The ideal adult standards format

[semoochie]

You seem to be talking to yourself, Michael!

On a more serious note, what does "Wishin' and Hopin'" have to do with the PC nightmare that is "Wives & Lovers"? It is clearly a young girl giving reasonable advice to one or more young girls.

I left the thread momentarily to check the lyrics and inadvertently turned off the browser. I was surprised to find that upon my return, my post had been accepted, even though I didn't attempt to post it!

 

[CTListener]

You don't know about "The Love Boat"?

I know of the theme, but wasn't a regular viewer of the show and was never curious about who was singing. The version I remember best is the arrangement used by the band of the high school football team I was covering as a sportswriter for a small newspaper in the late '70s. It was part of the halftime performance the whole season, along with an excellent arrangement of the Ritchie Family's "The Best Disco in Town."

 

[CTListener]

On a more serious note, what does "Wishin' and Hopin'" have to do with the PC nightmare that is "Wives & Lovers"? It is clearly a young girl giving reasonable advice to one or more young girls.

I'm guessing that some women of today might object to the song's implied subtext that making oneself desirable to and attracting a man should be the primary goal in a woman's life. Sandy Posey's trilogy of mid-'60s titles -- "Born a Woman," "I Take It Back," and "Single Girl" -- are more extreme examples of that sort of thinking; in two of them, Posey admits that abuse or neglect by the man she loves is all part of being a woman.

 

[semoochie]

I'm guessing that some women of today might object to the song's implied subtext that making oneself desirable to and attracting a man should be the primary goal in a woman's life. Sandy Posey's trilogy of mid-'60s titles -- "Born a Woman," "I Take It Back," and "Single Girl" -- are more extreme examples of that sort of thinking; in two of them, Posey admits that abuse or neglect by the man she loves is all part of being a woman.

I don't think it's implied at all. I think you have inferred it. It's a love song and as such, its primary goal is attracting or keeping the other person's interest. Keep in mind that these are songs for and presumably by teenagers. It could just as easily be a guy singing and directing his comments to other guys about how to attract or keep a girl. Again, these are songs for and presumably by teenagers. This is why The Beatles singing, "She was just 17. You know what I mean" isn't offensive, even though they were in their 20s.

 

[michael hagerty]

You seem to be talking to yourself, Michael!

Well, apparently I won't be mistaken for a screenplay writer...

 

[michael hagerty]

Sean Ross of "Ross on Radio" summed up the situation of younger listeners and older songs really well:

One reason songs fade with time is because subsequent generations don’t attach the same feelings to them; for retro-sounding songs, listeners not only have to carry memories of what songs meant to them in (insert year here), but they also have to summon their memories of an earlier era (or, if they’re under retirement age, what they learned from parents or American Graffiti.)

That's pulled from his most recent "lost factor" piece---taking a look at the hottest songs of the first half of the 1970s that don't get played anymore and the songs that still do, that---in a lot of cases---weren't the biggest hits at the time:

Top 100 Lost Songs of 1970-74 - RadioInsight

The song with the second-highest “Lost Factor” of the early ‘70s is hard to hear on the radio now. But it was also hard to hear Chuck Berry on the radio in 1972. I was in New York when “My Ding-a-Ling” was on its way to No. 1. But Top 40 powerhouse WABC added it, […]

radioinsight.com

 

[vchimpanzee]

I don't think it's implied at all. I think you have inferred it. It's a love song and as such, its primary goal is attracting or keeping the other person's interest. Keep in mind that these are songs for and presumably by teenagers. It could just as easily be a guy singing and directing his comments to other guys about how to attract or keep a girl. Again, these are songs for and presumably by teenagers. This is why The Beatles singing, "She was just 17. You know what I mean" isn't offensive, even though they were in their 20s.

Jack Jones was singing to teenagers? I don't think so.

 

[vchimpanzee]

Sean Ross of "Ross on Radio" summed up the situation of younger listeners and older songs really well:

One reason songs fade with time is because subsequent generations don’t attach the same feelings to them; for retro-sounding songs, listeners not only have to carry memories of what songs meant to them in (insert year here), but they also have to summon their memories of an earlier era (or, if they’re under retirement age, what they learned from parents or American Graffiti.)

That's pulled from his most recent "lost factor" piece---taking a look at the hottest songs of the first half of the 1970s that don't get played anymore and the songs that still do, that---in a lot of cases---weren't the biggest hits at the time:

Top 100 Lost Songs of 1970-74 - RadioInsight

The song with the second-highest “Lost Factor” of the early ‘70s is hard to hear on the radio now. But it was also hard to hear Chuck Berry on the radio in 1972. I was in New York when “My Ding-a-Ling” was on its way to No. 1. But Top 40 powerhouse WABC added it, […]

radioinsight.com

When Radio Disney still had radio stations, they played oldies. It is possible for kids to like older songs once they learn about them.

Also, it was true in the 90s that young people were enjoying swing music.

Most of the songs that are older than I am, or at least so old I don't remember them from when they were first popular, I enjoyed once I heard them. I know. I'm an outlier. I've heard this.

The musical style for a lot of these songs, though, was all over TV when I was a child. So it's no wonder I like that style of music.

And a children's special last night about The Grinch certainly wasn't doing hip-hop of alternative rock. They did the music from the 1966 special and similar sytles.

 

[CTListener]

Also, it was true in the 90s that young people were enjoying swing music.

A fad, largely over and done with within a year and a half. And it was only a tiny fraction as popular in the age group as disco and new wave had been in previous years.

 

[michael hagerty]

Jack Jones was singing to teenagers? I don't think so.

vchimp: He's talking about "Wishing and Hoping".

 

[michael hagerty]

When Radio Disney still had radio stations, they played oldies. It is possible for kids to like older songs once they learn about them.

Also, it was true in the 90s that young people were enjoying swing music.

Most of the songs that are older than I am, or at least so old I don't remember them from when they were first popular, I enjoyed once I heard them. I know. I'm an outlier. I've heard this.

The musical style for a lot of these songs, though, was all over TV when I was a child. So it's no wonder I like that style of music.

And a children's special last night about The Grinch certainly wasn't doing hip-hop of alternative rock. They did the music from the 1966 special and similar sytles.

Radio Disney was aimed at pre-teens, and it wasn't intended to deliver an audience for outside advertising. It was intended to drive Disney video, film, parks, cruises and merchandise.

Kids generally don't get a point of reference on old vs. new music until adolescence. It was years before I realized that the music in the Warner Bros. cartoons was 40s-based---because the cartoons themselves were from the 40s.

Some people, like you and I, connect with entertainment from before our time or during our childhoods. I remember Perry Como and Andy Williams on TV, too. But my friends on the block didn't care until the Beatles showed up on Ed Sullivan. Most people hook into stuff from their own era. I did, but I retained a fondness for the Great American Songbook stuff, which morphed into an appreciation of jazz in my adolescence.

As for The Grinch, that's the same as Christmas music on the radio---it's a tradition. We watched it every year from the year it premiered on network TV. I don't think I bothered tuning in when I was a teen, or a single adult, but when I had kids, that became part of their tradition. It's now part of my grandkids' tradition. But, in the same way that nobody's ordering cranberry sauce and egg nog at Memorial Day barbecues, it's a seasonal thing.

 

[semoochie]

vchimp: He's talking about "Wishing and Hoping".

Thank you for coming to my rescue, Michael! This seems to happen to me a lot. I try to present things in a way that is clear and makes sense but every now and then, my point is missed completely! Do you think I'm doing something wrong?

 

[michael hagerty]

Thank you for coming to my rescue, Michael! This seems to happen to me a lot. I try to present things in a way that is clear and makes sense but every now and then, my point is missed completely! Do you think I'm doing something wrong?

No, vchimpanzee actually explained in one of these posts when he says he doesn't really pay attention to lyrics.

When you said "If Generation Z knew about "Wives and Lovers" they'd be out in the street, protesting", I think vchimpanzee took it as they'd be demanding to know why they didn't have such songs as opposed to current hits---and he lumped "Wishing and Hoping" into that category (not having realized the lyrical issue with "Wives and Lovers").

You were still on "Wives and Lovers", and thinking the protest would be on PC grounds, and he wasn't. So you asked why the two songs would be lumped together, explained why (in your example) "Wishing and Hoping" didn't belong, and then he thought you were talking about Jack Jones.

About all you can do is to be specific and say "Wishing and Hoping" instead of "it" when making reference.

And all this I've learned from the dozens of people who've edited my copy for---dear God---50 years this coming April.

Don't feel bad---I still keep them VERY busy.

(edit: As proven by the last sentence. My editor would change that to "Don't feel badly". )

 

[CTListener]

Don't feel bad---I still keep them VERY busy.

(edit: As proven by the last sentence. My editor would change that to "Don't feel badly". )

I wouldn't. "Feel bad" is perfectly fine. "Feel badly" indicates something wrong with one's sense of touch.

 

[michael hagerty]

I wouldn't. "Feel bad" is perfectly fine. "Feel badly" indicates something wrong with one's sense of touch.

From Merriam-Webster:


The common wisdom is that it's a case of "hypercorrection": we apply a rule of grammar in a situation that isn't quite the right one, and the result is a nonstandard linguistic form or construction. In this particular case, people who have learned to favor "it hurt badly" over "it hurt bad," and "need it badly" over "need it bad," use "feel badly" because they assume it is similarly superior to "feel bad."

If this is the case, though, why don't we also hear "I feel sadly" or "I feel angrily"? And why don't we also hear constructions like "smell awfully" and "look deliciously"?

As we said above, most linking verbs can also be used as regular old action verbs. Pies look delicious (where look is a linking verb), but we can also look at pies (where look is an action verb). Feel can also be an action verb, and when it's functioning as an action verb it's commonly followed by an adverb:

I feel strongly that the pies should be shared equally.

And that's where the goofy grammarian's joke about people who feel badly being unable to experience tactile sensations or being capable only of apathy comes from.

But some people make a considered distinction between feel bad and feel badly, choosing feel bad when feel is about physical health and feel badly when feel is about an emotional state. Others switch them with just as much intention. These uses are established enough that some dictionaries (including Merriam-Webster Unabridged) cover badly as an adjective; it is, after all, following a linking verb.

 

[semoochie]

From Merriam-Webster:


The common wisdom is that it's a case of "hypercorrection": we apply a rule of grammar in a situation that isn't quite the right one, and the result is a nonstandard linguistic form or construction. In this particular case, people who have learned to favor "it hurt badly" over "it hurt bad," and "need it badly" over "need it bad," use "feel badly" because they assume it is similarly superior to "feel bad."

If this is the case, though, why don't we also hear "I feel sadly" or "I feel angrily"? And why don't we also hear constructions like "smell awfully" and "look deliciously"?

As we said above, most linking verbs can also be used as regular old action verbs. Pies look delicious (where look is a linking verb), but we can also look at pies (where look is an action verb). Feel can also be an action verb, and when it's functioning as an action verb it's commonly followed by an adverb:


And that's where the goofy grammarian's joke about people who feel badly being unable to experience tactile sensations or being capable only of apathy comes from.

But some people make a considered distinction between feel bad and feel badly, choosing feel bad when feel is about physical health and feel badly when feel is about an emotional state. Others switch them with just as much intention. These uses are established enough that some dictionaries (including Merriam-Webster Unabridged) cover badly as an adjective; it is, after all, following a linking verb.

It is at this point that my wife tells me to call my sister and discuss it with her.

On the other point, I DID say "PC"! I thought that would clarify it. It never occurred to me that he would mistake my comments for the idea that large groups of young people would flock to what is, from my perspective, roughly the equivalent to a continuous diet of George M. Cohan! By the way, did you see "Yankee Doodle Dandy"? By the end of the movie, Cohan is an old man and meets some teenagers who have never heard of him or his songs and are quite taken by a current song, "Barney Google(with his Goo-Goo-Googly Eyes)"! To be fair, this was apparently "poetic license". The song in question is from 1923, making him 45 at the time and still within five years of tremendous fame. He would go on to more success after 1930 with public engagements. Thank you for your help.

 

[vchimpanzee]

I remember Perry Como and Andy Williams on TV, too.

I don't. I didn't even know who Perry Como was, and Andy Williams was just a man on one of my parents' Christmas albums. Along with Maurice Chevalier, Sammy Davis Jr., Steve Lawrence, Danny Kaye and Richard Tucker. And the women were Eydie, Dinah Shore and Diahann Carroll. Eugene Ormandy on that album led an orchestra.

The shows I was referring to had Red Skelton, Jackie Gleason, Lucille Ball, Flip Wilson and of course Ed Sullivan. There were also the cartoons with Tom and Jerry, Bugs Bunny and many others. I didn't even realize these were old.

 

[vchimpanzee]

When you said "If Generation Z knew about "Wives and Lovers" they'd be out in the street, protesting", I think vchimpanzee took it as they'd be demanding to know why they didn't have such songs as opposed to current hits---and he lumped "Wishing and Hoping" into that category (not having realized the lyrical issue with "Wives and Lovers").

You were still on "Wives and Lovers", and thinking the protest would be on PC grounds, and he wasn't. So you asked why the two songs would be lumped together, explained why (in your example) "Wishing and Hoping" didn't belong, and then he thought you were talking about Jack Jones.

No, I've heard these lyrics, They're very un-PC. They don't bother me because that's just how people felt back then.

 

[vchimpanzee]

And while I still don't remember the one other song I knew (a woman from the late 50s and maybe a title starting with the letter S), I was reminded by hearing a similar song on "Magnum, P.I." that I forgot to list "Tiny Bubbles" by Don Ho as one of the songs I heard on WHVN.

 

[vchimpanzee]

Sean Ross of "Ross on Radio" summed up the situation of younger listeners and older songs really well:

One reason songs fade with time is because subsequent generations don’t attach the same feelings to them; for retro-sounding songs, listeners not only have to carry memories of what songs meant to them in (insert year here), but they also have to summon their memories of an earlier era (or, if they’re under retirement age, what they learned from parents or American Graffiti.)

That's pulled from his most recent "lost factor" piece---taking a look at the hottest songs of the first half of the 1970s that don't get played anymore and the songs that still do, that---in a lot of cases---weren't the biggest hits at the time:

Top 100 Lost Songs of 1970-74 - RadioInsight

The song with the second-highest “Lost Factor” of the early ‘70s is hard to hear on the radio now. But it was also hard to hear Chuck Berry on the radio in 1972. I was in New York when “My Ding-a-Ling” was on its way to No. 1. But Top 40 powerhouse WABC added it, […]

radioinsight.com

Quite a few of the songs on that list are still getting played on America's Best Music.