A
ALRocker
Guest
How far out during the day and night can you hear a station on a regular basis on these 6 frequencies? Where I'm at in north Alabama, they're good for up to 45 miles or so. At night, nothing but a local on 1340.
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ALRocker said:
It's VERY dependent on ground conductivity - which isn't very good in north Alabama. (nor here in Middle Tennessee)
My experience is similar to yours. I have one 20 miles away on 1400 which is not really above the interference at night. (a 55-watt station on 540 is much more listenable)
I have poor ground conductivity at my location in Va., one local 1230 station is barely heard 35 miles away depending on what radio is used. On my best radio i can barely hear a 1340 station about 35 miles away, a 1490 station about 25 miles its signal just listenable. This is at home and during the middle of the day. At night it's like hundreds of stations fighting over the frequency to be heard and it's an unlistenable mess, I think about 15 to 20 miles range.
Perhaps off=topic by a bit, but when those GY stations from 20 or so miles away which have pretty appalling nighttime signals are clear and atop the frequency, you have an active Aurora going on. Closest ones to here are WAZL Haleton and WPAM Pottsville and both are really snuffed at night during 'normal' reception.
M
mobley
Guest
Good topic. I've seen Graveyards with no signal to speak of and some that got out pretty well. Of course, ground conductivity plays a major role. Also distance of co-channel stations. The FCC "shoe horned" a bunch of these in back in the old days. Examples: 1450 WOL in DC with a co-channel in Thurmont MD, WHAT in Philly and WMID in AC, about 55 miles. On 1450 you had Wilmington Del, Pleasantville (AC) NJ and New Brunswick NJ. With this short spacing, you're going to have interfernce withn 25 miles.
Here in the south, they tend to be at least 75-90 miles apart. Of course, if a station has a tower on the water, the salt path will take care of carrying that signal a long way. WMID can be heard on the Outer Banks of NC, for example. WNOR in Norfolk had an amazing night signal. I remember hearing it 20 miles out of Norfolk at night.
Bad signals included WFEC in Harrisburg back in the 60's & 70's. The tower was on a building and only got out about 4 miles at night. Also the legendary WAKE in Atlanta. Legend has it they were only good for about 4 miles at night and in the early 60's were #1. I remember WHSL in Wilmington NC was only 250 full time during the first couple of years they were on air. Even though at the coast, their signal was horrible. You could not hear them in the DAYTIME in Hampstead NC, only 15 miles away. Same for nearby Carolina Beach, about 15 miles away as well. There were kids that went to school with us who couldn't hear our local Top 40 DAY or Night.
Generally, I think Graveyarders are good for about 25 miles day and 9 miles at night.
Here in the south, they tend to be at least 75-90 miles apart. Of course, if a station has a tower on the water, the salt path will take care of carrying that signal a long way. WMID can be heard on the Outer Banks of NC, for example. WNOR in Norfolk had an amazing night signal. I remember hearing it 20 miles out of Norfolk at night.
Bad signals included WFEC in Harrisburg back in the 60's & 70's. The tower was on a building and only got out about 4 miles at night. Also the legendary WAKE in Atlanta. Legend has it they were only good for about 4 miles at night and in the early 60's were #1. I remember WHSL in Wilmington NC was only 250 full time during the first couple of years they were on air. Even though at the coast, their signal was horrible. You could not hear them in the DAYTIME in Hampstead NC, only 15 miles away. Same for nearby Carolina Beach, about 15 miles away as well. There were kids that went to school with us who couldn't hear our local Top 40 DAY or Night.
Generally, I think Graveyarders are good for about 25 miles day and 9 miles at night.
Wow, your mention of WMID brings back memories I hadn't thought of for decades! Living in New jersey right outside Philly, we used to go to the shore a lot and I remember liking the stronger and stronger signal we got from WMID getting closer to our destination. I would try to hear WMID back home but WHAT would always be so strong that I couldn't hear much. I see, according to the frequency quide, they now have .870 kw signal day and night. I may be mistaken but I thought they used to have a 1kw day and .250kw night signal way back in the early 70s.
Mobley -- back in Queens NYC overnight, WNOR was usually atop the channel. Perhaps the distance was 300 miles or so. Sometimes louder would be the closer WITH Baltimore. They went half-and-half. Very, VERY occasionally a third overnight signal would be heard. Harrisburg and WCOL Columbus put decent signals into good ol Metro JFK Airport at times. But 'normal' conditions, however they're situated or defined, meant that it was WNOR and WITH battling for the frequency in southern Queens late at night.
Queens is actually the farthest geographic poke into the ocean of NYC's five boroughs. So some water-path reception is expected. But even just fifteen miles farther from Queens, out further into the salt-water path, around Merrick or Wantagh along the south shore of Long Island, the water-path skip really cranks up. I recall a WGBB co-worker posting not that long back about him on Jones Beach, with WGBB's Freeport stick in full view across the bay, listening on the beach to WMID -- which was just as loud. And WTAR Norfolk on 790 at times could be as strong as WABC 770 in the daytime at Jones Beach. I had a car radio button set to 'Sevvventteeeeeee - Niiiiinnnnne' for the longest while.
Other daytime catches not ... even ...as ... far ... out as the Suffolk County line included WOBR 1530 North Carolina and the old WBOF 1550 Virginia Beach (on a clock radio, with WQXR 1560 on). Basically, you didn;t even have to 'try' for these stations. They were always there. I never DXed from as far out as the Hamptons or Montauk Point. Wow, that must be another world.
But every morning, when I lived and commuted out that far east for a short while, WGBB's graveyard signal would be sending its signal some sixty miles east, following the bays and eels and clams and gaining momentum, and crashing like gangbusters onto the Smith Point Bridge. So some of those GYers get out. On the flipside, to the west, WGBB's signal would ignore a lot of southern Queens at night -- and wind up blasting into Canarsie, Brooklyn. The neighborhood of Canarsie is situated sorta at the west rim of ripe Jamaica Bay. It was cool, to be able to listen on any car radio along that Belt Parkway stretch to The Vieser on WGBB, two counties and a thousand neighborhoods away.
Question for the tech folks here : Is daytime water-path propogation closer to groundwave or to skywave in execution and consistency?
In other words, once a WMID or a WGLI 1290 's signal touches the water, is the result akin to some steady, uncontrollable trajectory of a slalom -- a sliding car on black ice hopelessly out control of physics -- after which the signal crashes into the first landfall it encounters, or is there a skip of sorts, like when you fling a flat pebble onto the lake?
Queens is actually the farthest geographic poke into the ocean of NYC's five boroughs. So some water-path reception is expected. But even just fifteen miles farther from Queens, out further into the salt-water path, around Merrick or Wantagh along the south shore of Long Island, the water-path skip really cranks up. I recall a WGBB co-worker posting not that long back about him on Jones Beach, with WGBB's Freeport stick in full view across the bay, listening on the beach to WMID -- which was just as loud. And WTAR Norfolk on 790 at times could be as strong as WABC 770 in the daytime at Jones Beach. I had a car radio button set to 'Sevvventteeeeeee - Niiiiinnnnne' for the longest while.
Other daytime catches not ... even ...as ... far ... out as the Suffolk County line included WOBR 1530 North Carolina and the old WBOF 1550 Virginia Beach (on a clock radio, with WQXR 1560 on). Basically, you didn;t even have to 'try' for these stations. They were always there. I never DXed from as far out as the Hamptons or Montauk Point. Wow, that must be another world.
But every morning, when I lived and commuted out that far east for a short while, WGBB's graveyard signal would be sending its signal some sixty miles east, following the bays and eels and clams and gaining momentum, and crashing like gangbusters onto the Smith Point Bridge. So some of those GYers get out. On the flipside, to the west, WGBB's signal would ignore a lot of southern Queens at night -- and wind up blasting into Canarsie, Brooklyn. The neighborhood of Canarsie is situated sorta at the west rim of ripe Jamaica Bay. It was cool, to be able to listen on any car radio along that Belt Parkway stretch to The Vieser on WGBB, two counties and a thousand neighborhoods away.
Question for the tech folks here : Is daytime water-path propogation closer to groundwave or to skywave in execution and consistency?
In other words, once a WMID or a WGLI 1290 's signal touches the water, is the result akin to some steady, uncontrollable trajectory of a slalom -- a sliding car on black ice hopelessly out control of physics -- after which the signal crashes into the first landfall it encounters, or is there a skip of sorts, like when you fling a flat pebble onto the lake?
Is it ever! If you're ever in Nassau, Bahamas, check 1400. WFLL/Ft Lauderdale isn't robust, but it's clear & listenable at 191 miles over water.w9wi said:
When I was 16 (1964) my family spent a week on the beach in Oceanside, CA. I remember getting two Santa Barbara GY stations (KIST 1340 and KDB 1490) VERY CLEARLY during the day on my transistor radio. That's about 160 miles straight across salt water. Funny thing however, on the car radio, BOTH signals were lost about a mile inland from the beach. I am sure this reception would be considered "groundwave" along a salt water path. At night, when the skywave took over, both stations were lost in the mix...
when I lived in South Philly, I used to be able to get WMID 1340 from Atlantic City pretty darn clear by turning my transistor to null local WHAT. WMID had a good signal even inland. Another time, I was driving between Philly and Reading, home to another 1340, WRAW. I was tuned to WHAT, when another station started to come in. I assumed it was WRAW, but to my surprise...it was WMID, back in, skipping right over WHAT!!! After a few miles further, WRAW started to appear. Maybe that's why WMID cut back to 870 watts? Another graveyard observation...on the beach in Atlantic City, WGBB 1240 from Long Island was louder than the 50kw NYC stations.
On more thing, back in Philly, I noticed that on 1450, when a station broke thru the noise at night, it was often the same station...WWSC in Glens Falls NY. And up here in NW Connecticut, 60 miles north of Long Island Sound, a regular nighttime graveyard visitor on 1230 is WCMC in Wildwood NJ.
On more thing, back in Philly, I noticed that on 1450, when a station broke thru the noise at night, it was often the same station...WWSC in Glens Falls NY. And up here in NW Connecticut, 60 miles north of Long Island Sound, a regular nighttime graveyard visitor on 1230 is WCMC in Wildwood NJ.
Charleston's graveyards (1450 and 1340) don't have the strongest signal, but they have about average signals for graveyarders. 1340 and 1450 can be faintly heard on Hilton Head Island, 65 miles or so away, through the ground noise.
However, during the day, most good radios lose 1450 and 1340 at about 25 miles from the transmitter (less for 1450, as there's an adjacent channel station 50 miles away)
I can get graveyarders from throughout the SE on Folly Beach, as even WMOG from Brunswick at 1490 from almost 150 miles away comes in well all the way up in Charleston (away from the local 1480). When 1340 in Charleston is off the air, you can clearly hear WROD in Daytona Beach, from over 200 miles away.
However, during the day, most good radios lose 1450 and 1340 at about 25 miles from the transmitter (less for 1450, as there's an adjacent channel station 50 miles away)
I can get graveyarders from throughout the SE on Folly Beach, as even WMOG from Brunswick at 1490 from almost 150 miles away comes in well all the way up in Charleston (away from the local 1480). When 1340 in Charleston is off the air, you can clearly hear WROD in Daytona Beach, from over 200 miles away.
mobley said:
True - great station / no signal. Their tower was also on a building, which meant NO ground conductivity.
Late 60's - spent weekend with a buddy at FSU in Tallahassee. When we drove to the beach, we lost the the locals 20 miles out and replaced them with the regionals from Tampa/St.Pete skipping accross the Gulf.
I believe WSBC in Chicago on 1240 used to have a rooftop tower.
Their signal at night was impossible to hear 10 miles away.
Their signal at night was impossible to hear 10 miles away.
trusty said:
Ground conductivity is the property of the terrain between a transmitter and the listener.
Rooftop antennas with the proper counterpoise systems can radiate quite well. The ground system is simply a set of radials suspended over the roof and, usually, fastened to insulators at the end of each one.
The most efficient AM radiator of all, the Franklin antenna, needs no ground system at all to radiate (most stations with Franklin antennas had a ground system anyway for static discharge, etc.
The issue there is not the quality of the transmitter sites, but the dreadful conductivity which is pretty much like Long island, NY.
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No, it was WCRW...they had a terrible signal even in Morton Grove, so I concur with radioman since that was less than 10 miles away. And as I
recall, a lot of the time WCRW was at 250 watts back in the day before the FCC permitted a "full gallon" at night on the 'graveyarders'.
I remember when WSBC or WEDC signed off and it went to WCRW....arrrgh!!!!
The tower and counterpoise for WCRW probably was not the best designed or assembled during most of the years I had tuned them in, no matter,
their majority of their audience was most likely only the north side of Chicago...In the pictures it doesn't seem that the tower was anything near a
quarter wave, which would have been 198 feet, so WCRW must have had some kind of antenna tuner in order to compensate for the shorter tower.
"For its entire existence, WCRW was in the penthouse of the Embassy Hotel at 2756 N. Pine Grove at the corner of Diversey, on Chicago's Gold Coast."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WCRW
View of WCRW AM 1240 antenna on top of the building at 2756 N. Pine Grove, Chicago, Illinois.
Closer view of WCRW antenna. WCRW was absorbed by WSBC on July 1996.
http://www.nrcdxas.org/ Articles/Pics/Media > Photographs
WEDC was at 5475 N. Milwaukee, and WSBC the remaining station on the air is at 4949 W. Belmont.
radioman148 said:
No, it was WCRW...they had a terrible signal even in Morton Grove, so I concur with radioman since that was less than 10 miles away. And as I
recall, a lot of the time WCRW was at 250 watts back in the day before the FCC permitted a "full gallon" at night on the 'graveyarders'.
I remember when WSBC or WEDC signed off and it went to WCRW....arrrgh!!!!
The tower and counterpoise for WCRW probably was not the best designed or assembled during most of the years I had tuned them in, no matter,
their majority of their audience was most likely only the north side of Chicago...In the pictures it doesn't seem that the tower was anything near a
quarter wave, which would have been 198 feet, so WCRW must have had some kind of antenna tuner in order to compensate for the shorter tower.
"For its entire existence, WCRW was in the penthouse of the Embassy Hotel at 2756 N. Pine Grove at the corner of Diversey, on Chicago's Gold Coast."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WCRW
View of WCRW AM 1240 antenna on top of the building at 2756 N. Pine Grove, Chicago, Illinois.
Closer view of WCRW antenna. WCRW was absorbed by WSBC on July 1996.
http://www.nrcdxas.org/ Articles/Pics/Media > Photographs
WEDC was at 5475 N. Milwaukee, and WSBC the remaining station on the air is at 4949 W. Belmont.
You're right WCRW was the one. WSBC was strong relatively speaking.
stormy01 said:
The fact that all 3 stations on 1240 were/are located on the north and northwest side of Chicago allows WJOB 1230 Hammond IN to exist, covering the south side and NW Indiana with little or no interference between 1230 and 1240. I can't think of any other metro area where adjacent channels are allowed so close together. WSBC's and WJOB's towers are about 25 miles apart.
KeithE4 said:
And you can hear them all well locally during the day.
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