The new krth

[krth101]

I agree completely. For all of KRTHs perceived faults, this will always be remembered as a legendary radio station. I applaud jhani Kaye for respecting it's legacy and staying true to it's history and drake roots. In 3 short months, Rick Thomas has changed this. I understand the reasons behind the changes - perhaps that's why he was chosen to replace jhani. Whether I like the new KRTH is immaterial - however I don't believe this shift in format will work long term. For all the clamor to reduce the 60s music and replace it with 80s - it will be interesting to see if these songs will stand the test of time. And not only is it the addition of these 80s records that have made me and many others decide to turn away from the station, it is also the wholesale changes he has made in the overall *playlist as well. Where jhani was able to add 70s and eventually some 80s, he was able to blend the music seamlessly. To me the station and the music no longer flows. I think history will show the end of this era began with this years interactive labor day countdown. The move to heavier artists such as foreigner, Boston, Kansas as opposed to the more melodic songs of the 60s and*the elimination of many of the jingles has given the station a very different feel in a very short time. There are other avenues for the kind of music KRTH was known for, but none with the same feel, blend of personalities, contests and programming they excelled at, KRTH you will be missed.

 

[Thomps2525]

Would KRTH do well with a format of pop and r&b oldies---no rap or hard rock---from 1954 (Sh-Boom, Gee, Rock Around The Clock, Shake Rattle & Roll, That's All Right Mama) through 1993 (Runaway Train, Come Undone, What Is Love, Another Sad Love Song, All That She Wants)? The slogan: "Forty Years of Hits." Of course such a format will never happen on a major-market FM. *Sigh*

 

[Groove1670]

That playlist would be classified as a train wreck. For a music fan (one that looks at Joel Whitburn's book at least once a week, that would be great. sh-boom and runaway train together will not work. Ask the average 65 year old listener to identify Runaway Train or a 25 year old Sh-boom or Gee ?

When I started in radio I Worked at a MOR station. We played Glen Miller, Herb Alpert, and Connie Francies. At 22 I never paid any attention to them, or really cared for them. Now 25 years later I appreciate them, but I don't care to hear them on the radio.

They interviewed the new artist Lorde on a VEVO clip. (I think she is 17) she implied that she had never heard of Prince.

 

[rbrucecarter5]

They interviewed the new artist Lorde on a VEVO clip. (I think she is 17) she implied that she had never heard of Prince.

Have you heard the song by Lorde? She makes "Friday" sound like a masterpiece. When I heard her sing - my reaction was - "What was THAT?!" I'll go with the opinion of my friend - three top-10's, a platinum album, and a number one on iTunes makes her opinion somewhat compelling. The 80's did produce some great music - but not nearly as much as the 60's when rock and roll really came into its own. My point was - oldies listeners are not necessarily those who grew up listening to the music. It is being discovered by new generations of listeners. One only has to look at sales of the Beatles on iTunes to realize - its not just 55 and over buying it. I think the idea that only elderlies listen to oldies comes from a very few people on this board who obviously have their own agendas for what they want on the radio, and it doesn't include oldies. Unfortunately, they have a lot of influence and people listen to them. Over 55 - you are an outmode: You have no place in society, which would be better off it you didn't exist. Nobody wants to sell things to you (too bad because I am a multi-millionaire), nobody cares about your opinions, nobody thinks your music is any good for advertisers any more. But - what if people under 55 really do like older music instead of the slop from the 80's plus? That sort of upsets the opinions of the radio gods (with a little g). I am sick and tired of age discrimination. I thought that sort of thing was being slowly weeded out of society. I guess I was wrong.

 

[michael hagerty]

I agree completely. For all of KRTHs perceived faults, this will always be remembered as a legendary radio station. I applaud jhani Kaye for respecting it's legacy and staying true to it's history and drake roots. In 3 short months, Rick Thomas has changed this. I understand the reasons behind the changes - perhaps that's why he was chosen to replace jhani. Whether I like the new KRTH is immaterial - however I don't believe this shift in format will work long term. For all the clamor to reduce the 60s music and replace it with 80s - it will be interesting to see if these songs will stand the test of time. And not only is it the addition of these 80s records that have made me and many others decide to turn away from the station, it is also the wholesale changes he has made in the overall *playlist as well. Where jhani was able to add 70s and eventually some 80s, he was able to blend the music seamlessly. To me the station and the music no longer flows. I think history will show the end of this era began with this years interactive labor day countdown. The move to heavier artists such as foreigner, Boston, Kansas as opposed to the more melodic songs of the 60s and*the elimination of many of the jingles has given the station a very different feel in a very short time. There are other avenues for the kind of music KRTH was known for, but none with the same feel, blend of personalities, contests and programming they excelled at, KRTH you will be missed.

They don't have to stand the test of time.

They have to deliver an acceptable number (hopefully more) of people in the key demo now.

The demo is a moving target as people age out and age in.

It was an anomaly that the Oldies format calicified into the same songs from the same era for 20 years.

KRTH will likely be playing different songs 5 years from now, and 5 years after that. And as long as the ratings and revenue are maintained, that's the sign of a healthy, vital radio station as opposed to an audio museum. Or mausoleum.

 

[davideduardo]

The 80's did produce some great music - but not nearly as much as the 60's when rock and roll really came into its own.

That is opinion flavored by conjecture. You like the 60's stuff more than more recent material. Cool.

However, the fact that the audience share and cume rating for oldies stations when they were true oldies (mid-90's to mid 00's) showed that vastly more 45+ and 55+ persons did not listen to that format at all... indicating that they were not pop music partisans or that they had moved on.

Not everyone who grew up musically in the 50's or 60's or 70's likes Top 40 or pop oldies.

My point was - oldies listeners are not necessarily those who grew up listening to the music. It is being discovered by new generations of listeners.

In very small amounts and with limited radio usage. This is more curiosity by a few, not a trend by many.

.I think the idea that only elderlies listen to oldies comes from a very few people on this board who obviously have their own agendas for what they want on the radio, and it doesn't include oldies.

"Oldies" attract a core of 65 and over. Oldies (as defined by Nielsen Audio) is a 60's core pop format. The age of the music and the demos match.

Oldies (when the format really existed with a 60's base or on the few fringe and AM oldies stations) does not do at all well under 55, and produces no salable numbers at all.

Radio stations in transactional markets can't do formats that appeal to audience groups where there is no advertiser money to be had. This has nothing to do with likes and dislikes. It has to do with where the money is.

Unfortunately, they have a lot of influence and people listen to them. Over 55 - you are an outmode: You have no place in society, which would be better off it you didn't exist. Nobody wants to sell things to you

The problem, as mentioned before, is it takes more ads at greater cost to sway a senior and sell something. Most advertisers are going to look at the ROI and say, "NO!!"

(too bad because I am a multi-millionaire),

My experience is that people who say they are millionaires... aren't.

(Cue up that song that goes, "Oh Lord, it's so hard to be humble...")

But - what if people under 55 really do like older music instead of the slop from the 80's plus?

Very few people in their late 30's and 40's and early 50's think that music is "slop". But they find no ongoing appeal in music from earlier decades before they were born.

I am sick and tired of age discrimination. I thought that sort of thing was being slowly weeded out of society. I guess I was wrong.

This is not discrimination. Advertisers put their message where the consumers who are most likely to buy are to be found.

 

[LKellerIII]

My experience is that people who say they are millionaires... aren't.

(Cue up that song that goes, "Oh Lord, it's so hard to be humble...")



Very few people in their late 30's and 40's and early 50's think that music is "slop". But they find no ongoing appeal in music from earlier decades before they were born.

"Millionaire" doesn't mean what it used to. Blame inflation. If you consider my investments, and the equity in the San Francisco house I purchased in 1980, my total worth is well over a million, but I still have to work for a living to pay bills and send my daughter to college.

If you check my iPod, you'd see that my musical tastes run from the 40s to the current decade, but being 61 years old, over 50% of my songs are from the 60s and 70s - given the era I grew up in. I like some current music, but I wouldn't be listening to KIIS-FM more than occasionally. So most 20 and 30 somethings probably hear a significant number of 60s and 70s songs they like, but that doesn't mean they want to listen to it on the radio more than occasionally.

I liked a fair number of MOR songs when I was a kid, but you didn't find me listening to KMPC very often. And if I was, it was usually to hear Gary Owens.

 

[Groove1670]

My comment about the artist Lorde was not about her music....but her knowledge of music...the fact that Prince was a a unfamiliar artist to her.

Now with that said, ask the average 25 year old who are the Marcel's, Steam, Tommy James, Friends Of Distinction, Major Lance, Mungo Jerry, 5th Dimension etc.

that was the point I was trying to make.

 

[Thomps2525]

Well, then I guess there would be no point to me asking if the average 25-year-old is familiar with the music of Dan Quinn, Vess Ossman, Henry Burr, Ada Jones, Billy Murray, George J. Gaskin or the Peerless Quartet. (By the way, Mister musiconradio---Charles Adams Prince, a pianist and celesta player, charted 82 songs with his orchestra between 1905 and 1923. They were billed as "Prince's Orchestra." Yeah---the original Prince in the music industry!)

When some of us were 25, we had two ways to hear music: listen to radio or buy albums. With competition from CDs and digital downloads and iPods and YouTube and Spotify and online channels and satellite radio, the typical classic-hits station probably doesn't have an easy time trying to hang on to younger listeners and such stations don't want older listeners. Who is left?

 

[krth101]

Anomaly is a good way to state it. A 20 year run playing essentially the same records while getting decent ratings is pretty amazing when you think about it and will probably not happen again. Certainly not with 80s and 90s hits. In my opinion KRTH was bigger than just the music. It was the sum of it's parts. It was the overall presentation that made this station so listenable and memorable. Whether it be the jocks, the history, the contests, the jingle package, the processing and more, this was a well programmed radio station. For me, the music became almost secondary even with the repetitiveness noted here many times before. *And even though many of those programming elements remain today, I'm simply finding too many songs that have caused me to tune out and not want to listen as frequently. interestingly, if you look at "the walrus" website in San Diego, you'll see almost identically the new KRTH playlist. *Coincidence? I think not.

 

[Thomps2525]

Nope, the similarity of the playlists of XHPRS (The Walrus) and KRTH is definitely not a coincidence. The XHPRS program director and midday jock is Jay Coffey, who worked at KIQQ, KHJ and KRTH. There ya go!

 

[krth101]

Anomaly is a good way to state it. A 20 year run playing essentially the same records while getting decent ratings is pretty amazing when you think about it and will probably not happen again. Certainly not with 80s and 90s hits. In my opinion KRTH was bigger than just the music. It was the sum of it's parts. It was the overall presentation that made this station so listenable and memorable. Whether it be the jocks, the history, the contests, the jingle package, the processing and more, this was a well programmed radio station. For me, the music became almost secondary even with the repetitiveness noted here many times before. *And even though many of those programming elements remain today, I'm simply finding too many songs that have caused me to tune out and not want to listen as frequently. interestingly, if you look at "the walrus" website in San Diego, you'll see almost identically the new KRTH playlist. *Coincidence? I think not.

 

[krth101]

And didn't I read somewhere that jay was hired to replace the XHPRS program director who in turn moved to KRTH as assistant program director? You're right - no coincidence at all. Interestingly, on the XHPRS there is an option to tell them what you think of their playlist by voting on the individual records. This feature coming soon to KRTH? Wouldn't surprise me.

 

[semoochie]

"Now with that said, ask the average 25 year old who are the Marcel's, Steam, Tommy James, Friends Of Distinction, Major Lance, Mungo Jerry, 5th Dimension etc." I certainly know who these people are but I'm a radio guy. My also 60 year old wife knows the names, "Tommy James" and "The Fifth Dimension" but I can almost guarantee that she doesn't know the others, even though she knows their music. Actually, The Marcels and Major Lance are too old for her to relate.

 

[Willits]

Have you heard the song by Lorde?

Those clicks on Royals would sound awesome with WABC-style reverb. The places where she harmonizes (beatifully, by the way) with herself would sound like a large concert hall or a chuch with the reverb.

 

[michael hagerty]

Nope, the similarity of the playlists of XHPRS (The Walrus) and KRTH is definitely not a coincidence. The XHPRS program director and midday jock is Jay Coffey, who worked at KIQQ, KHJ and KRTH. There ya go!

Apart from Jay having been gone from KRTH for 8 years, having programmed in in the polar opposite fashion, and being the Assistant PD at the Walrus, which means he's not driving, a spot-on analysis, Steve.

All you're seeing is two stations 120 miles apart doing Classic Hits the way it is most likely to succeed in the demo today.

 

[Thomps2525]

So why can't classic-hits formats be customized to fit the local market? A Los Angeles station should be playing a lot of music by the Doors, Byrds, Beach Boys and Buffalo Springfield. A San Diego station would play more songs by Jewel, Stephen Bishop and Jason Mraz. A San Francisco station would emphasize Santana, Jefferson Airplane/Starship and the Grateful Dead. A Detroit station would emphasize Motown and stations in New York and Philadelphia would still play some doo-wop. Why does "most likely to succeed" have to mean that every classic hits station in America is playing the same songs as all the other stations? Or are the concepts of creativity and originality considered passé in today's world of consolidation and cross-ownership and "safe playlists"?

 

[davideduardo]

So why can't classic-hits formats be customized to fit the local market? A Los Angeles station should be playing a lot of music by the Doors, Byrds, Beach Boys and Buffalo Springfield. A San Diego station would play more songs by Jewel, Stephen Bishop and Jason Mraz. A San Francisco station would emphasize Santana, Jefferson Airplane/Starship and the Grateful Dead. A Detroit station would emphasize Motown and stations in New York and Philadelphia would still play some doo-wop. Why does "most likely to succeed" have to mean that every classic hits station in America is playing the same songs as all the other stations? Or are the concepts of creativity and originality considered passé in today's world of consolidation and cross-ownership and "safe playlists"?

The fact is that, 40 to 50 years later, the artists you mention are not more or less liked at the city level. So much of the population is not longer in the same places that they were born or where they grew up that there is far less regional distinction than you would imagine.

In fact, looking at LA, with such huge percentages of Hispanics in all the demos, we have to recognize that artists like the Beach Boys and Buffalo Springfield were non-happenings in Latin America, so many listeners would not want to hear those songs.

In any case, you are talking, mostly, about 60's based artists which are not going to be played in LA or Detroit or anywhere because, in addition to having no special local strength anywhere anymore, they would attract non-salable demos.

 

[Bob Hudson]

So where does KRTH get the audience for its revised format?

I assume that it will lose a portion, maybe much of the old audience, unsaleable as it was, but it needs new listeners and presumably they will have to be lured away from other stations, unless there are a whole of former radio listeners who will come out of retirement to listen to the new KRTH. Barring that, which stations?

In the church business they have a saying about how a pastor who replaces a preacher who served for decades is always going to be an interim pastor, because no matter how hard he tries he'll get compared unfavorably to the old-timer. I suspect that will happen with KRTH and it'll take a couple of PD's rotating through the building before they come up with a workable replacement, if that's even possible without completely blowing out any traces of the legacy format.

Gosh knows Los Angeles just doesn't seem like the market for a station for nostalgic gringos: someone who was 21 in 1983 is 51 today so all this talk about 80's music doesn't sound like something that will bring in loads of young blood.

But then how much change does CBS really need at KRTH? Are they losing lots of money or are they making a profit but maybe not as much as they think they could with that signal? In watching 103.7 in San Diego, it's clear that CBS is not necessarily loaded with good ideas for new formats: they've changed that signal's format every couple of years or less for at least 16 years that I know of. They finally found one that seems to be working, but it took a while, to say the least.

So then, does KRTH need a major tweaking or a rebirth to be viable?

 

[michael hagerty]

So where does KRTH get the audience for its revised format?

I assume that it will lose a portion, maybe much of the old audience, unsaleable as it was, but it needs new listeners and presumably they will have to be lured away from other stations, unless there are a whole of former radio listeners who will come out of retirement to listen to the new KRTH. Barring that, which stations?

In the church business they have a saying about how a pastor who replaces a preacher who served for decades is always going to be an interim pastor, because no matter how hard he tries he'll get compared unfavorably to the old-timer. I suspect that will happen with KRTH and it'll take a couple of PD's rotating through the building before they come up with a workable replacement, if that's even possible without completely blowing out any traces of the legacy format.

Gosh knows Los Angeles just doesn't seem like the market for a station for nostalgic gringos: someone who was 21 in 1983 is 51 today so all this talk about 80's music doesn't sound like something that will bring in loads of young blood.

But then how much change does CBS really need at KRTH? Are they losing lots of money or are they making a profit but maybe not as much as they think they could with that signal? In watching 103.7 in San Diego, it's clear that CBS is not necessarily loaded with good ideas for new formats: they've changed that signal's format every couple of years or less for at least 16 years that I know of. They finally found one that seems to be working, but it took a while, to say the least.

So then, does KRTH need a major tweaking or a rebirth to be viable?

Here's what you need to understand:

No one who buys advertising looks at overall 6+ numbers.

If the listeners in the unsalable demos leave:

a) It has no effect on the salable demo.

b) The salable demo is now a larger percent of your overall audience (looks impressive with side-by-side pie charts in your sales materials)

c) Your average listener age drops and becomes a lot closer to the center of the demo.

As to how they get more of the new listeners, the same as every other station that makes a format adjustment: Advertising, promotion, word of mouth, second-hand exposure in businesses and other public places and by listeners tuning around looking for a song they like. People still use the "Scan" button.

One of the things that has always amazed me is people's tendency to write people younger than themselves off as kids.

While it is true that many high-school and college students don't own radios, KRTH is targeting 40-year-olds.

These are grownups...Moms and Dads with Tweens and Teens and jobs and mortgages.

And radios.

KRTH has a lot further to go than, say, AMP, before they run into the "what's radio" problem. Actually, if you buy that particular prevailing wisdom AMP and KIIS should be gasping for air by now. Clearly not happening.

Finally, your "nostalgic gringos" comment.

KRTH's current sound has decent ethnic appeal. Yeah, the music probably is still a little old...but now, they're in a better position to evolve it steadily over the next few years, with a group of listeners who will perceive it as KRTH getting better.