The Great Houston translator invasion

[The Rimshot]

Aside from the "boombox" comment being an inaccurate stereotype of where non-mobile radio listening occurs, it's not just Nielsen that tells us where listening occurs.

David, I would invite you to do your own research and not just take Nielsen's word for it. Several people here feel like I do, Joe Donalson, robertsez, I feel like PurpleDevil would be on my side on this as well, etc. (so would Peter Frampton). Only a small percentage of folks own a box radio anymore, and for the ones that do, they don't tote it to work to listen to it. You can stream anything off your desktop at work, or your phone, whichever is more accessible.

I do not believe for a second that the majority of "terrestrial radio" listening is done outside of the car.

You are aware of Scientific Misconduct and Social Desirability Bias, aren't you?

Also, DavidEduardo, I believe if Nielsen told you that the majority of porn consumption was via VHS and not the internet, yes, you would believe it, because you are choosing to believe a fairy tale that folks consume terrestrial radio via a radio box at home/work. Use your life experiences, for God's sake. When was the last time you walked into someone's home and saw them listening to a radio box? Milton from Office Space listens to the radio (at a reasonable volume) not on a boombox, but via an online stream.

I would also encourage you to review these articles:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1182327/

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2012/sep/13/scientific-research-fraud-bad-practice

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_misconduct

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_desirability_bias

 

[TheBigA]

I would invite you to do your own research and not just take Nielsen's word for it.

I'm still waiting to see YOUR research that proves what you're saying, other than a few anecdotal experiences in Houston. Actual, documented, quantitative analysis that has been presented to an independent, accredited board who assess your methodology, that is accepted by more than a handful of anonymous posters on a message board.

Research isn't a reality TV show, where people vote the ones they don't like off the island. We're talking about facts here. Present some. I'm waiting.

 

[b-turner]

The Rimshot: I see, Nielsen, a company that exists to provide research is inaccurate but volunteer written wikipedia and a newspaper, theguardian, and somehow medical research studies certainly trumps any radio findings. Your logic makes about as much sense as going to Discount Tire because you have a flat tire and asking if I want ketchup with that. Who is paying for your credibility? The Rimshot: Why don't you do your own research? Start your own research company.

I want to listen to KJFP and several others. You say I can stream anything. Find their stream for me, I can't. Please give me that link.

 

[latinoradio]

Some people have clearly never worked in the ppm world or have seen how nielsen operates.

 

[TheBigA]

The Rimshot: I see, Nielsen, a company that exists to provide research is inaccurate

Exactly...you don't challenge facts with opinion. You challenge them with documented facts. That's how Sir Isaac Newton challenged the conventional wisdom of his time. That's how Christopher Columbus challenged the thinking that the world is flat. Just because someone doesn't believe documented facts doesn't automatically make personal opinion valid. Those opinions have to be tested in the same way. We're not talking about "personal life experiences."

 

[purpledevil]

Rimshot, you seem like a nice guy, but I don't find myself "on your side" in your argument.

Let me see if I can explain this to you in a way that you, as a fellow listener, will understand. Sorry if I step on a nerve, I'm not much of a PC type.

David Eduardo, Big A, Michael Hagerty, Chuck Tiller, Robertsez, and any other person involved in radio aren't at fault here. Now, in some cases, I know for sure. In others, I can only wager a guess, but my take on it is that they all have a family to support, or at the very least, must continue their own basic survival. That happens via a paycheck. I can't tell you how many times I have read how you, as a listener, don't matter in the grand scheme of things around here.

Think of it in my line of business for a moment, and step away from specific radio aspect of the whole argument. I know, it's hard...I mean, that's what keeps us coming back here for more and more, right?

I work in hospitality. If you are in one of my properties, and you have paid for accommodations within the property, then you are a valued guest and I'm going to bend over backwards for you. There are going to be times, many, that my guest is dead wrong. "I told you I wanted this conference room set in a U-shape. You've set it up in theater style!" But, but, I have it right here on the contract that you verified and signed, stating it was to be set up in a theater formation.

Do you think I'm going to argue with my guest who could've gone to endless other chains of hotels to have their meeting, wedding, sweet 16, 15, or whatever? Would I have my paycheck direct deposited for much longer if I decided to make a big production over it? No, Rimshot, I'm going to apologize for the miscommunication on my staff's part, hustle a crew together, and set the damn thing they way they now want it. This is akin to the relationship between radio people like David and ol' A, and the businesses advertising on their slew of stations. They know full well that a significant portion of the product they air is far from entertaining, but it is the course they must take to maintain the continued relationship with their guest...or customer, as it were. They paid for the service, they get catered to.

Do you think that one of the men I have previously mentioned doesn't know how to provide quality entertainment? I can assure you that they can, and in David's case, has many decades of tenure within the medium doing just that. But that's not what the advertising community wants. Entertainment is the theater set up, and a U shape of about 100 songs or less, with no desire to turn some of these truly talented personalities like John Davis loose, and let radio be entertaining and interactive is being demanded by the customer, so guess what's going to happen? Yep, you're going to succumb to the paying customer that ensures your own continued survival.

The only other option, is to have the timing and a little luck of C-Dub, or user "Continuous Wave" since you are still a newbie around here. Find someone looking to get out of owning a dog of a station, pick it up for a price that a common, working man can afford, and air whatever you want on it, advertiser (or customer, if you will) be damned.

You, as well as me, fall into a different category. We are considered the undesirable trespasser on the property. Always looking for a bathroom, or the free use of a phone, and while your not looking I'm going to heist a donut from your pastry cart, kind of trespasser. Listeners usurp the service, free of charge. We, as such, mean squat to the industry, and ends up leading to a quick, low key banishment by the "loss prevention officer".

You're welcome to take a tinkle here, but become a nuisance and its time for you to go, because you're not a paying customer. That's us, Rimshot. The listener. I'm not about to attempt to change the industry standard in my profession, even though there are standards still very much active within it, that are more suited for the 19th century than the 21st. Neither are these gentlemen. Why would they? They make good money maintaining the status quo.

I get where you are at, in your experience with the medium, as it is. I just understand full well that if you tried to get me to "reinvent the wheel" and jeopardize my livelihood, I'd politely laugh at you.

Not to put words in another man's mouth, but I'd suspect that the man you are unfairly attacking, would be too.

 

[davideduardo]

David, I would invite you to do your own research and not just take Nielsen's word for it.

I do. For over a decade I managed the internal research division of a broadcast company. We had astaff of over 40 doing all manner of in-person and call center research. While out focus was on the content of specific radio stations, we coincidentally obtained listenership data. In all cases, it closely coincided with the data from Nielsen. The total investment in that division during my stewardship was in the tens of millions of dollars.

Several people here feel like I do, Joe Donalson, robertsez, I feel like PurpleDevil would be on my side on this as well, etc. (so would Peter Frampton). Only a small percentage of folks own a box radio anymore, and for the ones that do, they don't tote it to work to listen to it. You can stream anything off your desktop at work, or your phone, whichever is more accessible.

The statistics are clear that 80% of households have radios.

And, more important, most people do not work at a desk. They work in factories, on loading docks, doing landscaping, stocking shelves, keeping hotels in shape, etc.

None of the people you mention have managed, owned or programmed a significant radio station (and I do not mean a pirate station or an LPFM or equivalent). None of the group you mention would be able to run SPSS and do factor analysis on some data, and would be mystified by a equation with ϵ in it.

I do not believe for a second that the majority of "terrestrial radio" listening is done outside of the car.

And you are miserably and abysmally wrong. Next.

You are aware of Scientific Misconduct and Social Desirability Bias, aren't you?

That area, which includes both interviewer bias and questionnaire bias, principally applies to situations where perceptual research is done in person. It does not apply to media surveys, whether by Nielsen, Numeris, Eastlan, IBOPE, IPSOS or whomever might conduct them today.

Also, DavidEduardo, I believe if Nielsen told you that the majority of porn consumption was via VHS and not the internet, yes, you would believe it, because you are choosing to believe a fairy tale that folks consume terrestrial radio via a radio box at home/work.

I believe in verification. That is why I have supported and worked with the MRC on certain sampling issues in the past, and why I closely examine methodology and sample / panel statistics to insure that proportionality is achieved on all stratification variables within the limits of budget and statistical error.

As stated in a different post, I have also been so engaged in verification that I have caused a number of Arbitron books and Arbitrends to be re-tabulated and re-released. I've actually sat in an Arbitron call center and made "test environment" recruiting and follow up calls to see the system at work. And I have perused raw Arbitron data going back as far as 1970.

Et tu?

I would also encourage you to review these articles:

Two of those links have to do with scientific research and involve procedures that have nothing to do with consumer research. The first one is really a statement of the obvious: if you ask the wrong questions, you get the wrong answers. The final one, regarding "expected behavior" is particularly irrelevant in the PPM word and barely an influence in the diary world.

Experienced consumer behavior researchers are able to insure that recruiting and any interviewing involved is devoid of any noxious effects of cultural bias, interviewer bias or cultural disconnect due to language or expression.

All these explanations show why your impressions are just simply wrong. We've been using audience research in radio for about 85 years, and have managed to get it right nearly all of the time in the last 75 or 80 of those!

 

[davideduardo]

Great perspective, Purple. Thank you for the post.

Just as you care about the paying guests, we care about the listeners who give us large numbers of quarter hours. All the principles of dealing with guests apply!

 

[The Rimshot]

I do. For over a decade I managed the internal research division of a broadcast company. We had astaff of over 40 doing all manner of in-person and call center research. While out focus was on the content of specific radio stations, we coincidentally obtained listenership data. In all cases, it closely coincided with the data from Nielsen. The total investment in that division during my stewardship was in the tens of millions of dollars.

I believe you are being sold a bill of goods. I think you are out of touch with current listeners.

In 1996, home/work did outweigh car radio listeners.

In 2006, home/work probably still outweighed car radio listeners, although MP3, iPod and desktop listening are rising.

In 2016? There is no way. It's all about the laptop, desktop, and the phone (mostly the phone).

My blinders are off.

Purple, I'm disappointed in your stance, but it's yours to take. I'll ask you this: When was the last time a guest became upset because the radio in their room didn't work, or, do you even have terrestrial radio receivers in your rooms???

Again, there is no way you are going to convince me that the majority still own a "radio box" and are listening to terrestrial radio at home or work.

Go into the homes of these listeners. Go to the workplace. There won't be a single radio box in sight.

/thread

 

[frankberry]

Rimshot,

You have started a circular argument .... just repeating yourself.
It appears that you know nothing about the broadcasting industry.
It also appears that you are unwilling to learn anything from people who have many decades of experience.

I think it's time that you agree to disagree.

 

[The Rimshot]

Hi Frank,

I agree, and that's why I typed, "/thread" (meaning, "end thread").

Let me say that I can be "someone who knows nothing about the broadcasting industry" and be qualified enough to tell you that if someone (even if it's Rick Dees or Vin Scully) tells you that the majority of people listen to terrestrial radio via home/work and not in the car, it's complete bull sh*t.

Thanks for all you do,

The Rimshot

 

[latinoradio]

Guess nielsen must have it wrong.. I wonder if these billion dollar companies that spend crazy money to subscribe are aware of this new update. David eduardo.. Care to share how the samples change every so often and how the panels pretty much share similar listening behaviors that proof how in 2016 people still have a radio.

 

[davideduardo]

I believe you are being sold a bill of goods. I think you are out of touch with current listeners.

Gee, the last time I did some extensive audience research was... let me think... oh, yeah, last week!

In 1996, home/work did outweigh car radio listeners.

In 2006, home/work probably still outweighed car radio listeners, although MP3, iPod and desktop listening are rising.

In 2016? There is no way. It's all about the laptop, desktop, and the phone (mostly the phone).

You are interpreting the use of MP3s and iPods to substitute radio. They actually substitute CD players. Which substituted cassette players. Which substituted record players. Generally, heavier users of music storage devices are also heavier users of real time OTA radio.

Desktop listening is declining. Cellphone listening is increasing.

My blinders are off.

But you are blinded, instead, by your self-constructed alternate reality.

Again, there is no way you are going to convince me that the majority still own a "radio box" and are listening to terrestrial radio at home or work.

Fortunately, the radio industry does not need self-proclaimed "experts" who have no expertise in the social sciences and research methodology. We spend, collectively, hundreds of millions every year for Nielsen research, consumer research and proprietary station research.

We, as an industry and as individuals, never see any of the things you talk about, despite having around 100,000 people employed in the radio stations of the country and nearly as many in the related fields.

Yes, there is a trend for Millennial homes to have no radio. It will affect the industry progressively as years go by. Yes, there is a migration to online listening via smartphones, but radio stations know that they have to be platform agnostic and compete using new technology.

But, no, most radio listening does not occur in the car. In-car is a growing percentage, but the growth is at a very slow rate and it is not the majority now.

Go into the homes of these listeners. Go to the workplace.

Every quarter, Nielsen diaries, which collect listening location data on about a quarter million persons, show where listening takes place. Participants in the local market surveys in over 200 MSAs indicate where each listening incident takes place... home, work, the car or "other".

When you are ready to survey a quarter of a million people, please do let us know.

There won't be a single radio box in sight.

That is your reality. But it is a parallel reality. Rod Serling would be proud of you.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-b5aW08ivHU

 

[davideduardo]

Guess nielsen must have it wrong.. I wonder if these billion dollar companies that spend crazy money to subscribe are aware of this new update. David eduardo.. Care to share how the samples change every so often and how the panels pretty much share similar listening behaviors that proof how in 2016 people still have a radio.

Nielsen revises the sample specifications every year, using the data from the Census Bureau's ACS annual poll. They buy additional tabulations from independent demographic processors and their own division which provides demographic data to marketers and the other Nielsen companies.

Since Nielsen samples try to mirror each market on a whole lot of characteristics, called stratification variables, they have sample quotes by age, gender, ethnicity, education, income, market geography, etc. So there is a strong intent to make the sample "just like" the the market.

The market demographics are adjusted each October for the Fall diary book and the October PPM survey. That means that the sample specifications and weight change each year.

A common misconception is the belief that Nielsen only measures radio listeners. That's not true; they measure a proportional sample of each market and specifically find out the radio listening they do... or do not do.

 

[davideduardo]

Let me say that I can be ... qualified enough to tell you that if someone tells you that the majority of people listen to terrestrial radio via home/work and not in the car, it's complete bull sh*t.

No, you can't.

Only if you do a proportional sample of either a market area or the nation with a significant n to be able to establish the margin of error and thus determine a degree of confidence can you make such a statement.

 

[The Rimshot]

Hi David,

Frank asked for a ceasefire regarding this discussion.

That applies to you as well.

Regards,

The Rimshot

 

[purpledevil]

I believe you are being sold a bill of goods. I think you are out of touch with current listeners.

In 1996, home/work did outweigh car radio listeners.

In 2006, home/work probably still outweighed car radio listeners, although MP3, iPod and desktop listening are rising.

In 2016? There is no way. It's all about the laptop, desktop, and the phone (mostly the phone).

My blinders are off.

Purple, I'm disappointed in your stance, but it's yours to take. I'll ask you this: When was the last time a guest became upset because the radio in their room didn't work, or, do you even have terrestrial radio receivers in your rooms???

Again, there is no way you are going to convince me that the majority still own a "radio box" and are listening to terrestrial radio at home or work.

Go into the homes of these listeners. Go to the workplace. There won't be a single radio box in sight.

/thread

At least once a day. Each of our in room "radio boxes" doubles as an alarm clock. You'd be surprised as to how many people have an alarm on their smart phone, yet they still rely on an alarm clock or one of my clerks to perform a wake up call, so as to not oversleep their flight. As for use of the AM/FM built in receiver, yes you are correct, complaints on the actual radio itself are minimal. We, as a corporation, no longer produce a radio station linep for the in room directory either. We do still produce a television channel guide annually.

I'm not attempting to convince you of anything, sir, and I'm sorry that you are less than impressed with my response, but it is what it is. I am a homeowner, in a densely populated neighborhood. Each of my neighbors have at least one receiver within their home that is AM/FM capable. Perhaps, that's because I live in an economically challenged part of town, or perhaps that's because of the demographics of the 'hood that I live in.

Either way, your statement that few people own a traditional "radio box" in today's world is wildly inaccurate. I own 3 large receivers alone, and that doesn't even count the 2 handheld receivers, the AM/FM tuner on my mp3 player, the AM/FM tuner on my portable TV, nor the one on my WX radio.

Oh, and I have to tell you, most General Managers in our particular chain have some type of "boom box" in their offices. As long as it doesn't disturb the business at hand going on at the desk, I not only accept the practice, but encourage it. You've got to have some amount of personal joy and satisfaction, in such a thankless position.

 

[purpledevil]

Hi David,

Frank asked for a ceasefire regarding this discussion.

That applies to you as well.

Regards,

The Rimshot

Um, what?

He stated that you "have started a circular argument" and were apparently "unwilling to learn from people who have many decades of experience".

The only "ceasefire" requested, has now been done so by you. I'm not trying to attack you. Man, I've already got enough people on here that despise me for my 1970's tell it like I see it way of putting things into perspective. I see your point, I'll defend your right to state it freely, but I don't see eye to eye with it. That's all.

 

[TheBigA]

Again, there is no way you are going to convince me that the majority still own a "radio box" and are listening to terrestrial radio at home or work.

No one is trying to convince you of anything. There's no reason to. You don't pay for radio.

 

[davideduardo]

Hi David,

Frank asked for a ceasefire regarding this discussion.

That applies to you as well.

I interpreted the message as admonishing your unwillingness to learn about the radio industry and repeatedly saying that gold standard research and research methods are "bu****t" was at the point where you don't need to say it any more.