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The impact for radio? Is the big P Doomed?

I agree that the stock is a crap shoot. Pandora has had a number of brushes with death in its 10+ year existence. I think they can survive the competition but if something isn't done about the royalties, astronomically higher than radio pays, they will sink and so will other services. If so, only then will those resisting changing the current formula realize that they overplayed their hand. High rates do them no good if the volume of payments is low.
 
This is old news and the message is the same. Pandora has an unsustainable business model which will eventually drive it out of biz unless substantial changes, some legal, are made (unlikely).
 
I think it's a well-written article that is very realistic about the problems facing Pandora. I spend a lot of my time with people on the recording business side, people who are either at labels or publishing companies. I've seen Tim Westergren speak to these folks, and tell them how much of his company's money goes to royalties, and he gets a standing ovation. The industry loves him. And at the same time, they're killing him. They can't see how their royalties are destroying him. One label head said, "Your business model is not our problem." That's not good.

Pandora's competition negotiates directly with the labels. They get a better rate. Tim is a former musician, and he doesn't want to cheat labels or artists. But his devotion to the music will ultimately hurt his company, because they don't care. The labels don't want anyone else to profit from their music but them. Internet radio should have destroyed on-air. But it can't because it's handicapped by the very companies that benefit most from it's success. Everyone in radio can learn a lot by watching what's going on here.

But you ask a great question: What's the impact for radio? The key is negotiating for a better royalty rate. What CC is doing is leveraging their on-air revenues to get a better digital streaming rate. That's critical to OTA radio. The future is digital, and a deal needs to be made now, while OTA is still vital, that will benefit digital down the road. CC's IHeartRadio has become a formidable competitor for Pandora. There will be more. But it makes no sense to music industry will willingly give OTA a better deal than Pandora. But if they kill off what should have been a successful company, it will definitely hurt them in the eyes of Congress, who is still considering imposing a similar royalty on OTA radio.
 
I used to think that Pandora, which painstakingly built its programming capabilities using musicologists applying the Music Genome project, had such a head start that no late comer could catch up. A lot of people still think that because of that methodology, Pandora builds better custom stations despite fewer songs. 900,000 songs is still a lot of songs. But I was apparently wrong in thinking that most customers know or care about the programming differences. They see that iHeart radio and Spotify offer more songs, 20 million according to the posted article, and that's what matters to them.
 
They see that iHeart radio and Spotify offer more songs, 20 million according to the posted article, and that's what matters to them.

It is just a ad gimmick. Bigger is better. The average listener probably knows about 5,000
songs or less from their favorite genre of music. So the other 19 million songs are for the musicologist out there.

I'm willing to bet Brown Eyed Girl, Three Doors Down, and, Beyonce' are on the top of those lists. You know, all those artists that old fashioned radio plays over and over and over... :)
 
Salty Dog said:
They see that iHeart radio and Spotify offer more songs, 20 million according to the posted article, and that's what matters to them.

Free is also a big attraction for IHeartRadio.
 
Pandora's biggest problem is Spotify and not just the service, but the pull they have on labels. Spotify pays labels between $.003 and $.012 per play with an average of between $.006 and $.007 for both radio and on-demand. Several times more than Pandora currently pays at around $0.0012 according to their SEC filling. And the major labels love it. Apple just within the last few weeks tried to get a direct deal from them for around the rate Pandora pays now and were denied. They are now negotiating new rates higher than Pandora pays. The labels have tasted what Spotify can give them and now they will take as much as they can. The major labels are no longer afraid to let Pandora die. Pandora paid $181mil in royalties in 2012, of which only ~$90mil went to the labels. That's a nice amount of money, but at the end of the day it is peanuts compared to what the labels think they will get out of Spotify. Spotify could pay as much as $500mil this year, all of which goes to the labels and Spotify has significantly less users than Pandora. Rhapsody, Rdio, Google Music All Access, Deezer, Xbox Music, and MOG all pay as much or more than Spotify. If Pandora wants to stay relevant, they are going to have to pay. And so will all internet radio services.

Just wait until song writers enter the picture. They want their fair share as well and the numbers they have kicked around are higher than the labels are getting from Spotify. They are beginning to abandon BMI/SESAC/ASCAP in favor of obtaining higher rates on their own.
 
And who will pay for all this? The users. And the users expect to enjoy music for free. Where can they get it? OTA radio.
 
Well Pandora lost $28.6 million last quarter and their rates are gong to increase sharply soon, so someone is going to have to pay.

Sony/ATV is demanding songwriter royalties on par to what the labels get from iRadio and are expected to pull a similar stunt on Pandora next year. That means a good chunk of Pandora's music royalties are going to cost will roughly double what they do today. That's going to hurt.
 
Casey said:
Well Pandora lost $28.6 million last quarter and their rates are gong to increase sharply soon, so someone is going to have to pay.
I wish Pandora well but if it ends badly for them, I'd love to see the reaction of the people who helped kill it. A dead Pandora would not be good for those currently collecting those high rates from them.
 
Those folks feel they're entitled to those royalties. They're creating the content that's attracting all the revenues. They'd rather bankrupt the company that's paying them full value, than give a discount to a company that will stay in business forever. Keep in mind, these are the same people who sue college kids and single moms. No discount! That's the rally cry!
 
TheBigA said:
Those folks feel they're entitled to those royalties. They're creating the content that's attracting all the revenues. They'd rather bankrupt the company that's paying them full value, than give a discount to a company that will stay in business forever.

Because they know that if Pandora goes under, there will be others come to fill that space in the market.
 
PTBoardOp94 said:
TheBigA said:
Those folks feel they're entitled to those royalties. They're creating the content that's attracting all the revenues. They'd rather bankrupt the company that's paying them full value, than give a discount to a company that will stay in business forever.

Because they know that if Pandora goes under, there will be others come to fill that space in the market.
But what I'm reading is that Pandora pays a higher rate than others. If Pandora gets killed off by high royalties, the companies coming up behind it have a pretty good argument for lower rates. Not good for the demanding artists. I simply see no way artists avoid getting harmed if Pandora goes under.
 
But what I'm reading is that Pandora pays a higher rate than others.
[/quote]

Spotify pays more. Apple has offered the same amount as Spotify, and Sony turned them down, holding up their new streaming service. So no...competing companies are offering more than Pandora. The "demanding artists" you talk about have multiple revenue streams, so they won't get hurt. They make more in a short tour than they make in streaming royalties.
 
TheBigA said:
Spotify pays more. Apple has offered the same amount as Spotify, and Sony turned them down, holding up their new streaming service. So no...competing companies are offering more than Pandora. The "demanding artists" you talk about have multiple revenue streams, so they won't get hurt. They make more in a short tour than they make in streaming royalties.
Got it. I don't know a lot about the royalty formulas and who pays what. But taking what you say at face value, and I have no reason to doubt you, why are artists fighting Pandora so hard on royalty rates if it's so insignificant to them? It just seems like the more online services there are, the better for the artists. And if that's true, the last thing they would want is to see Pandora fold. No?
 
Salty Dog said:
And if that's true, the last thing they would want is to see Pandora fold. No?

I agree...but they don't want to subsidize them either. They are entitled by law to certain royalties, and they want to receive them. The quote one label head said was "Your business model is not my problem." So the labels feel Pandora needs to bring in more money. The problem with that is the royalty system is set up such that the more successful Pandora is, the more they have to pay. It's a rigged system.
 
TheBigA said:
I agree...but they don't want to subsidize them either. They are entitled by law to certain royalties, and they want to receive them. The quote one label head said was "Your business model is not my problem." So the labels feel Pandora needs to bring in more money. The problem with that is the royalty system is set up such that the more successful Pandora is, the more they have to pay. It's a rigged system.

And I think it is unsustainable. Something about "killing the goose that laid the golden egg," comes to mind.
 
Chuck said:
And I think it is unsustainable. Something about "killing the goose that laid the golden egg," comes to mind.

You're right, but they don't care. They just want to get paid. This is why there needs to be mediation, and neither side can get 100% of what they want.
 
I was thinking about this yesterday while reading a Warren Buffet speech circa 1999. He was predicting the dot com collapse and telling the audience that it was a mistake to bet on individual high tech companies even though high tech was the big thing. He pulled out a list of all the car companies that once existed. The list included 2,000 companies. But, he said, some years later only 3 were left and those were trading at lower values. And yet, cars were more popular than ever. In that environment the way to make money, he said, would have been to short horses.

Pandora may not make it, but the category of Internet-distributed radio is not likely going away.
 
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