The FM HD Turnoff Thread

[tomservo]

I believe it was Savage who jokingly suggested that we start an FM HD turnoff thread, so here it is. The official FM HD turnoff thread.

I'll start: In the Pensacola, Florida market, country formatted Cat Country 98.7 was a very early HD adopter, but it's been off for a long time now. Like a year or two. "Jack FM" WYOK just turned off their HD about a week ago and it shows no signs of returning, either. (Shame, it was the best performing HD in the entire market.)

There's two. That's not counting the dead HD-2 channels or other temporary outages. Surely there's more.

 

[avtosalon]

The last time I checked, Classic Rock 'The River' 95.9 WERV Aurora/Naperville, Illinois, is an FM station that shut off it's HD1 and HD2.

Around 5 years ago, the HD2 signal was known as 'The Rapids', a 70's and 80's metal/hard rock format that was something unique for the Chicago area. Now we're stuck with boring HD2's that are nothing but same-format extensions of the primary station, or simulcasts of co-owned AM stations. How pathetic!

Broadcasters have an opportunity to offer formats that are new and different than regular radio, but instead they give us garbage on the HD2's, and they don't even bother to have HD3's...

 

[Savage]

Most of the problem is the bandwidth issue. All HD-FMs have 96 kbps to work with. Stereo. If you allocate, say, 64 kbps to the HD-1 digital to give you the best shot of comparing favorably with the analog, you've only got 32 kbps left for the HD-2. Add an HD-3, and you really have to downgrade the HD-1 to 48 kbps, plus you have a mere 48 to whack up for the subs. Juggling all this data on various streams is like trying to stuff a tornado through a keyhole. Something's gotta give.

This system does NOT make for great audio. Remember, the main channel is the only source of revenue. Once you add HD-2 and 3, any sonic advantage of digital is lost.

And then there are the maintenance issues, which explain the chronic/frequent dead air on subs.

 

[audiomusiclover]

Most of the problem is the bandwidth issue. All HD-FMs have 96 kbps to work with. Stereo. If you allocate, say, 64 kbps to the HD-1 digital to give you the best shot of comparing favorably with the analog, you've only got 32 kbps left for the HD-2. Add an HD-3, and you really have to downgrade the HD-1 to 48 kbps, plus you have a mere 48 to whack up for the subs. Juggling all this data on various streams is like trying to stuff a tornado through a keyhole. Something's gotta give.

This system does NOT make for great audio. Remember, the main channel is the only source of revenue. Once you add HD-2 and 3, any sonic advantage of digital is lost.

And then there are the maintenance issues, which explain the chronic/frequent dead air on subs.

One of the best explanations I have heard of HD Radio and why it really cannot work unless used to basically recycle AM talk. Their are few HD2 and HD3 stations that are listenable for over a very few minutes due to the audio digital artifacts. If the technology had say, 192Kbps instead or just 96kbps, it might work for music, but you just can't have any sound quality at 16 kbps or less when dividing up 3 digital stations... I believe that is a main reason why Sat Radio has stopped expanding as well (with other reasons as well), the sound quality is worse than awful.

 

[local oscillator]

Could I get partial credit for never being foolish enough to put HD on my FM?

 

[spunker88]

Some people don't notice digital artifacts, but I do and its worse than static on the ears. I can remember compressing MP3s down so I could fit as many as possible on early MP3 players and compression artifacts were always a problem. But nowadays we can get large MP3 players a lot cheaper meaning you can up the bit rate to something a lot higher than HD radio can offer and still have room for plenty of music. And with many HD subchannels being satellite fed, generic programming, why would somebody listen to it when they can take all their favorite songs with them at a higher bit rate. Local programming and live sports/talk programs can't be done from an MP3 player so they may have an advantage, but listening to talk in HD can be painful sometimes. Those pauses between talking can be so silent that without looking you think the HD signal may have been lost. Sports in HD actually doesn't sound that bad since it includes audience background noise and you don't except the best sounding audio.

FM HD will stay around because of the loophole that allows HD translators to be established and broadcast in analog. If this proves to be profitable then these stations will keep on broadcasting in HD for the sole purpose of HD translators.

I also find it funny that most of the HD stations in my area are in the non-commercial band. Yet they always act like they are barely getting by and need donation money. I guess if they are getting HD listeners to donate money its worth it for them.

 

[tomservo]

Most of the problem is the bandwidth issue. All HD-FMs have 96 kbps to work with. Stereo. If you allocate, say, 64 kbps to the HD-1 digital to give you the best shot of comparing favorably with the analog, you've only got 32 kbps left for the HD-2. Add an HD-3, and you really have to downgrade the HD-1 to 48 kbps, plus you have a mere 48 to whack up for the subs. Juggling all this data on various streams is like trying to stuff a tornado through a keyhole. Something's gotta give.

This system does NOT make for great audio. Remember, the main channel is the only source of revenue. Once you add HD-2 and 3, any sonic advantage of digital is lost.

And then there are the maintenance issues, which explain the chronic/frequent dead air on subs.

If no one is listening, what does it matter how they sound?

 

[tomservo]

Some people don't notice digital artifacts, but I do and its worse than static on the ears.

It's a lateral move for me. The terrible highs are offset by the great dynamic range and better stereo separation. Or maybe I've been exposed to it for so long I'm starting to get used to it. Audio on most radio stations is compressed music on disk anyway and sounds really bad. (Clear Channel is the worst offender in my market, the former Dick Broadcasting stations in Birmingham sound even worse.) Putting digital on top of digital just adds to the problem.

Unfortunately, you and I are in a very small minority. I've preached and hollered about compression artefacts for years and it's all fallen on deaf ears, so to speak. Compression is literally everywhere now: your digital cell phone, the music on your analog (or HD) radio station, the Muzak in the supermarket, the digital tier cable stations, all the channels on DBS, streaming internet audio, iTunes downloads, even DVDs are compressed audio.

I find it odd that some folks complain about HD sound quality when the source music at many radio stations is compromised to begin with (and if you operate a station with lossless audio or very low compression rates on your music, I salute you!) It's really not that big of a difference, especially on stations with no subchannels (our local rap station, WBLX, has fantastic HD sound that is not at all sparkly-watery-yucky) and the internet radio stream I'm listening to now (live local talk radio) sounds as bad as any HD feed (and drops out just as much, and I'm on wifi.)

OK so far we have 2 or 3 FM HD stations confirmed off. That's not much of a start. :-X

 

[pianoplayer88key]

There's something I think I don't quite understand....

How is it that an analog AM signal can have a fairly good sound with only about 20 kHz of bandwidth....
1242 JOLF
1470 XERCN
but digital at, say, 32kHz in the FM band requires something like maybe 50kHz or more, and doesn't sound even anywhere close to as good?

Also btw is it possible to do stereo with analog SSB AM and still have 180° separation (or when something is panned hard one side, there's no sound on the other side, for example)?

And as for keeping noise levels down, I got an idea. The FCC needs to get out of bed with the electronics equipment manufacturers, and lay down the law that those devices, powerlines, etc, are to keep their peak radiation down to at least 180dB below ambient wintertime polar atmospheric noise levels (at a time when there's no aurora), as measured at the outer edge of the offending device/cable/etc with its cover removed.
Also it'd be nice if buildings would no longer be constructed in such a way to block signals. I've been in places that let signals through just fine. (I can understand not tearing down & reconstructing existing buildings due to the astronomical cost, though.)

I'm guessing that if the noise was brought under control, AM stations could enjoy crystal-clear reception (S/N totally dominating 32-bit digital) at midday on cheap Coby pocket radios in places where they currently are buried & undetectable even using SDRs, QRSS CW (dot length being an entire solar cycle, or PSK0.001) & beverage antennas, for example. Or is manmade noise not quite THAT bad?

Also I was just thinking.... if ALL the graveyarders (class C, or at least 1230 & 1240) ran 50kW non-directional 24/7 with HD at 100% power for a week, and/or maybe all the daytimers and those with reduced night power ran full power full time with 100% HD for a week,, I wonder how many people would continue to like HD on AM?

 

[KB1OKL]

I turned off my Sony HD tuner over a year ago.

 

[nd2023]

WXTU 92.5 Philadelphia, one of the first adopters of HD, hasn't been buzzing for 2 weeks

 

[spunker88]

Some people don't notice digital artifacts, but I do and its worse than static on the ears.

It's a lateral move for me. The terrible highs are offset by the great dynamic range and better stereo separation. Or maybe I've been exposed to it for so long I'm starting to get used to it. Audio on most radio stations is compressed music on disk anyway and sounds really bad. (Clear Channel is the worst offender in my market, the former Dick Broadcasting stations in Birmingham sound even worse.) Putting digital on top of digital just adds to the problem.

Unfortunately, you and I are in a very small minority. I've preached and hollered about compression artefacts for years and it's all fallen on deaf ears, so to speak. Compression is literally everywhere now: your digital cell phone, the music on your analog (or HD) radio station, the Muzak in the supermarket, the digital tier cable stations, all the channels on DBS, streaming internet audio, iTunes downloads, even DVDs are compressed audio.

I find it odd that some folks complain about HD sound quality when the source music at many radio stations is compromised to begin with (and if you operate a station with lossless audio or very low compression rates on your music, I salute you!) It's really not that big of a difference, especially on stations with no subchannels (our local rap station, WBLX, has fantastic HD sound that is not at all sparkly-watery-yucky) and the internet radio stream I'm listening to now (live local talk radio) sounds as bad as any HD feed (and drops out just as much, and I'm on wifi.)

OK so far we have 2 or 3 FM HD stations confirmed off. That's not much of a start. :-X

A lot of it is audio engineering, if done right an HD Radio signal can be tolerable. And yes, even analog FM is digital since the music being played is stored digitally and unless the transmitter is next to the studio (rare these days) then the signal must be microwaved digitally. But if they can keep the bit rate high enough then its hard to notice unless you are a true audiophile. There aren't many HD stations I can pull in where I am but the ones I have listened to the first thing I think is this sounds like a webstream.

 

[pianoplayer88key]

So how would that "tolerable" HD compare to these clips?

1242 JOLF
1470 XERCN

And can that be done in a fraction of the bandwidth that those analog AM signals take?

 

[Dxer1105]

Nick, 92.5 being off has improved dxing opporunities on 92.3 and 92.7. I live 10 miles away from the transmitter and on a kaito 1103, I can pick up 92.7 from toms river and 92.3 new york all the time by just tuning slightly off frequency. i also have a sony tabletop version of that xdr-f1hd radio with an ipod dock, that radio has the best selectivity and can pick them up clearly without tuning off frequency.

 

[ddsparxx]

None of the FM HD stations in the DC area hasn't shut off their IBOC buzzers yet...except for one..WPRZ 104.1 Waldorf, MD. It had its IBOC on for a short period of time and has been off ever since. Whoever owns WXTU, I think it's Beastley Broadcasting or whatever it is called, is doing the right thing by leaving it off.

 

[davideduardo]

And yes, even analog FM is digital since the music being played is stored digitally and unless the transmitter is next to the studio (rare these days) then the signal must be microwaved digitally.

T1's are the preferred STL (of course, digital, too) as they are less prone to inversion layers, interference from other users in the band, etc. They also allow backhauling of metering and status data and transmitter control.

 

[Play Freebird]

T1's are the preferred STL (of course, digital, too) as they are less prone to inversion layers, interference from other users in the band, etc. They also allow backhauling of metering and status data and transmitter control.

I understand your point (and I'm aware that the 950 MHz spectrum in SoCal is quite congested) but T1s are also subject to "backhoe fade" and other extended outages when telco lines go down, not to mention the recurring monthly expense. One of my small market clients pays over $700/month for a circuit that runs less than 10 miles point to point. ($42K over the last five years) If he had a clear path, he would gladly replace it with a composite STL.

With proper engineering, a 950 MHz STL is probably more reliable in the long run, and of course there's something to be said for keeping the entire airchain under control of the station owner. It's very frustrating when all your eggs are in the T1 basket and you must sit and wait for hours for the phone company to respond to a trouble ticket. Even a bigger problem when the circuit crosses a LATA boundary and you must deal with multiple carriers who prefer to pass the buck, rather than troubleshoot.

 

[spunker88]

T1's are the preferred STL (of course, digital, too) as they are less prone to inversion layers, interference from other users in the band, etc. They also allow backhauling of metering and status data and transmitter control.

I see many towers around here with microwave antennas, probably because its a rural area and towers are often located on some back road with high elevation, and you are lucky to have electricity available.

 

[nd2023]

I think we're at the stage of when the IBUZ machine breaks, it's not worth fixing.

 

[Chuck]

Straight from the rumor mill, I'm told that KNON in Dallas has pulled the plug on their HD signal. They are a community supported non-commercial station with very diverse programming. The story is it was costing too much to operate with very little financial support.


Since I'm not in Dallas, I can't confirm this, but there is no longer any mention of HD on their web site.