reduced by the cost of advertising.

It's not about income level or savings accounts.

The solution is for the FCC to return to its original reason for being. It had an order from Congress when it was established: Paraphrased, "Stations are to operate in the public's interest, convenience and necessity." The idea was that since the airwaves belong to us all, there has to be programming for us all. Therefore, the FCC wouldn't allow a market of, say, 5 stations to all be programming Christian music or continuous talk.

With the exception, up to about 40 years ago, of protecting to some extent classical music as a format, the FCC allows and has always allowed stations to determine the musical style they will play or the general format. The FCC would not intervene, now, or in the past, were all the stations in a market to have the same format... in fact, in the era the FCC was created, pretty much all stations did have the same format... drama, news, soap operas, variety shows from the Red, Blue, Columbia and later the Mutual webs.

Even the FCC knows that all stations would not adopt the same format as owners would quickly find that the market had a variety of tastes and dividing one segment multiple ways and not serving any other was bad business.