The DJ's Who Are Promoting Oldies Back On WCBS-FM-Who's Missing ?

[OldiesCat]

And, they're not going to listen to the new incarnation in droves.

And, please back up your "will return in droves" as fact, as you purport. We're waiting.

"In droves" was referenced from your previous quote. You'll see--when the summer books come out.

Come on, Fang- you framed your statement as "a matter of fact". Now it's a prediction? Thanks, Ms. Cleo.

 

[fang39]

While I do agree the station needs to move forward, the promo appearances of past jocks is all about Public Relations--mending broken fences with the listeners in this market. What upset us was the callous way the beloved jocks of the station were canned without notice an hour before the flip to Jack in 2005. It made the front page in the local newspapers.

I'm not sure of the value in mending fences with people who likely won't listen to you, anyway. Most of those pissed after CBS-FM flipped were the Oldies die-hards, 60+ listeners. And, they're not going to listen to the new incarnation in droves.

I don't buy that for a second. What you keep missing and refuse to accept is that it was the personalities as much as the music that made the original incarnation special, and why Jack was never accepted in this market. Many of those disenfranchised listeners will in fact return "in droves" and accept the new version of CBS-FM because of the jocks. If Dan Mason & the CBS suits wanted a "Classic Hits" format, then why bother bringing back jocks with such strong name recognition in the market? Because they understand the value of these names and what they meant to their audience!

And, please back up your "will return in droves" as fact, as you purport. We're waiting.

"In droves" was referenced from your previous quote. You'll see--when the summer books come out.

Come on, Fang- you framed your statement as "a matter of fact". Now it's a prediction? Thanks, Ms. Cleo.
[/quote]

Again, Cat, you're the one who introduced the term "in droves" into this conversation. I just borrowed it from you. And yes, my statement is a prediction (perhaps a bit wishful thinking), since I don't know any better than you do, how well the station will perform, though I suspect you soon will tell us that as an authority that you do in fact know.

 

[NamJock]

Someone close to the situation: with Joel Hollander gone, could Ingram be enticed? Or does the problem go further up than that (or further down)?

 

[OldiesCat]

Someone close to the situation: with Joel Hollander gone, could Ingram be enticed? Or does the problem go further up than that (or further down)?

Isn't Dan Ingram around 70 years old?

 

[fang39]

Someone close to the situation: with Joel Hollander gone, could Ingram be enticed? Or does the problem go further up than that (or further down)?

Isn't Dan Ingram around 70 years old?

I believe he's 72. Aside from a cameo "welcome back" message, you're not likely to hear "The Ingram Man" on CBS-FM.

 

[NamJock]

Well, while you two have your FANGS out with this time-waster of a CAT fight, which should probably go TIO, let me offer a brief two-cents. Oldies is a format different from any other in that the presentation is as important as the music. People are reminiscing when listening to this unique format. So it stands to reason that the entire environment of the station should evoke the memories the listener seeks - especially to include the jox. This would also embrace many other elements not found on today's contemporary stations, or found in a different form. To include:

• the music,
• the peripheral presenters (news, traffic, wx etc),
• the pacing,
• the jingles,
• the promos,
• the contests,
• even the spots when possible, et al.

But, when you ask what's most important to the operators, guys like Dan Mason, that's going to always come down to the revenue. Revenue is a confluence of ratings and the skills of the AEs to convince advertisers that they will move product by advertising on the station regardless of the numbers. So to exclude or dismiss out of hand, people over 50 or 60 or even 70 as one of you has with a snide comment about "...their parents station/jocks," may be short-sighted. Though not Arbitron's favorite folks - believe me, they spend money. IMHO a station offering the totality of the oldies experience will be a lot easier to sell than a bland, music-only product.

If a listener wants to just listen to the music without the surrounding environment of a true NY Oldies Station, there are many internet stations (for the time being anyway), satellite and other delivery systems where they can have pure music - no atmosphere. If guilty, consider yourselves chastised.

Wow, that's so good, I may make a new subject out it because it's stuck way down here under your adolescent argument.

 

[barnaby_wilde]

NamJock, I totally agree!!! For an Oldies station to survive, it will need the total package. Presentation is as important as the music. If the 50+ folks are a hard sell, they are also a loyal bunch. A real Oldies station that includes pre-Beatles music may never be the dominant station in a market, but it sure could beat a lot of stations that seem to flip faster than a circus acrobat.

 

[fang39]

Well, while you two have your FANGS out with this time-waster of a CAT fight, which should probably go TIO, let me offer a brief two-cents. Oldies is a format different from any other in that the presentation is as important as the music. People are reminiscing when listening to this unique format. So it stands to reason that the entire environment of the station should evoke the memories the listener seeks - especially to include the jox. This would also embrace many other elements not found on today's contemporary stations, or found in a different form. To include:

• the music,
• the peripheral presenters (news, traffic, wx etc),
• the pacing,
• the jingles,
• the promos,
• the contests,
• even the spots when possible, et al.

But, when you ask what's most important to the operators, guys like Dan Mason, that's going to always come down to the revenue. Revenue is a confluence of ratings and the skills of the AEs to convince advertisers that they will move product by advertising on the station regardless of the numbers. So to exclude or dismiss out of hand, people over 50 or 60 or even 70 as one of you has with a snide comment about "...their parents station/jocks," may be short-sighted. Though not Arbitron's favorite folks - believe me, they spend money. IMHO a station offering the totality of the oldies experience will be a lot easier to sell than a bland, music-only product.

If a listener wants to just listen to the music without the surrounding environment of a true NY Oldies Station, there are many internet stations (for the time being anyway), satellite and other delivery systems where they can have pure music - no atmosphere. If guilty, consider yourselves chastised.

Wow, that's so good, I may make a new subject out it because it's stuck way down here under your adolescent argument.

Great post, NamJock! I agree with you 100%

 

[NamJock]

Thanks for the compliment. One can only try.

I did start a new thread with this copy, spent too much time on it to let it rot here on page 3? 4?

Subject: WCBS: Old Jocks, New Jocks, Who'sa Jocks, No Jox? Lots of views, no replies which surprises me.

Where's Oldies Cat with his two cents. Suppose we finally shut him up? I oughta charge him with age discrimination

 

[OldiesCat]

But, when you ask what's most important to the operators, guys like Dan Mason, that's going to always come down to the revenue.

Yes, funny how that works. The head of a major radio company, attempting to turn a profit. How dare he?

:

 

[NamJock]

Ah, there you are Oldies Cat. I'm surprised you haven't come over to beat me about the head and shoulders with my walker ;<)

Now you and Fang play nice.

NJ

 

[OldiesCat]

Ah, there you are Oldies Cat. I'm surprised you haven't come over to beat me about the head and shoulders with my walker ;<)

It just drives me nuts, these types who gripe about radio operators being "all about the mighty buck". Yes, it's a BUSINESS- you're supposed to generate revenue. Do these goofs think you can operate radio like the airlines, always drowning in red?

DUH!!!

 

[NamJock]

Funny. I try to spend a little time each day on Yahoo Answers working mostly with young people in "Family & Friends." My handle there is..
... Duh.

But I digress, you will not draw me into your beef. Here's What caused my remarks to you two in the first place. Doesn't matter how old the jock is or isn't. It's the talent and FIT that counts. And with this station we are discussing, you must take the older demos into consideration. Not all NY ads are sold to agency or national accounts. There is a lot of local business which is dependent on the attitude of the buyer at the local 3-4 store level. And/or the owner him/herself. Judge not, young Cat - except by talent and "fit." Now, go forth and do radio.

 

[OldiesCat]

All of that is nice and poetic, but the stark facts are that advertisers are not using radio to target 55+ consumers, therefore making an Oldies station anything but a late 60s to early 80s mix today is a recipe for disaster (unless you're in a smaller market, put it on an AM and run it on a low budget or with something like Shannon's True Oldies Channel). But, if you're a top 100 market trying to realistically compete 25-54, you'll fail.

 

[adma]

Yes, but let's look at a bigger-picture stark fact here, and at what radio programming economics has brought us--and why it's folly to view music (and non-musical) consumption habits through a radio prism as obsessively as a lot of radio types do.

Has anyone stopped to consider that over the past two or three decades, especially, commercial radio's tended to increasingly reflect the bottom of the audience barrel, the dregs of virtually *every* format category it's specialized in? To offer a buncha stereotypes here, Album Rock = disco-hating Joe Dirt types. Modern Rock = Woodstock '99 mooks. Urban/hip-hop = gangsta hoodlums'n'hos. CHR = job-juggling teen moms. AC = Delilah-loving middle-aged crazy ladies. Oldies = grumpy old Archie Bunkers. Classic Hits = the 40-year-old parents of job-juggling teen moms. Talk radio = well, you know. (Country *might* be a semi-exception; but in such a forced "Truman Show" way that it practically proves the rule.)

Perhaps, folks, "radio normal" is *not* normal? That it's something, well, lower down the pole, and sinking? As they say, maybe the traditional systems of Arbitron diaries and auditorium tests and the means of procuring willing participants are disproportionately geared to the kinds of people prone to entering mail-in sweepstakes or acquiescing to telemarketers or just desperate for money and w/time on their hands--maybe it might have been more "normal" a generation ago, but in our age of mass spam-wariness, well...

...though I can see the possible twisted logic, i.e. if they're gullible enough for Arbitron gratuities, they're gullible enough for ad buyers' soft sells.

But maybe all this idle talk about ad buyers and demos is camoflauging bigger rot at hand, even at the ad-buyer level: consider this post--and it's pretty mild as such stuff goes, not going into the depths of infomercials and quackery, etc. Gresham's Law, maybe? Bad money driving out good?

No wonder I find such curt crudity to these Oldies Cat arguments about the present and future of oldies--this kind of logic behind musical taste is akin to the artistic-taste logic of a shopping-mall purveyor of "Original Landscapes". Ah well, given we're talking about a medium that's increasingly Alt-Media For The Silent Majority in the guise of the "mainstream"...

 

[NamJock]

advertisers are not using radio to target 55+ consumers, therefore making an Oldies station anything but a late 60s to early 80s mix today is a recipe for disaster

Yup. Heard that for 30+ years now. 55+? Forget it. The problem with that argument is 60 is the new 40. Advertisers know this and, though the buys don't come down that way, believe me, they're being looked at. It's called negotiation.

Look, bud, I don't know what you do or who you are and vice versa. That's the way (uh huh, uh huh) I like it. But I suspect you are not the PD of WCBS or any other big market station. Correct me if I'm wrong. If you were, you wouldn't have this much time (nor the inclination) to be on these boards as much as you are. I'm a consultant and summer is slow, so I've got a little time and have always had a soft spot for CBS-FM. So I got hooked into this board last week, when it was announced they were flop-flipping. And, as I said, I'm not going to get drawn into some long philosophical argument that means nothing. 55+, though probably not the prime target, can be sold, just takes a great local sales staff. As to the 25-54s; 25-49s; 35-49s; 35-54s (Whoa, Nellie! We could go on forever) who knows?

Are you privy to the research a company like CBS can commission or are you talking out your butt? I suspect the latter. That's called an opinion and, like an ****, everyone's got one. And neither of us, at this point in its development, can predict what will happen with 101. So let's let the guys in charge do what they do and we'll see. I have access to the numbers and am good at it. So, I'll know pretty quickly what's going on. PPM Fall book. Word (as my kids say). Maybe a little Summer, but that's just the runup. I don't know about you, Mr. Passion, but I'm done with this subject. It's gotten boring, we're getting nowhere. Let's move on - agree to disagree. This is not the High School debate club.

Hey, Cat. You're a decent writer and have a brain. There's some mixed up kids over at Yahoo Answers who could benefit from your largesse and belicosity. Try it. Over there, you actually build up points and that competitive spirit of yours would love the verification it provides.

 

[NamJock]

bump

 

[OldiesCat]

advertisers are not using radio to target 55+ consumers, therefore making an Oldies station anything but a late 60s to early 80s mix today is a recipe for disaster

Yup. Heard that for 30+ years now. 55+? Forget it. The problem with that argument is 60 is the new 40. Advertisers know this and, though the buys don't come down that way, believe me, they're being looked at. It's called negotiation. I don't know about you, Mr. Passion, but I'm done with this subject. It's gotten boring, we're getting nowhere. Let's move on - agree to disagree. This is not the High School debate club.

Hey, Cat. You're a decent writer and have a brain. There's some mixed up kids over at Yahoo Answers who could benefit from your largesse and belicosity. Try it. Over there, you actually build up points and that competitive spirit of yours would love the verification it provides.

The current landscape of the Oldies format reflects my access to current, relevant information on the format. The level of denial and vitrol toward the truth forces me to respond. Frankly, it would just be easier to ignore all the ignorant hacks but, yes, there's that passion thing- guilty as charged. All the board-ops here complain corporate programmers are just all about numbers and not passionate enough. Then, when you're not afraid to share that passion, you get bashed anyway.

I've posed this question before and never get an answer, so I'll try it again: if the Oldies format (with 55+ a target of advertisers) was such a hot format, why did most Oldies stations that have been flipped over the past couple of years NOT get replaced? (And, this is not a set-up for "oh, well, the suits in radio hate oldies" or "sellers are too lazy to learn the audience".). If there was soooooooo much be money to be made targeting 55+ boomers, why have the money grubbing owners not siezed the opportunity and replaced Oldies in markets where it's been killed?

Some of us know the answer- most won't admit it.

 

[NamJock]

antipathy toward radio by young people are exactly what I have run into, over the last five years

The above was in answer to my separate post on this subject. This point is valid and being hammered by Jerry DelColliano's daily essay. Jerry owned Inside Radio until he sold it to CCU (we won't get into the reasons in this forum). He's currently teaching Music and Media at USC. His access to young people enables him to offer a unique and important peek at their thinking. You can subscribe, or just read his musings at:

http://www.insidemusicmedia.blogspot.com/

As long as I'm here, I'll admit Dan's not a viable candidate at this point in his life. However, I still feel that CBS would be smart to offer the atmosphere that draws oldies listeners. And that would include the jox and their presentation. I don't think I ever advocated WCBS target 55+. You drew that conclusion. The target is up to them; it's the approach that I centered my discussion on. I swore I wasn't going to get back into this today. I really do have other things to do. I admire your passion, if not your intractability. Let's drop it.

 

[OldiesCat]

I don't think I ever advocated WCBS target 55+. You drew that conclusion. The target is up to them; it's the approach that I centered my discussion on. I swore I wasn't going to get back into this today. I really do have other things to do. I admire your passion, if not your intractability. Let's drop it.

If you, as suggested, Program much 50s/early 60s music and have legendary jocks in their 70s on the air, you ARE targeting 55+.

(maybe that's where I'm missing it- trying to explain strategy to wannabes who only know tactics) :